GeekNights 070918 - Team Fortress

Rym

Tonight on GeekNights: Team Fortress 2. Instead of the news, we talk about the history of Team Fortress style games. In the news, a cesspool of the Internet is now dead.
Scott's Thing - Play This Thing

Rym's Thing - He Deserved It

MitchyD

Album art gets a thumbs up.

Omnutia

Does anyone think someones going to make a mod to correct the major problems?

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Awesome! I love Cave Story. I've finished the basic game. Not the 'extra' final part after the what you thought to be boss. That is just too damn hard. And requires insane jet pack skills. @_@ Everybody should check that game out though.

As for Rym's thing. I watched it before I listened to the ep and was like "Wtf? How does he deserve it?" Then I listened to the ep and I still don't really get it. Judging from the vid, and the vid only, they had no reason to arrest him. He only was, like Scott and Rym said, asking questions. So what the heck happened before that?

As for TF2. Darn it, can't play it yet.

Apreche

As for Rym's thing. I watched it before I listened to the ep and was like "Wtf? How does he deserve it?" Then I listened to the ep and I still don't really get it. Judging from the vid, and the vid only, they had no reason to arrest him. He only was, like Scott and Rym said, asking questions. So what the heck happened before that?

They asked him to leave, and he refused.

clx

From the blurry images it sounded like while he was saying "I'm not doing anything, what did I do wrong?" and basically verbally saying he was being treated badly while he did nothing wrong. However it looked like he was deliberately making hard for police to maneuver him, you know, by being almost passively awkward.

I agree that in TF2 the characters seem slow, I have a feeling that's for the console guys.

snookernet

I agree that in TF2 the characters seem slow, I have a feeling that's for the console guys.

We'll know for sure if the scout is any slower when it comes out for them.

Rym

I agree that in TF2 the characters seem slow, I have a feeling that's for the console guys.It's deeper than that, now that I've played more.
The open spaces in the maps, relative to the size of the player models, are very small.  Coupled with this, the players and projectiles move very slowly.  The hitscan weapons have extremely wide dispersion patterns.  The hit boxes are relatively large.
End result: choosing to use the pistol is important: using the pistol well is not.  Choosing to use the heavy is important.  Choosing which targets to fire upon is important.  Accurate aiming is somewhat important, but is largely mitigated by the dispersion.
The game is very close to not being an FPS.  It's a First Person Something, but shooter it is not.  I'm not trying to play "no true Scotsman;" it's simply that the "genre" FPS is very broad, and this game is at the far extreme of one end of the spectrum.

clx

Maybe they have deliberately made the game that way instead of adding the auto aim for console guys?
They can hardly make the game have the same sort of emphasis on accuracy as CS has.

Apreche

I was thinking more on this, and I realized that a large part of the reason that aim doesn't matter so much is due to the types of weapons that are being used. First off, almost everyone has a shotgun, a spread weapon. Next, look at the major damage dealing weapons in the game. The heavy, the flamethrower, the rocket launcher, the grenade launcher, and the sentry turret. None of these are weapons that demand precise aim. You just point it in the general direction of who you want to kill, and that's the best you can do. Having better aim will not help you very much at all.

That brings us to the sniper rifle. It does require aim. However, it is very easy to aim. You fire it from long range with an incredible zoom. There's some fps skill, but not much. To help explain, let us look at person A and person B. Person A is a god of sniping in TF2, but only so-so at sniping in Counter-Strike. Person B is a god of sniping in Counter-Strike, and also a god of sniping in TF2. If person A and person B have a sniper duel in CS, person B will win almost every time. If they have a sniping duel in TF2, it will be pretty much even. Person B is still better, and has more fps skill, but in TF2 that skill doesn't matter.

Melee weapons I think require no explanation. Nor do the pistols. I played with the pistols a bit, and found that they were very inaccurate at any sort of range. Realistic I guess, but if I have the skill to own you with a pistol from far away, that doesn't matter if the game makes it impossible to do other than by luck. At close range, the player models are so large that you almost can't miss with the pistol. Maybe if a scout runs by really quickly after being rocketed by a soldier friend of his, then it might matter a little.

I think the only weapon I have seen where precision aim matters is the medic's syringe gun. However, the medic only uses this weapon when he's in a tight spot. Most of the time he uses his lock-on auto-aiming healing ray.

It's like this. In the hundred meter dash, whoever runs the fastest wins and everyone else loses. There is no limit to how fast you can go. Every extra bit of skill and speed you can add to yourself will help you win. Imagine if they changed the rules to where anyone who runs the 100 meters in under 30 seconds wins, and everyone else loses. With rules like those, I can win, even competing against olympians. Right now, that's what TF2 seems to be. You need a certain level of fps skill to be good, but that level of skill is pretty low as far as gamers are concerned. Having skill above and beyond that level makes almost no difference.

This is a game where winning and losing is determined by the decisions you make on the battlefield. It does not test reaction time, perception, precision control, or any of the other fps skills. If they simply changed this game such that those skills mattered, it would be near-perfect.

Omnutia

If Scrym and Rott have got ten minutes spare some time could you do a geekback about the game having played it for a bit longer and put it in the experimental feed?

xenomouse

Thank you guys for specifying what taser dude did wrong. When I first watched that video, I was wondering where the outrage was. Taser dude was asked to leave. He didn't leave. The officers there tried to escort him out, and he started yelling and screaming and wrestling with them. They try to cuff him, and he wrestled with them. They told him to stop resisting, and he wrestled with them some more. Then he got tased, and suddenly he's compliant and out the door. Textbook case of when and how to use a taser.

Even if someone is being arrested for something that doesn't warrant arrest or for something they didn't do, wrestling with the cops is always a Bad Idea™. Everyone gets a chance to fight the charges and file a false arrest complaint later.

Last 30 seconds of that video were pure comedy.

"Don't tase me, bro! Don't tase me! I said don't tase me!" *bzzt* "Oww oww oww oww oww oww!"

Owned.

Rym

This is a game where winning and losing is determined by the decisions you make on the battlefield.
This would be fine, and I would like a game like that.  The problem is that there are NO interesting decisions to be made in the game thus far.  The strategies are basic, obvious, and trivial to implement.  Trying to do anything other than the obvious is not rewarded and in most cases punished.

Apreche

This would be fine, and I would like a game like that. The problem is that there are NO interesting decisions to be made in the game thus far. The strategies are basic, obvious, and trivial to implement. Trying to do anything other than the obvious is not rewarded and in most cases punished.

I never said those decisions were hard or interesting. But they are all that matters. I witnessed it last night. On a cp map, where scouts are almost useless, half of our team was scouts and we got owned. Then we switch up to having more heavies and medics and engineers, we won. The decision was not hard or interesting, but it is what mattered.

Neito

You can play Cave Story with a control pad. You have to use the config application in the same folder as Doukutsu.exe.
Also, if you skip the machine gun and the first time you see the old scientist (in the junk yard/trash heap place), you get a better ending.

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Ehm, Neito. You can get the same ending with the machine gun. The 'bad' ending ends at the screenshot that's on the linked page. The good ending can be obtained with either the machine gun or the hand gun. Though the machine gun doesn't grant access to the "HOLY FUCK SHIT DAMN DAMN DAMN!!!" Cave after the normal ending boss. Heck, it's even possible to get the normal ending with 3 HP max. There are speedruns about that. Cave Story has such a variation of difficulty. Some levels are completely different depending on your choices.

Neito

I'm pretty sure that you need to leave the machine gun to get the best ending.
But I haven't played the tough playthrough yet.

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the best ending.

That is the "HOLY FUCK SHIT DAMN DAMN DAMN!!!" Cave with its own big bad boss at the end. I can't get passed the first part of said cave. And that's even relatively easy compared to the rest of the cave. enter cave, move off the platform you start on and it's SHIT INSTANT DEATH SPIKE EVERYWHERE! I have a lot of respect for the people who can get to that last boss. Tons of respect.

Rym

Thank you guys for specifying what taser dude did wrong.
Taser dude is in a specific class of people who share a modus operandi.  I've seen these people engaged in similar behaviour more times than I would like.
They share several characteristics:

Belief in a crazy left-wing conspiracy theory
Belief that they are entitled to being heard no matter the circumstances
Belief that others will "see the light" if only they know the "truth"
Belief that anyone who obstructs them is part of the apparatus of "the man"
Belief that loudness counts as persuasion
Belief that "the man" will bring them down, and that they will be a martyr

They follow the same formula for action:

Choose bat-shit conspiracy
Demand to be heard at public event where popular person central to said batshit will be present
Upon getting the microphone, pontificate endlessly about nothing and spout utter nonsense
Get louder as you speak, until you are screaming
Refuse to shut up when asked
Refuse to leave when asked
Physically resist being forced to leave
Scream for help, citing your arrest as an example of "the man" putting down the truth
Get tasered

Railith

Where the hell is Toroko in the rabbit town at the begining cave story?

Neito

Where the hell is Toroko in the rabbit town at the begining cave story?

Check inside every door. Eventually, you find her.

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!SPOILER! In white, select to read. Shack in bottom _right_ of the 'town' though make sure you've talked to the fisherman, grabbed the shiny thing from the bottom of the pond and met her near the exit of the pond. Then she's in the shack. !END SPOILER!

TheWhaleShark

Taser dude was basically giving the police shit the entire time. It's the same sort of mentality shared by right-wing Christians who stand outside of Planned Parenthood and yell "Baby killer!" at everyone who walks in.

Same asshole, really. You give people enough shit, and they'll taser you. I have no sympathy.

I especially loved the kids shouting "police brutality." I have a feeling most of those kids have no idea what actual police brutality is.

Railith

!SPOILER! In white, select to read.Shack in bottom left of the 'town' though make sure you've talked to the fisherman, grabbed the shiny thing from the bottom of the pond and met her near the exit of the pond. Then she's in the shack.!END SPOILER!

Thanks for the help.

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Wait... *hits forehead* Other bottom corner. Sorry Railith, but you found it, so no trouble. And I forgot one could whisper... that's an alien thing to me. Should try to remember that feature next time. And I gotta find my save. Or just start again. It's an addicting game but haaaaaaaard >.<;

Apreche

I especially loved the kids shouting "police brutality." I have a feeling most of those kids have no idea what actual police brutality is.

Yes, they also dont' realize how lucky they are that the police have tasers. If this were even just a few years ago, the only thing police would have had available to them would have been mace and billy clubs. Would you rather get shocked or have the shit beat out of you with night sticks?

HMTKSteve

when I heard the audio from the tazer event I kept thinking of Monthy Python and the Holy Grail and the peasant scene.

"Help, help I'm being repressed! Look at the violence inherent in the system!!!"

Kiey

I was laughing at that kid all day yesterday at work, mostly 'cause CNN ran the clip a whole lot. It was ridiculous that anyone thought the kid was somehow not resisting arrest. Even from the 15 seconds that they re-ran it was obvious, and when they showed more then that it was even more obvious.

Kiey

Oh, that motion blur thing you were complaining about. I was wondering what you were talking about during the show, since I never experienced that, but I went into the video settings and it turns out that you can turn it off since mine was disabled by default. So its not really something to make it easier for console players.

clx

I noticed some changes in the game last night.
No 3D intro menu
No Motion blurring
And when you switch weapons it no longer shows the list of weapons on the right hand side. I kind of liked that...

xenomouse

It was ridiculous that anyone thought the kid was somehow not resisting arrest. Even from the 15 seconds that they re-ran it was obvious, and when they showed more then that it was even more obvious.

He obviously did not watch or was unaware of Chris Rock's helpful PSA.