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  • Sounds like this study would have us ban people from being black as it is a leading cause of gun death.
    Why don't we just ban poverty and mental illness? Problem solved! ;^)
    Perfect! Put them in prisons and work houses! That will solve it! :)

  • edited July 2012
    Yeah I was just wondering what counts as "properly" storing a gun. People are quick to blame the parents, so I wonder if any amount of precaution is negated if a kid gets it at all. Also at what age is it okay to blame the kid? A 14 yr old is certainly smart enough to get the gun from a hiding spot or safe (maybe by snooping and getting the combo/key) and possibly load it. So many factors..
    That's why you tell the kid what the gun is and teach him about how to safely handle it. You don't have to teach him how to shoot it, just how not to kill someone. If the grandparents are guilty of anything it's in not properly instructing their child.

    Don't start in on him being too young either. You can teach a child gun safety at 5 years old (I learned to shoot when I was 8). A 14year old can, despite youthful stupidity, be taught how not to accidentally shoot someone.

    So its ALWAYS the parent's fault? Wow. Like a kid never has a mind of its own. Like if you tell it to not do something, it will NEVER do that thing. Seriously, I don't have kids, and I know better than that.

    Yes you SHOULD teach them proper gun safety, etc etc. But in the end you are just trusting that your kid doesn't do it anyway. Didn't we already have the argument in another thread about parents being / not being at fault for everything their kid does?
    Post edited by Lyddi on
  • Uh oh. So much for gun safes. Apparently some of the best selling gun safes on the market can be trivially opened by a 3 year old. Some of them only need to be rocked back and forth a few times to give up the ghost and open up.
  • There are more studies that I can list which prove that children do not develop the full mental capacity for considering consequences until they are close to adulthood. It's a ramp up, and as such, some will always be behind/ahead.
  • edited July 2012
    That's why you tell the kid what the gun is and teach him about how to safely handle it. You don't have to teach him how to shoot it, just how not to kill someone. If the grandparents are guilty of anything it's in not properly instructing their child.

    Don't start in on him being too young either. You can teach a child gun safety at 5 years old (I learned to shoot when I was 8). A 14year old can, despite youthful stupidity, be taught how not to accidentally shoot someone.

    So its ALWAYS the parent's fault? Wow. Like a kid never has a mind of its own. Like if you tell it to not do something, it will NEVER do that thing. Seriously, I don't have kids, and I know better than that.

    Yes you SHOULD teach them proper gun safety, etc etc. But in the end you are just trusting that your kid doesn't do it anyway. Didn't we already have the argument in another thread about parents being / not being at fault for everything their kid does?
    Whoa now. I' not implying the parents are always to blame, I'm saying that proper training is an important step in gun safety and that neglecting that step is serious folly. It doesn't matter how smart your kid is, if you never TRY to teach them, then you ARE to blame.

    If a child is bound and determined to hurt him/herself there is very little a parent can reasonably do to stop him/her. You do what you can and hope for the best.
    Post edited by Drunken Butler on
  • Sounds like this study would have us ban people from being black as it is a leading cause of gun death.
    Whoa, there, fella. Being black does not cause gun deaths. This is that correlation vs. causation thing we keep talking about.
  • Sounds like this study would have us ban people from being black as it is a leading cause of gun death.
    Whoa, there, fella. Being black does not cause gun deaths. This is that correlation vs. causation thing we keep talking about.
    That's exactly right. It's being born in an area with lots of shootings that causes you to be black.
  • edited July 2012
    Sounds like this study would have us ban people from being black as it is a leading cause of gun death.
    Whoa, there, fella. Being black does not cause gun deaths. This is that correlation vs. causation thing we keep talking about.
    That's exactly right. It's being born in an area with lots of shootings that causes you to be black.
    Guys, Rym already pointed it out. Living in poverty and being mentally ill is what causes you to be black.
    Sounds like this study would have us ban people from being black as it is a leading cause of gun death.
    Why don't we just ban poverty and mental illness? Problem solved! ;^)
    Post edited by Matt on
  • The fact is the kid should have have been able to access the gun unsupervised. Someone fucked up if the kid did in fact access the gun unsupervised.
    You only have to be 13 to get a hunting permit in NYS. I get suspicious of anyone over the age of 10 accidently shooting someone.

    Should gun safety be taught in schools? We kind of have an "abstinence only" policy right now. "If you see a gun, NEVER TOUCH IT!"
  • RymRym
    edited July 2012
    The fact is the kid should have have been able to access the gun unsupervised. Someone fucked up if the kid did in fact access the gun unsupervised.
    You only have to be 13 to get a hunting permit in NYS. I get suspicious of anyone over the age of 10 accidently shooting someone.
    The scary thing? A good portion of the gun fatalities in young children are effectively homicide, with displayed intent, often from troubled youths. Another large percentage is suicide.

    It appears that young children will on average "fuck around with" a gun more likely than not no matter how well trained they are.

    Post edited by Rym on
  • edited July 2012

    The scary thing? A good portion of the gun fatalities in young children are effectively homicide, with displayed intent, often from troubled youths. Another large percentage is suicide.

    It appears that young children will on average "fuck around with" a gun more likely than not no matter how well trained they are.
    Training teaches you how to use one properly. It prevents accidents. Homicide and suicide are not accidents and thus not applicable to our current conversation.

    Troubled kids are a whole different bag.
    Post edited by Drunken Butler on
  • Training teaches you how to use one properly. It prevents accidents. Homicide and suicide are not accidents and thus not applicable to our current conversation.

    Troubled kids are a whole different bag.
    What about the case of those faulty gun safes that even 3 years old can crack? Granted, the proper course of action would probably be to go after their manufacturers... but still...
  • The scary thing? A good portion of the gun fatalities in young children are effectively homicide, with displayed intent, often from troubled youths. Another large percentage is suicide.

    It appears that young children will on average "fuck around with" a gun more likely than not no matter how well trained they are.
    Both are tragic but will happen regardless of if a gun is available or not.

    Kids "fuck around with" everything. Knives, stick, fire, explosives, genitals,,, you name it. They touch it.

    More kids are killed each year riding bikes irresponsibly then handling guns irresponsibly. Lets ban bikes!!!!

    http://www.helmets.org/stats.htm#child http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_children_are_killed_each_year_by_gun_accidents
  • I'm not exactly against helmet laws for minors in bicycles.
  • RymRym
    edited July 2012
    Here's a hypothetical. Suppose there were incontrovertible evidence that a parent keeping a handgun and ammunition in a home, even secured, statistically significantly increased the absolute likelihood that a child in that home would die before the age of 17. This means that the risk of death is in an absolute sense higher where the gun is present even when situations where the gun would reduce the liklihood of other specific causes of death are taken into account.

    In that case, what percentage increase in absolute risk of premature death is acceptable?

    Note that the parameters allow for gun ownership and use by both parent and child: they only preclude keeping the ammunition and the gun in the house together

    So what's the line in this case?
    Post edited by Rym on
  • First off I'm surprised some folks on here still don't recognize sarcasm while others do.

    Secondly I don't believe there is an age when youngings grow up and realize their actions have consequences. That is something that has to be learned via experience. Some folks my age have not learned that.
  • What is the absolutely risk for having chemical cleaners in the house?
  • I'm not exactly against helmet laws for minors in bicycles.
    That's a false equivalency. This discussion isn't about safety devices like helmets. Firearms all ready have safety features, and most are required by law to meet assorted safety criteria (drop tests etc.)
  • Any. It's my freedom to make that choice. It's not always a great idea, but it should still be a choice.

    I'm just dicking around but the next two points are for serious:

    #1 I think using a 3D printer to make a gun is bad ass, but you should still need to register and put a serial number on it.

    #2 I remember disposable guns made of plastic in an old Cyberpunk game and never thought they'd be a legitimate possibility for real criminals. I have recently changed my mind on that topic.
  • Oh, I have a fairly ambivalent stance on gun ownership in any absolute sense.

    I question the logic of actually expecting one to be useful as a weapon of self defense, and I specifically support specific bans on weapons in specific places, like New York. But beyond that, I'm largely indifferent to the regulation on them aside from expecting basic things like background checks and training requirements.

  • #1 I think using a 3D printer to make a gun is bad ass, but you should still need to register and put a serial number on it.
    Current gun law is equipped to Handel this just fine. As it stands you cannot legally manufacture guns for resale without being licensed, and individuals making firearms for their own use isn't anything new.

    There is a strict limit on how many you can make for your own use without it counting as manufacturing as well.

    #2 I remember disposable guns made of plastic in an old Cyberpunk game and never thought they'd be a legitimate possibility for real criminals. I have recently changed my mind on that topic.
    They aren't and wont be until we figure out the barrels and springs and such. As it is you can already buy a belly gun for less than $250. Ever heard of a Saturday night special?

    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/2-SCCYCPX2CB


    Most states have laws requiring that certain portions of firearms have minimum melting points to prevent them from being made from really cheap alloys. Those same laws would apply to any firearm that tried to make those pieces out of plastic.
  • edited July 2012
    Here's a hypothetical. Suppose there were incontrovertible evidence that a parent keeping a handgun and ammunition in a home, even secured, statistically significantly increased the absolute likelihood that a child in that home would die before the age of 17. This means that the risk of death is in an absolute sense higher where the gun is present even when situations where the gun would reduce the liklihood of other specific causes of death are taken into account.

    In that case, what percentage increase in absolute risk of premature death is acceptable?
    Offhand, and in the general case, a first guess is something like 0.1%. However, this depends on whether, and how much, the gun also causes reduction in the likelihoods of other kinds of negative outcomes.

    Less generally, there may be ways to significantly mitigate the risk of accident as compared to the statistics for this hypothetical evidence. For example, properly training the child in appropriate handling of a gun might remove much of the risk.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • Who sells steak and seafood door to door?
  • Someone who wants to get shot.
  • edited July 2012
    Who sells steak and seafood door to door?
    I am not sure about everywhere but it is quite common in the southeast. I remember when I was living with a friend, a few nights I got home around midnight someone was walking the streets selling shrimp. Now that is weird.
    Post edited by canine224 on
  • I'm not exactly against helmet laws for minors in bicycles.
    That's a false equivalency. This discussion isn't about safety devices like helmets. Firearms all ready have safety features, and most are required by law to meet assorted safety criteria (drop tests etc.)
    Having been trained by an NRA certified instructor (and my father no less) a gun safety is a device that can and will fail. Best safety is your own brain, and unfortunately a kid's brain is no better than the mechanical safety.
  • Another shooting in unfolding, this time at a Sikh temple in Milwaukee.
    http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/05/breaking-reports-of-shooting-at-sikh-temple/?hpt=hp_t1
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