No. Both the Onion article and that Carlin routine trivialize rape in a very bad way, and that is actually not acceptable. If you seriously think that making most of an audience of lowest-common-denominator white men laugh is sufficient justification for the kind of fear and psychological pain a rape joke can cause for the women in the audience (rape survivors or not), I really have nothing more to say except that you're a terrible fucking person.
Good day.
So we're not allowed to trivialize rape. I understand that rape victims and those close to them find any mention of it traumatic, let alone in the context of comedy. Following that, we can't joke about murder either. I hope I'm not falling down a slippery slope here, but those who have been effected by murder find flippant mention of it upsetting, and if we're trying not to hurt people then the topic is off limits in comedy. Same goes for suicide, terminal illness, mental illness, racism, war, and anything else that might remind somebody of something horrible that has happened or might happen to them. Your philosophy leaves little to make silly jokes about, and I'm not cool with that.
Although Linkigi's post is rather extreme, your post is simplifying away some important factors here, Walker.
First of all, the point isn't that such issues should be off limits, but that they should be treated with care, and that more care should be applied to certain issues than others. The main reason rape is towards the top of the list of such issues is that it's rather prevalent and so affects a large number of people, in a way that most of those other issues (except perhaps mental illness) do not.
I'm at the penny arcade panel @SDCC. When asked, Gabe (through KHoo) said when asked by an Austin resident," We are aggresively seeking a PAX near you."
If you're like me, you often try new beers, but forget which you liked. I found a neat app called Untappd that is basically a beer journal, and you can watch your friends' accounts to see what they're drinking and their reviews of what they try.
If you're like me, you often try new beers, but forget which you liked. I found a neat app called Untappd that is basically a beer journal, and you can watch your friends' accounts to see what they're drinking and their reviews of what they try.
Conceptually I love the sound of that. I am giving that app a try.
Stand-Up Comedy Rape Material Competition - Luke's the Judge:
George Carlin - Has a good point. I do believe any comedian should be able to joke about whatever they want. However, I think he does a very bad job with it. He talks about "every joke needs an exaggeration" but picks the wrong target. He somehow thinks the comedy should come from associating with the perpetrator, and looks at his story. This casts Carlin close to the role of the rapists in the minds of the audience, rather than the victim. I didn't find it funny at all, and actually quite disturbing. I don't want to have an exploration of why people rape each other near the North Pole, especially if there is no pay off, and the arguments don't make sense. I've never seen rape as something someone would do because they couldn't get sex elsewhere (though I don't want to get into a discussion about this here).
I don't think Carlin would be able to get away with that kind of material if he wasn't in a room full of his fans, who are willing to clap along with it. This isn't a knock against him, because I do material in my show that I know only works at the end, not at the start of the show, because by then I've won them over.
Wanda Sykes - Very funny. She casts herself closer to the role of the victim, and lets everyone come along for the ride in a world where rape is either no longer possible, or if it is, it's a mild inconvenience. Even gang rape is just a bit annoying, and only from a cleaning up point of view. It's very clever.
Also, even though the routine is about the threat and impact of rape, she doesn't ever mention the word rape. This means that she never has to worry about the "Should I do comedy about rape?" question. She is skirting around the edge of the issue in the way that the audience (with lots of females) are totally comfortable with, and recognize from the treatment of the subject in the real world. Everyone is in on the word game. This is the opposite of Carlin, who uses his comedy as a blunt object, almost violent in his affront on the audience.
Dave Chappelle - Again, he casts himself in the role of the victim. However, he doesn't cast himself there right away! This is his genius, and why I think his comedy routine is the funniest (for me). He starts off by bringing up the idea of serial rape, which isn't funny.
But...
And this makes all of his audience lean forward. How is he going to do this? How is he going to make this funny?
For a start, he does it by showing how weird it is to talk about it, constantly, in his body language and his pacing. It's genius. By showing how uncomfortable he is with it, he's identifying with the audience's mind set. Then, after making them cheer that it was man rape not lady rape, he calls them out on it. Great move! It means that he's put everyone in the room into the same boat. We're all uncomfortable about the topic of rape, but we're going to do this anyway, okay?
He then covers the shame of rape from the point of view of both men and woman victims, again uniting the audience, and himself with them.
Luke's Verdict:
While Carlin thinks he's being clever by addressing rape in a comedy routine, Chappelle and Sykes are *actually* clever by pulling it off. I can understand why someone watching Carlin's routine would be offended (and I was offended, partially by how badly he handled the comic elements of the material), but it's really hard to be offended by Chappelle and Sykes, because both are doing comedy about being the victim, rather than the perpetrator, of the violent crime.
Dave Chappelle wins, but only because he hit the subject head on, acknowledged the issue and the audience, and still made me laugh out loud.
Carlin's rape routine doesn't work very well and is tied in to a rather flawed perspective on rape. Granted, there are some positive aspects in that it makes light of the tendency for victim-blaming, but ultimately it still fails.
It's likely possible to do good comedy from the perspective of the rapist, but I can't name any examples offhand.
No. Both the Onion article and that Carlin routine trivialize rape in a very bad way, and that is actually not acceptable. If you seriously think that making most of an audience of lowest-common-denominator white men laugh is sufficient justification for the kind of fear and psychological pain a rape joke can cause for the women in the audience (rape survivors or not), I really have nothing more to say except that you're a terrible fucking person.
Good day.
Here's my response as someone who's been performing comedy for over seven years:
1) Anything can be funny if it's handled well. This includes rape. And suicidal depression, and abortion, and genocide. Comedy is like a group therapy session, and the comedian's job is to transform pain to pleasure. But obviously, the pain of having been embarrassingly drunk is less than the pain of a relative's suicide, and the skill needed to make light of one pales in comparison to the other. If you say that something is never okay to laugh at, you let misery win.
2) Daniel Tosh fucked this up, obviously. He did not have the skill, and he singled out a woman and made her a target (which is worse than the joke she interrupted, honestly). People might disagree as to whether or not heckling is appropriate, but anyone rational thinks that targeting a heckler like that is inappropriate. Whether or not that joke is funny is subject to opinion; educated comedians would probably say no, but I'm sure the LCD crowd you speak of might have some dissenters. Tosh has a right to say what he wants to the audience, they have a right to leave, and your ticket absolutely doesn't get you the right to heckle. However, if people are hurt by your remarks, you have a responsibility to own your words. That's the troubling part of this ruckus: quite a lot of people think that Tosh shouldn't legitimately apologize. I don't think that's the case; if your joke opens wounds, then it isn't really a joke.
3) Carlin? Lowest-Common-Denominator? You just put your foot in your mouth. Dude had some questionable material, but he's a comedy god up there with Pryor, Dangerfield, and Hicks. Also, I chuckled at the Onion column. You're misreading it; it's more of a "Yeah, Danny, how would you like it?" bit than a "Hahaha, rape is so funny" piece. The latter would have been more Tosh's speed, though.
4) Here's a really great rape joke from Dane Cook. I hope he told it in the set following Tosh's--that'd be really hilarious:
I think part of the issue with Tosh's joke isn't the joke itself, but the fact that it was a retort to her heckling. I've hear similar jokes that were probably just as offensive but the difference was that they weren't targeting one person. They were more of a "What if this happened to this imaginary person" sort of thing. When its not a real person, we can get the irony of the joke without it going over the line.
After a long game of BSG, cylinder who did nothing all game says," I'm not obligated to try and win the game.". I wanted to punch that man in the throat.
After a long game of BSG, cylinder who did nothing all game says," I'm not obligated to try and win the game.". I wanted to punch that man in the throat.
I was too busy paying attention to how this sample is a nightmare. huehuehuehue
I then checked out another 2D game he previewed. Gunpoint, which also looks amazing. And started tearing my hair out at how many similarities his brain has to a brick.
Comments
First of all, the point isn't that such issues should be off limits, but that they should be treated with care, and that more care should be applied to certain issues than others. The main reason rape is towards the top of the list of such issues is that it's rather prevalent and so affects a large number of people, in a way that most of those other issues (except perhaps mental illness) do not.
George Carlin - Has a good point. I do believe any comedian should be able to joke about whatever they want. However, I think he does a very bad job with it. He talks about "every joke needs an exaggeration" but picks the wrong target. He somehow thinks the comedy should come from associating with the perpetrator, and looks at his story. This casts Carlin close to the role of the rapists in the minds of the audience, rather than the victim. I didn't find it funny at all, and actually quite disturbing. I don't want to have an exploration of why people rape each other near the North Pole, especially if there is no pay off, and the arguments don't make sense. I've never seen rape as something someone would do because they couldn't get sex elsewhere (though I don't want to get into a discussion about this here).
I don't think Carlin would be able to get away with that kind of material if he wasn't in a room full of his fans, who are willing to clap along with it. This isn't a knock against him, because I do material in my show that I know only works at the end, not at the start of the show, because by then I've won them over.
Wanda Sykes - Very funny. She casts herself closer to the role of the victim, and lets everyone come along for the ride in a world where rape is either no longer possible, or if it is, it's a mild inconvenience. Even gang rape is just a bit annoying, and only from a cleaning up point of view. It's very clever.
Also, even though the routine is about the threat and impact of rape, she doesn't ever mention the word rape. This means that she never has to worry about the "Should I do comedy about rape?" question. She is skirting around the edge of the issue in the way that the audience (with lots of females) are totally comfortable with, and recognize from the treatment of the subject in the real world. Everyone is in on the word game. This is the opposite of Carlin, who uses his comedy as a blunt object, almost violent in his affront on the audience.
Dave Chappelle - Again, he casts himself in the role of the victim. However, he doesn't cast himself there right away! This is his genius, and why I think his comedy routine is the funniest (for me). He starts off by bringing up the idea of serial rape, which isn't funny.
But...
And this makes all of his audience lean forward. How is he going to do this? How is he going to make this funny?
For a start, he does it by showing how weird it is to talk about it, constantly, in his body language and his pacing. It's genius. By showing how uncomfortable he is with it, he's identifying with the audience's mind set. Then, after making them cheer that it was man rape not lady rape, he calls them out on it. Great move! It means that he's put everyone in the room into the same boat. We're all uncomfortable about the topic of rape, but we're going to do this anyway, okay?
He then covers the shame of rape from the point of view of both men and woman victims, again uniting the audience, and himself with them.
Luke's Verdict:
While Carlin thinks he's being clever by addressing rape in a comedy routine, Chappelle and Sykes are *actually* clever by pulling it off. I can understand why someone watching Carlin's routine would be offended (and I was offended, partially by how badly he handled the comic elements of the material), but it's really hard to be offended by Chappelle and Sykes, because both are doing comedy about being the victim, rather than the perpetrator, of the violent crime.
Dave Chappelle wins, but only because he hit the subject head on, acknowledged the issue and the audience, and still made me laugh out loud.
Carlin's rape routine doesn't work very well and is tied in to a rather flawed perspective on rape. Granted, there are some positive aspects in that it makes light of the tendency for victim-blaming, but ultimately it still fails.
It's likely possible to do good comedy from the perspective of the rapist, but I can't name any examples offhand.
1) Anything can be funny if it's handled well. This includes rape. And suicidal depression, and abortion, and genocide. Comedy is like a group therapy session, and the comedian's job is to transform pain to pleasure. But obviously, the pain of having been embarrassingly drunk is less than the pain of a relative's suicide, and the skill needed to make light of one pales in comparison to the other. If you say that something is never okay to laugh at, you let misery win.
2) Daniel Tosh fucked this up, obviously. He did not have the skill, and he singled out a woman and made her a target (which is worse than the joke she interrupted, honestly). People might disagree as to whether or not heckling is appropriate, but anyone rational thinks that targeting a heckler like that is inappropriate. Whether or not that joke is funny is subject to opinion; educated comedians would probably say no, but I'm sure the LCD crowd you speak of might have some dissenters. Tosh has a right to say what he wants to the audience, they have a right to leave, and your ticket absolutely doesn't get you the right to heckle. However, if people are hurt by your remarks, you have a responsibility to own your words. That's the troubling part of this ruckus: quite a lot of people think that Tosh shouldn't legitimately apologize. I don't think that's the case; if your joke opens wounds, then it isn't really a joke.
3) Carlin? Lowest-Common-Denominator? You just put your foot in your mouth. Dude had some questionable material, but he's a comedy god up there with Pryor, Dangerfield, and Hicks. Also, I chuckled at the Onion column. You're misreading it; it's more of a "Yeah, Danny, how would you like it?" bit than a "Hahaha, rape is so funny" piece. The latter would have been more Tosh's speed, though.
4) Here's a really great rape joke from Dane Cook. I hope he told it in the set following Tosh's--that'd be really hilarious: