This is a discussion of design. Yes, I could choose to just do something if I had self control. Obviously I could choose to just play the game my way and not skip. But either way, you still criticize the game for even having that, and your podcast wouldn't be about not playing Borderlands because you're at a different level than people, it would be making fun of all the people who grinded for loot and paid $50 to do so.
You (Rym) want to play this game for an entirely different reason than is intended, and want it to be changed as such. While adding this additional option would make you play the game, it cheapens the experience for others. It also increases the ever present problem of people just coming into your game with the best guns because they chose to play the game that way. Right now this is from hacking, but in your scenario, they just played at the level 50 area for 10 hours and got what you couldn't get to randomly drop after 50 hours of play time. The game you describe, it is foolish to ever play for any amount of time not grinding, unless you actually enjoy that act.
My end point is that this version of Borderlands is actually not any more fun for you. It simply lets you cut to the portions of the game you feel like seeing, a la watching Poker Night at the Inventory cutscenes on Youtube. If Poker Night just made all the cutscenes available in a video player when you bought the game, what's the point of buying and playing the game? Unless you want to just play Poker, in which case you're spending a lot of extra money.
You still haven't adequately addressed my simple point.
Why did anyone ever beat Doom 2 on hard mode? They could trivially have cheated to be invincible and skip to the end, and also could have chosen an easier difficulty.
The game's "goal" is clearly to defeat Satan and beat the game.
So, why did anyone not do these things? Why did anyone beat the game on hard without cheating?
Also, how does someone else cheating IN ANY WAY affect your enjoyment of the game?
In other words, Axel, if I was to take your argument seriously, it would imply that the "optimal" way to play any video game at all would be to get a memory editor and flip all the bits into the most "optimal" configuration; e.g. in Borderlands, you would flip all the bits into the configuration that represents the absolute phattest possible lewt.
Why don't you hack the game? By your own argument, that is clearly "optimal".
It also increases the ever present problem of people just coming into your game with the best guns because they chose to play the game that way. Right now this is from hacking, but in your scenario, they just played at the level 50 area for 10 hours and got what you couldn't get to randomly drop after 50 hours of play time.
There is zero difference to you between another playing grinding out an item "legitimately," buying the item with real money, hacking the game to have said item, or choosing the item from a character editor.
No, the goal of Doom 2 was to be a challenging shooter. The utility it seeks to provide is a feeling of challenge and accomplishment when you win. Beating enemies and completing things gives no reward other than getting further. Skipping to the end just to see the end doesn't fulfill that utility.
Borderlands 2's main story is pretty fucking easy, and I highly doubt anyone was seeking to make you feel great for simply winning. Getting there is honestly not all that difficult. It has a different utility than simply beating the game. If I can skip to the end and get loot more easily, it fulfills Borderlands utility of earning cool loot and drops.
No, the goal of Doom 2 was to be a challenging shooter. The utility it seeks to provide is a feeling of challenge and accomplishment when you win. Beating enemies and completing things gives no reward other than getting further. Skipping to the end just to see the end doesn't fulfill that utility.
Borderlands 2's main story is pretty fucking easy, and I highly doubt anyone was seeking to make you feel great for simply winning. Getting there is honestly not all that difficult. It has a different utility than simply beating the game. If I can skip to the end and get loot more easily, it fulfills Borderlands utility of earning cool loot and drops.
What about Diablo II? Does the mere existence of character editors mean the game is 100% ruined and unplayable as a single-player or co-op game?
No, the goal of Doom 2 was to be a challenging shooter. The utility it seeks to provide is a feeling of challenge and accomplishment when you win. Beating enemies and completing things gives no reward other than getting further. Skipping to the end just to see the end doesn't fulfill that utility.
Borderlands 2's main story is pretty fucking easy, and I highly doubt anyone was seeking to make you feel great for simply winning. Getting there is honestly not all that difficult. It has a different utility than simply beating the game. If I can skip to the end and get loot more easily, it fulfills Borderlands utility of earning cool loot and drops.
What about Diablo II? Does the mere existence of character editors mean the game is 100% ruined and unplayable as a single-player or co-op game?
Many people actually view the game that way. Most people I listen to say that the experience of the game was ruined by hackers.
As single-player? No, not necessarily. But I think it ruins the multiplayer.
As single-player? No, not necessarily. But I think it ruins the multiplayer.
How, and why?
It completely ruins free online multiplayer due to the intrusion of hackers. That parts out. Limited friend-circle co-op is more possible, but it relies on trust and every player wanting to experience the repetitive click fest to get lots of loot. Much like Borderlands, you have to choose non-fun gameplay to get to the utility. The chances of you having people who are willing to do this is lower.
Because this was so prevalent, Blizzard added all of its character storing, online-only bullshit for Diablo III. But because they wanted people to still play, they added the auction house so people could still circumvent the entire loot system and just get the loot...Making the game part completely pointless. Literally everyone (who didn't use it to farm and make money irl) complained about this and the auction house is getting shut down.
Adding options to Borderlands that remove the need to actually PLAY the content cheapens the game experience.
Finding a way to let people at different levels enjoy co-op is a noble goal. I can acknowledge that. But Rym's suggestions are not a good way to solve that.
But that argument is ultimately different to Rym's suggestions for BL2. It already has character editors. They're just not built-in game options.
Sure, and I brought it up as an extreme case. However, the fact that such things exist and yet you don't use them clearly demonstrates that this "loot utility function" of yours is not 100% universal and absolute; clearly it has boundaries.
Obviously external character editors shouldn't be necessary. From the perspective of good game design, doing what Rym wants is simply a matter of putting up a sufficient and obvious barrier between the game proper and Rym's functionality so that instead of going for the automaton action of "GET THE LOOT", you have time to stop and think and actually make a reasoned decision.
Why can't I just pick a character, set their level and abilities each time a multi-player game starts then?
What happens to that loot? Does the character just get saved and you get to keep the loot? Or is the character gone and the loot gone?
If you just get a character with loot to play when you go into multiplayer and don't get to keep it, that honestly doesn't break the game and is an okay solution. However, I can't see most players liking that as then they just get a mediocre shooter experience (If we're going by Rym's definition that slow non-twitch shooters are boring)
But that argument is ultimately different to Rym's suggestions for BL2. It already has character editors. They're just not built-in game options.
Sure, and I brought it up as an extreme case. However, the fact that such things exist and yet you don't use them clearly demonstrates that this "loot utility function" of yours is not 100% universal and absolute; clearly it has boundaries.
Obviously external character editors shouldn't be necessary. From the perspective of good game design, doing what Rym wants is simply a matter of putting up a sufficient and obvious barrier between the game proper and Rym's functionality so that instead of going for the automaton action of "GET THE LOOT", you have time to stop and think and actually make a reasoned decision.
Adding what Rym wants doesn't really add said functionality. The game will just place at the same situation as before, you just skipped the process of getting the items that let you kill the enemy fast enough before it kills you. There is not that level of nuance already in the game. More than just this issue would need to be changed to provide that.
If his problem is that it is really simple and not nuanced, then again, he's looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.
What happens to that loot? Does the character just get saved and you get to keep the loot? Or is the character gone and the loot gone
Why in fuck do you care what happens to some other player's loot?
If I'm the player, I care. I'm saying if this feature exists and it's going to be used by people, I want to know what the effects are. If my friend is a higher level and wants me to play with them using this feature, I want to know what happens. Do I just get a character and then lose said character? If so, I'm not sure I want to. My fun in Borderlands is playing the game and building up my loot that does silly things. If he just wants me to come shoot things, there are lots of games that do that aspect better.
My fun in Borderlands is playing the game and building up my loot that does silly things. If he just wants me to come shoot things, there are lots of games that do that aspect better.
So why do you care that other people could enjoy the game differently without affecting you?
My fun in Borderlands is playing the game and building up my loot that does silly things. If he just wants me to come shoot things, there are lots of games that do that aspect better.
So why do you care that other people could enjoy the game differently without affecting you?
I just find it curious. Would you really enjoy just the shooting part of BL2 without anything else? I find it has much the same problems of TF2 in that regard, a game which you have railed on endlessly for the inherent nature of its gunplay.
If this is all you seek, then I guess I can understand. I just find that it goes against the nature of what BL2 is about, since it doesn't care about meaningful gunplay, just about mass murder and loot.
I just find it curious. Do you honestly enjoy collecting semi-random, mostly meaningless "loot" within a single, effectively single-player game? Loot that has almost zero effect on the rest of the game, and actually zero effect outside of it?
I enjoy skinner boxes giving me small boosts of happiness?
I mean, I wouldn't choose that loot over like, other activities that also provide happiness or anything. But if I'm in a bad mood, it's a good way to deal with that.
Why can't I just pick a character, set their level and abilities each time a multi-player game starts then?
What happens to that loot? Does the character just get saved and you get to keep the loot? Or is the character gone and the loot gone?
Yes and yes. This will ensure everyone is at the same level and can have the best experience. Have a "safe box" for your personal weapons of choice for each class.
But also from a design perspective I think what you said was very short sighted and would simply make Borderlands a game you would play for a little while and wasn't actually for the benefit of the game for anyone else.
But also from a design perspective I think what you said was very short sighted and would simply make Borderlands a game you would play for a little while and wasn't actually for the benefit of the game for anyone else.
Yes, but it's not difficult to implement, and not to the detriment of those people.
Who is harmed if Rym plays the game his own way for a little while, while everyone else plays their way like they were already doing before?
But also from a design perspective I think what you said was very short sighted and would simply make Borderlands a game you would play for a little while and wasn't actually for the benefit of the game for anyone else.
Yes, but it's not difficult to implement, and not to the detriment of those people.
Maybe so. I still think it's a foolish thing to add and it messes up the whole idea of it.
Comments
You (Rym) want to play this game for an entirely different reason than is intended, and want it to be changed as such. While adding this additional option would make you play the game, it cheapens the experience for others. It also increases the ever present problem of people just coming into your game with the best guns because they chose to play the game that way. Right now this is from hacking, but in your scenario, they just played at the level 50 area for 10 hours and got what you couldn't get to randomly drop after 50 hours of play time. The game you describe, it is foolish to ever play for any amount of time not grinding, unless you actually enjoy that act.
My end point is that this version of Borderlands is actually not any more fun for you. It simply lets you cut to the portions of the game you feel like seeing, a la watching Poker Night at the Inventory cutscenes on Youtube. If Poker Night just made all the cutscenes available in a video player when you bought the game, what's the point of buying and playing the game? Unless you want to just play Poker, in which case you're spending a lot of extra money.
Why did anyone ever beat Doom 2 on hard mode? They could trivially have cheated to be invincible and skip to the end, and also could have chosen an easier difficulty.
The game's "goal" is clearly to defeat Satan and beat the game.
So, why did anyone not do these things? Why did anyone beat the game on hard without cheating?
Also, how does someone else cheating IN ANY WAY affect your enjoyment of the game?
Why don't you hack the game? By your own argument, that is clearly "optimal".
Borderlands 2's main story is pretty fucking easy, and I highly doubt anyone was seeking to make you feel great for simply winning. Getting there is honestly not all that difficult. It has a different utility than simply beating the game. If I can skip to the end and get loot more easily, it fulfills Borderlands utility of earning cool loot and drops.
As single-player? No, not necessarily. But I think it ruins the multiplayer.
Limited friend-circle co-op is more possible, but it relies on trust and every player wanting to experience the repetitive click fest to get lots of loot. Much like Borderlands, you have to choose non-fun gameplay to get to the utility. The chances of you having people who are willing to do this is lower.
Because this was so prevalent, Blizzard added all of its character storing, online-only bullshit for Diablo III. But because they wanted people to still play, they added the auction house so people could still circumvent the entire loot system and just get the loot...Making the game part completely pointless. Literally everyone (who didn't use it to farm and make money irl) complained about this and the auction house is getting shut down.
Adding options to Borderlands that remove the need to actually PLAY the content cheapens the game experience.
Finding a way to let people at different levels enjoy co-op is a noble goal. I can acknowledge that. But Rym's suggestions are not a good way to solve that.
Obviously external character editors shouldn't be necessary. From the perspective of good game design, doing what Rym wants is simply a matter of putting up a sufficient and obvious barrier between the game proper and Rym's functionality so that instead of going for the automaton action of "GET THE LOOT", you have time to stop and think and actually make a reasoned decision.
If you just get a character with loot to play when you go into multiplayer and don't get to keep it, that honestly doesn't break the game and is an okay solution. However, I can't see most players liking that as then they just get a mediocre shooter experience (If we're going by Rym's definition that slow non-twitch shooters are boring)
Is the end goal meaningful?
Is the game just contextual mechanics to drive a story?
Is the game just a meaningful challenge?
Is it fun......?
If his problem is that it is really simple and not nuanced, then again, he's looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.
If this is all you seek, then I guess I can understand. I just find that it goes against the nature of what BL2 is about, since it doesn't care about meaningful gunplay, just about mass murder and loot.
I mean, I wouldn't choose that loot over like, other activities that also provide happiness or anything. But if I'm in a bad mood, it's a good way to deal with that.
Who is harmed if Rym plays the game his own way for a little while, while everyone else plays their way like they were already doing before?