Then, Scott, why are people still doing it? Why did grown men cry when Eddie Guerrero(and yes, Chris Benoit, we didn't know how messed up he was back then) won the world belts(there were two world belts then, there are three now, I'm not going to go into it right now)? Why do people risk serious injury trying new moves? There is something to pro wrestling that I think you are refusing to acknowledge and I don't think it's fair for you to completely blow it off the way you are. There are much, much easier ways for an athlete to make money. As I said before, I'll try to post some Netflixable things when I'm feeling better, or see if I can find some things on Youtube when I'm next on the library's wireless net
Then, Scott, why are people still doing it? Why did grown men cry when Eddie Guerrero(and yes, Chris Benoit, we didn't know how messed up he was back then) won the world belts(there were two world belts then, there are three now, I'm not going to go into it right now)? Why do people risk serious injury trying new moves? There is something to pro wrestling that I think you are refusing to acknowledge and I don't think it's fair for you to completely blow it off the way you are. There are much, much easier ways for an athlete to make money. As I said before, I'll try to post some Netflixable things when I'm feeling better, or see if I can find some things on Youtube when I'm next on the library's wireless net
Some of them are insane, e.g: The Ultimate Warrior. Some of them do it for money. Some of them do it because it is one of the only high paying jobs you can get when your only skill is that you are a muscle-man. Some wrestlers who actually have acting skills use it as a stepping stone towards greater things, e.g: Hulk Hogan, Roddy Piper, Captain Lou, and The Rock.
Many people do many things for many reasons. Just because people are willing and able to create some form of entertainment doesn't mean that form of entertainment is suddenly intelligent, interesting, worthwhile, or high-brow. Case in point, NASCAR.
It seems like no matter what I do I won't be able to convince you Scott. Your mind is made up. You hate it. Fine. I'm not in the mood to talk to a brick wall, especially where we're talking about something I'd need to show examples of to help the argument.
Why did grown men cry when Eddie Guerrero(and yes, Chris Benoit, we didn't know how messed up he was back then) won the world belts(there were two world belts then, there are three now, I'm not going to go into it right now)?
Wow, if you cry for that, then you are a huge nerd.
Benoit and Eddie were two guys who should not have made it anywhere near as far as they did, and a lot of people kind of grew up with them, watching them in Japan/Mexico, ECW, WCW, and then WWF/E. They were small(about 5'8" each) when they don't even take trainees into OVW, the minor league of WWE unless you're 6'2" and 250 lbs or a great independant wrestler and not only became fan favorites, but became big enough stars that at the 20th Wrestlemania, Vince Macmahon decided to have Eddie retain his belt and Chris win one, then go off the air with them celebrating together after 10 years of traveling the world together, and both spending about 20 years in the business. It was the culmination of dreams come true. I personally don't remember if I cried, but it was a powerful moment in wrestling, now tainted by the actions of Chris Benoit. It was Rocky in semi real life.
I don't watch pro wrestling very often, but when I do, I find it entertaining for the same reason as a shonen fighting show, or, even more so, Fist of the North Star. Sure, the violence is ridiculous, but it's more impressive because it's in live action.
This is interesting, it seems my definition of nerd and geek are different from most people's.
Nerd: someone who studies a lot and worries about their grades, what college they want to get into and other academic stuff Geek: someone who is obsessively knowledgeable about certain topics like sports, computers, anime, scifi. Geeks can be cool, dorky or something in between Dork - someone know lacks social skills or awareness
Geek: obsessive over a small number of interests, is able to communicate effectively with mainstream people as well as other geeks/nerds/dorks, more intelligent than mainstream members of the public but generally less intelligent than nerds, kind of a crossover between mainstream individual and nerd, more interested in doing than studying.
Nerd: highly intellectual, probably achieved very good grades in school, generally anti-social, more varied in their interests than geeks, more interested in studying than doing, different individuals who don't mesh well with the general public.
Dork: socially inept to the highest degree, lacks motivation, watches alot of television/plays alot of games, extremely lazy, lives with parents until 35 but never leaves hometown, visits parents daily even after moving out, financially supported by mother for life, lacks proper hygiene, intelligence can vary between super-genius to functionally retarded, masturbates frequently, unable to communicate with other human beings, not interested in studying or doing, but prefers to watch daytime television.
I consider myself to be a cross between a geek and a nerd.
Just because people are willing and able to create some form of entertainment doesn't mean that form of entertainment is suddenly intelligent, interesting, worthwhile, or high-brow. Case in point, NASCAR.
I don't really think that anyone, anywhere, ever, has made a case for wrasslin' being high-brow or intelligent.
To be truthful, I do watch pro wrestling sometimes and, honestly, I think it's something you either get or don't, most people don't and that's cool. But the argument against wrestling, the "lawl, it's fake" one, that I hear most often sorta confuses me in that, okay, everyone watches movies which, by definition unless they're a documentary, have real people playing characters acting out fake situations made to look real, wrestling is essentially that but with a focus on fake in-ring combat. It's one thing if a person simply doesn't like wrestling or finds it unpleasant to watch (see the argument Scott was making up there) but it's my opinion that wrestling is only semantically different from a b-action movie: the plot's stupid, the acting is marginal and it looks fake as all fuck but got-damn if it isn't entertaining when you're in the right mood.
I find it entertaining for the same reason as a shonen fighting show, or, even more so, Fist of the North Star
I don't find shounen fighting shows entertaining. I don't find staged wrestling entertaining. I can appreciate them on an ironic level in certain circumstances (watching in a group at a party while drinking, for example), but otherwise I find them devoid of entertaining or redeeming qualities.
but otherwise I find them devoid of entertaining or redeeming qualities.
That's an interesting point, are you essentially saying that you can't enjoy brainless things without irony? Does something have to be intelligent/meaningful in order to be good?
(watching in a group at a party while drinking, for example)
This is probably the best way to watch pro wrestling.
Does something have to be intelligent/meaningful in order to be good?
More often then not, yes.
Why do you believe that? Granted, I think, say, The Godfather is a far better film in every respect than, say, Big Trouble In Little China, but sometimes you don't want to be invested in a deep and meaningful epic, sometimes Bad Boys 2 and a WWE program are just what the doctor ordered.
That's an interesting point, are you essentially saying that you can't enjoy brainless things without irony?I most definitely cannot.
Does something have to be intelligent/meaningful in order to be good? It has to either be that, or be such the antithesis of that that the enjoyment becomes purely meta.
This is probably the best way to watch pro wrestling.That it is.
Why do you believe that? Granted, I think, say, The Godfather is a far better film in every respect than, say, Big Trouble In Little China, but sometimes you don't want to be invested in a deep and meaningful epic, sometimes Bad Boys 2 and a WWE program are just what the doctor ordered.
Why would I waste my time on something that means little to nothing? I would rather learn or be intellectually stimulated than watch/do frivolous activities. My time is more valuable than Lethal Weapon 29.
That's an interesting point, are you essentially saying that you can't enjoy brainless things without irony?
I most definitely cannot.
Does something have to be intelligent/meaningful in order to be good?
It has to either be that, or be such the antithesis of that that the enjoyment becomes purely meta.
This is probably the best way to watch pro wrestling.
That it is.
Yeah, that's cool. I'm just saying that I think trashy entertainment (like pro wrestling) has its place, in that it can be enjoyed (provided you have to right mindset) without any emotional or intellectual investment, it's much easier to watch and be entertained by when you're tired or lazy or just plain don't want to watch the Evangelions of the world at that moment.
And I think Hitman Hart takes good-old wrasslin' far too seriously
Why do you believe that? Granted, I think, say, The Godfather is a far better film in every respect than, say, Big Trouble In Little China, but sometimes you don't want to be invested in a deep and meaningful epic, sometimes Bad Boys 2 and a WWE program are just what the doctor ordered.
Why would I waste my time on something that means little to nothing? I would rather learn or be intellectually stimulated than watch/do frivolous activities. My time is more valuable than Lethal Weapon 29.
Sometimes frivolous thing have their place if you don't want to be intellectually stimulated but simply want to be entertained. Granted, I think you're right, but I just have a different mindset.
Sometimes frivolous thing have their place if you don't want to be intellectually stimulated but simply want to be entertained. Granted, I think you're right, but I just have a different mindset.
For us, intellectual stimulation and entertainment are synonymous.
Sometimes frivolous thing have their place if you don't want to be intellectually stimulated but simply want to be entertained. Granted, I think you're right, but I just have a different mindset.
For us, intellectual stimulation and entertainment are synonymous.
Okay, that clears that up. Although, why is that? Just your personal mindset?
I used to watch wrestling all the time on Sky-One while in Germany. I used to watch it a ton in the 80's as well. Anyone else remember the bad WWF cartoon?
I also remember when Andre the Giant died... He was awesome in The Princess Bride and I recall him saying that making that movie was one of the happiest times of his life.
Wrestling is a lot like a role playing game. It's not just the combat, it's what happens between battles. In the late 80's and early 90's (when I still watched) there was always a web of intrigue going on in the background. The simple fact that the camera was showing you this told you that it was staged for your benefit. How boring would a movie be if you were only able to see events transpire where the characters on screen always knew the camera was there?
Wrestling is about suspension of disbelief. Though things are staged (who will win) sometimes things don't go that way. I have read a few autobiographies of wrestlers and one thing they point out is that if you decide to go rogue and break script you better be ready for the consequences. It's one thing if there is an accident and someone gets hurt but it is something entirely different if someone just decides to cause an "accident".
Heck, I even created a Wrestling CCG long before the WWF Raw CCG came out! I had just begun making calls around to publishers when Comic Images announced they had acquired a WWF CCG license. Missed it by 7 days!
Sometimes frivolous thing have their place if you don't want to be intellectually stimulated but simply want to be entertained. Granted, I think you're right, but I just have a different mindset.
For us, intellectual stimulation and entertainment are synonymous.
Okay, that clears that up. Although, why is that? Just your personal mindset?
I don't know. Why do you enjoy mindless things?
I mean, hell, why does anyone enjoy anything? You just do.
Provides me a "low-impact" (if you'd like to term it that way) form of entertainment when I just want to be entertained without an investment in the work. Granted, there's good mindless and bad mindless: Bad Boys 2 is good mindless, Love Hina is bad mindless
I mean, hell, why does anyone enjoy anything? You just do.
S ometimes frivolous thing have their place if you don't want to be intellectually stimulated but simply want to be entertained.If I don't want to be intellectually stimulated, I sleep. I'd rather return to my normal level of mental acuity quickly after a period of real rest than slow burn a minimally stimulating experience for no good reason.
Although, why is that? Just your personal mindset?If something isn't intellectually stimulating or in some way meaningful, it has no entertainment value to me. With such a lack, engaging it is the same as engaging nothing. Doing something mindless serves no purpose, brings no benefit, precludes other activity (even rest), and leaves no lasting impression.
S ometimes frivolous thing have their place if you don't want to be intellectually stimulated but simply want to be entertained.
If I don't want to be intellectually stimulated, I sleep. I'd rather return to my normal level of mental acuity quickly after a period of real rest than slow burn a minimally stimulating experience for no good reason.
Although, why is that? Just your personal mindset?
If something isn't intellectually stimulating or in some way meaningful, it has no entertainment value to me. With such a lack, engaging it is the same as engagingnothing. Doing something mindless serves no purpose, brings no benefit, precludes other activity (even rest), and leaves no lasting impression.
Okay, cool, that all makes perfect sense, I think that this just comes down to a "you're you and I'm me" thing.
Personally, I'm fine with the occasional mindless entertainment. Constantly utilizing one's brain can be tiring, much like physical exercise. And, like physical exercise, you can burn out your brain trying to keep too many things going at once, a lot like overtraining muscles. I prefer challenging activities, both physically and mentally, but I need my occasional B-movie entertainment.
Personally, I'm fine with the occasional mindless entertainment. Constantly utilizing one's brain can be tiring, much like physical exercise. And, like physical exercise, you can burn out your brain trying to keep too many things going at once, a lot like overtraining muscles. I prefer challenging activities, both physically and mentally, but I need my occasional B-movie entertainment.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say, thanks for putting it more clearly.
S ometimes frivolous thing have their place if you don't want to be intellectually stimulated but simply want to be entertained.
If I don't want to be intellectually stimulated, I sleep. I'd rather return to my normal level of mental acuity quickly after a period of real rest than slow burn a minimally stimulating experience for no good reason.
Although, why is that? Just your personal mindset?
If something isn't intellectually stimulating or in some way meaningful, it has no entertainment value to me. With such a lack, engaging it is the same as engagingnothing. Doing something mindless serves no purpose, brings no benefit, precludes other activity (even rest), and leaves no lasting impression. Get off your high horse Rym, you enjoy plenty of things that are mindless entertainment. You like Initial D, and talk of drawing penises on your DS. That is not mentally stimulating entertainment. Beyond that, I have offered you several levels to enjoy professional wrestling on. No one watches it thinking "Oh my God Andre the Giant is going to crush Hulkamania! He's over 7 feet tall and 500 lbs! Even the Hulkster can't bodyslam!!!" No one today, anyway, kayfabe is dead, and has been dead since Vince Macmahon was forced to admit the matches were fixed. You don't like pro wrestling, fine. Don't go acting like you are so very superior because you aren't. I usually like listening and reading to you two, but sometimes you get so very arrogant and it gets darn annoying. And, as I said, wrestling can leave a lasting impression when it's done right. You can do social and political commentary in the ring with stories, or, as they did with Eddie and Benoit, give you a Cinderella story the likes of which are only told in movies and look back specials by NFL Films or ESPN
I call myself a geek but I really don't fit into any of these categories. Frankly, it doesn't bother me, I am who I am and I like what I like. You can call yourself whatever you feel like calling yourself. Frankly I've always hated people trying to shoe horn others into this category or that category when everyone is unique. For example, I'm guessing I'm one of the few hardcore pro wrestling fans here, does that automatically mean I don't belong?
My wife could be called a horse racing geek. She can tell you the names of the winners of most famous races for many different years, including stats, jockey's names, even colors. I'm not as interested, but that's cool. Her interest in racing gives her a basis for understanding my interest in science fiction.
I used to watch wrestling from Memphis, TN and Evansville, IN in the early 80s when they had guys like Jerry Lawler, Tojo Yamamoto, and Bill Dundee. My interest flagged to zero when the WWF started. That doesn't mean I'd think anyone else should share my views. I just didn't like it anymore.
Comments
Many people do many things for many reasons. Just because people are willing and able to create some form of entertainment doesn't mean that form of entertainment is suddenly intelligent, interesting, worthwhile, or high-brow. Case in point, NASCAR.
Nerd: someone who studies a lot and worries about their grades, what college they want to get into and other academic stuff
Geek: someone who is obsessively knowledgeable about certain topics like sports, computers, anime, scifi. Geeks can be cool, dorky or something in between
Dork - someone know lacks social skills or awareness
Geek: obsessive over a small number of interests, is able to communicate effectively with mainstream people as well as other geeks/nerds/dorks, more intelligent than mainstream members of the public but generally less intelligent than nerds, kind of a crossover between mainstream individual and nerd, more interested in doing than studying.
Nerd: highly intellectual, probably achieved very good grades in school, generally anti-social, more varied in their interests than geeks, more interested in studying than doing, different individuals who don't mesh well with the general public.
Dork: socially inept to the highest degree, lacks motivation, watches alot of television/plays alot of games, extremely lazy, lives with parents until 35 but never leaves hometown, visits parents daily even after moving out, financially supported by mother for life, lacks proper hygiene, intelligence can vary between super-genius to functionally retarded, masturbates frequently, unable to communicate with other human beings, not interested in studying or doing, but prefers to watch daytime television.
I consider myself to be a cross between a geek and a nerd.
To be truthful, I do watch pro wrestling sometimes and, honestly, I think it's something you either get or don't, most people don't and that's cool. But the argument against wrestling, the "lawl, it's fake" one, that I hear most often sorta confuses me in that, okay, everyone watches movies which, by definition unless they're a documentary, have real people playing characters acting out fake situations made to look real, wrestling is essentially that but with a focus on fake in-ring combat. It's one thing if a person simply doesn't like wrestling or finds it unpleasant to watch (see the argument Scott was making up there) but it's my opinion that wrestling is only semantically different from a b-action movie: the plot's stupid, the acting is marginal and it looks fake as all fuck but got-damn if it isn't entertaining when you're in the right mood. This too.
Does something have to be intelligent/meaningful in order to be good? It has to either be that, or be such the antithesis of that that the enjoyment becomes purely meta.
This is probably the best way to watch pro wrestling.That it is.
Yeah, that's cool. I'm just saying that I think trashy entertainment (like pro wrestling) has its place, in that it can be enjoyed (provided you have to right mindset) without any emotional or intellectual investment, it's much easier to watch and be entertained by when you're tired or lazy or just plain don't want to watch the Evangelions of the world at that moment.
And I think Hitman Hart takes good-old wrasslin' far too seriously
I also remember when Andre the Giant died... He was awesome in The Princess Bride and I recall him saying that making that movie was one of the happiest times of his life.
Wrestling is a lot like a role playing game. It's not just the combat, it's what happens between battles. In the late 80's and early 90's (when I still watched) there was always a web of intrigue going on in the background. The simple fact that the camera was showing you this told you that it was staged for your benefit. How boring would a movie be if you were only able to see events transpire where the characters on screen always knew the camera was there?
Wrestling is about suspension of disbelief. Though things are staged (who will win) sometimes things don't go that way. I have read a few autobiographies of wrestlers and one thing they point out is that if you decide to go rogue and break script you better be ready for the consequences. It's one thing if there is an accident and someone gets hurt but it is something entirely different if someone just decides to cause an "accident".
Heck, I even created a Wrestling CCG long before the WWF Raw CCG came out! I had just begun making calls around to publishers when Comic Images announced they had acquired a WWF CCG license. Missed it by 7 days!
I mean, hell, why does anyone enjoy anything? You just do.
Although, why is that? Just your personal mindset?If something isn't intellectually stimulating or in some way meaningful, it has no entertainment value to me. With such a lack, engaging it is the same as engaging nothing. Doing something mindless serves no purpose, brings no benefit, precludes other activity (even rest), and leaves no lasting impression.
Okay, cool, that all makes perfect sense, I think that this just comes down to a "you're you and I'm me" thing.
Get off your high horse Rym, you enjoy plenty of things that are mindless entertainment. You like Initial D, and talk of drawing penises on your DS. That is not mentally stimulating entertainment. Beyond that, I have offered you several levels to enjoy professional wrestling on. No one watches it thinking "Oh my God Andre the Giant is going to crush Hulkamania! He's over 7 feet tall and 500 lbs! Even the Hulkster can't bodyslam!!!" No one today, anyway, kayfabe is dead, and has been dead since Vince Macmahon was forced to admit the matches were fixed. You don't like pro wrestling, fine. Don't go acting like you are so very superior because you aren't. I usually like listening and reading to you two, but sometimes you get so very arrogant and it gets darn annoying. And, as I said, wrestling can leave a lasting impression when it's done right. You can do social and political commentary in the ring with stories, or, as they did with Eddie and Benoit, give you a Cinderella story the likes of which are only told in movies and look back specials by NFL Films or ESPN
I used to watch wrestling from Memphis, TN and Evansville, IN in the early 80s when they had guys like Jerry Lawler, Tojo Yamamoto, and Bill Dundee. My interest flagged to zero when the WWF started. That doesn't mean I'd think anyone else should share my views. I just didn't like it anymore.