I simply wanted to point out that not all Christians are crackpots.
If you believe in something for which there is no evidence, you are a crackpot. Believing in god is just as crackpotty as believing in santa claus, the tooth fairy, the flying spaghetti monster or otherwise. There is equal amounts of evidence for all of those things, 0. If you think that beliefs about religion should be held to a different standard than other beliefs simply because you happen to have been born into religious circumstances, you are delusional.
If I remember correctly you have said you are atheistic, belief that there is no God makes you just as much of a crackpot. You have no evidence there is no God. Logic should push you to agnosticism. We have the evidence that Santa Clause does not live at the north pole, there is no evidence that God is not in heaven. You see, we have evidence that there is nothing there in Santa's case. We have no way to prove God isn't there. If you think your belief in no God is in any way superior to my belief in God you are delusional.
Burden of proof has been discussed thoroughly here before. They did an episode on it. Read up on Russell's Teapot before you start with the "you can't prove it isn't true" argument. And The Santa Clause was a movie with Tim Allen in it.
There is also no evidence that demons did not make you say that. There is no evidence that I did not kill my cat. There is no evidence that I am not god. There is no evidence that there is not an invisible pink unicorn sitting next to you. There is no evidence that gremlins are not real.
You can't disprove a negative. It's a logical fallacy. If you believe in something without positive proof that it exists, or at least credible positive evidence, then you are both a crackpot and undereducated.
You need to listen to the episode about the burden of proof. I'm more and more in favor of somehow rigging the site so that you can't post here until you've listened to that episode.
This is why faith is dangerous. Your desire to justify your false belief in a magical invisible man in the sky has damaged your logical reasoning capabilities. The reason people came up with the flying spaghetti monster was to use as a teaching tool to help people like yourself regain rationality. Take every argument you make for god and replace god with flying spaghetti monster. If you rid yourself of all cognitive dissonance, you will see that the arguments are the same, and it is only the happenstance and dogma of your upbringing that denies you the ability to recognize that you are a nut who believes in an invisible magic man in the sky.
To paraphrase the great Richard Dawkins. "You're an atheist about Thor. You're atheist about Zeus. You're atheist about the boogey man. You're atheist about Ra. I'm just atheist about one more god than you are."
Oh and by the way. In the infinitesimally small chance that the judeo-christian version of reality is correct, I'm on satan's side. Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.
Oh and by the way. In the infinitesimally small chance that the judeo-christian version of reality is correct, I'm on satan's side. Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.
Well, to be fair, you wouldn't be ruling in hell, either, Satan's already got that one in the bag.
This is why faith is dangerous. Your desire to justify your false belief in a magical invisible man in the sky has damaged your logical reasoning capabilities. The reason people came up with the flying spaghetti monster was to use as a teaching tool to help people like yourself regain rationality.
Why is faith dangerous? I missed something, I am not twisting your words. You can not disprove the existence of God. You have faith, you have faith there is no god, your faith tells you that people who say there is a god are wrong and apparently delusional nutjobs. To quote directly Kai Nielsen “To show that an argument is invalid or unsound is not to show that the conclusion of the argument is false". The burden of proof lies on neither or both sides, not one or the other. Again if you are not agnostic you have faith, you believe in a dogma that there is no god.
How was the universe created? Why was the universe created? Is it really possible that a random explosion billions and billions years ago had the nearly infinite energy needed to create all matter in the universe? Is it possible that all that random matter happened to produce life randomly? How did we become sentient? What is morality? Why are we here? These are the interesting questions. I'd also like to know if gravitons exist, but that information will not philosophically change the way I think or live my life. Answers to the meaning of life must be based on faith, you can not prove any of them.
The flying spaghetti monster was created to counter the intelligent design being taught in school. I would submit that it was quite an irrational response to a fear of something Bobby Henderson didn't understand. Again like Santa Clause, the circumstances around the origin of the FSM are known. This points to that reasonable assumption that it does not exist.
If you were to read the Gospel, the New Testament, you would not find a single undesirable trait espoused. You would find instructions to improve your life. Even if you choose not to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the precepts taught by Jesus are an excellent guide to living your life. There is no atheistic teaching other than God doesn't exist. No moral direction, no compass with which to guide you in life, truly nothing. Well there is one thing, my dad said "Being an atheist would be a lot less expensive."
I know God created everything.So, do you believe in the tooth fairy? Dragons? The flying spaghetti monster? If you don't, why don't you?Fuck! I was going to say that!
When my parents told me Santa Claus and company were baloney God went out the window.
Visigoths
Wow your friends sound really incredibly bad. Whenever I've thrown large parties I get catering and rent out a hall or a tavern. However for smaller get togethers nothing of what you've described happens, sometimes people may not realise we've got a collection box or bin for bottles and cans separate to all the other rubbish. I usually serve in disposable cups and plates and have the "party" outside so it's easier to clean and less of the expensive insides of the house are compromised. I usually make it BYO (Brying Your Own) for alcohol and I supply all the food. However I will stock up on good beers, premixed drinks and liquor. However in the latter situation at other people's parties I have found half full cans.
At even smaller gatherings where everybody can say fit around a table or 2 I use all normal breakable crockery and glasses and can't remember anything breaking.
I do get annoyed when people use the kitchen sink to wash their hands as I try to keep my food prep area cleaner than the rest of the house.
Overall your friends really sound like slobs!
Nissan GTR
Finally! Such a momentous occasion has arisen. I wasn't expecting a very pretty design going on the line of cars it has succeeded (badged as Nissan Skyline GTR in Australia). According to Nissan and / or the Tokyo motorshow, the car seems to have been made to compete with the Porsche 911. I don't doubt that it will give the Porsche a fight with it's price point but it's not going to appeal to the luxury and status driven crowds. I'm all for putting in the new technology and the Japanese cars always seem to be more willing to do it.
I want Toyota to redo the Supra now!
The Consumer is Wrong!
Wow, I didn't expect such a moral driven story to arise from contemporary news. It's usually people getting screwed by the boss or the company these days.
Creationism using Science
Please forgive my fellow Christians we get very excited trying to "prove" ours is the one true way. It can be a hard sell if you go on nothing but faith.
Christians get excited alright, they took a similar route to the Nazis when it came to religion in the crusades.
"Christan?"
"No. "
"Then die!"
They even went through the phase of trying to sell me their religion as if it was a vaccum cleaner, except this appliance in a book was supposed to take all my troubles away.
In addition, they seem to want to invade TV land with Christaincentric shows or become heads of state and use the Christian god's name to fuel more war.
I think it is clear FSM was created by a man with a specific purpose in mind. I do not think that any intelligent person actually worships the flying spaghetti monster, or that a being as such exists.
I think it is clear that God was created by a man with a specific prupose in mind. I do not think that any intelligent person actually worships God, or that a being as such exists.
If I remember correctly you have said you are atheistic, belief that there is no God makes you just as much of a crackpot. You have no evidence there is no God. Logic should push you to agnosticism. We have the evidence that Santa Clause does not live at the north pole, there is no evidence that God is not in heaven. You see, we have evidence that there is nothing there in Santa's case. We have no way to prove God isn't there. If you think your belief in no God is in any way superior to my belief in God you are delusional.
You have no evidence there is a God.
You take that back!! SANTA CLAUS DOES SO EXIST!!! He does so live at the north pole, what evidence do you have that he doesn't? How do you know he's not just under the north pole or well hidden? If you think your belief in no Santa Clause is in any way superior to my belief in Santa Claus, you are delusional.
the circumstances around the origin of the FSM are known. This points to that reasonable assumption that it does not exist
The circumstances around the origin of God are known. This points to that reasonable assumption that God does not exist.
Nineless: It is easy to say "look around there is proof of His existence everywhere". When I look at my boys the proof is clear to me. If you do not believe in God the wonders of nature are not proof.
In other words, your boys are clues of Gods existance in your opinion, however, earlier you wrote
Even if He put small clues all over the planet it would make our purpose null.
In other words "There are no clues." again, in your opinion.
Now, who wrote the New Testament? The Old Testament? Genesis? Most probably a man. What makes you so sure that that guy wasn't insane? That he wasn't seeing and hearing things? That he didn't start a chainreaction of "God is in the skies and watches over all of us and punishes us if we do wrong!". In the same way as happen with cults. Some idiot has an illusion, writes down what he hears and opens his new religion to the world. And will get some followers eventually, faster if said people really really really want to explain causes of all sorts of natural events (Think lightning, Thor, Zues, God). Said religion will be quickly adopted for it gives people the chance to explain thing around them. And of course, amongst those new followers are also nutjobs with illusions, and write what they hear from God on paper too.
If you were to read the Gospel, the New Testament, you would not find a single undesirable trait espoused. You would find instructions to improve your life. Even if you choose not to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the precepts taught by Jesus are an excellent guide to living your life. There is no atheistic teaching other than God doesn't exist. No moral direction, no compass with which to guide you in life, truly nothing. Well there is one thing, my dad said "Being an atheist would be a lot less expensive."
Wait a Minute!, have you not studied anything about Ethics, Morality and philosophy.
Actually, mortality where you fear the wraith of a vengeful god is the weakest mortality system. It's better to do things for the sake of doing good things then to do things because you fear burning in hell or the wrath of a angry god.
Think about this for a moment. If you had a child, would you be more proud of the child for donating to Charity because they wanted to make a positive difference or because you threatened them with punishment.
Wow your friends sound really incredibly bad. Whenever I've thrown large parties I get catering and rent out a hall or a tavern. However for smaller get togethers nothing of what you've described happens, sometimes people may not realise we've got a collection box or bin for bottles and cans separate to all the other rubbish. I usually serve in disposable cups and plates and have the "party" outside so it's easier to clean and less of the expensive insides of the house are compromised. I usually make it BYO (Brying Your Own) for alcohol and I supply all the food. However I will stock up on good beers, premixed drinks and liquor. However in the latter situation at other people's parties I have found half full cans.
Just to make this clear.
Scott Johnson has never not supplied Alcohol when he goes up to the geekhouse for a game or party, unless he is told that his supply (otherwise known as "Rym's stocked bar") is still pretty much full. (Since other then Rym, Pete, Kate and Wyatt noone has more then one drink) That is all.
If you were to read the Gospel, the New Testament, you would not find a single undesirable trait espoused. You would find instructions to improve your life.
Deuteronomy 7:1-2: "... the seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."
Joshua 6:21: "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."
Joshua 10:40-41: "So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon."
Genocide much? New Testament, Old Testament, it's all supposed to be the word of God, right? My friend, I thought at first that you were just a religious geek. Now however, it's clear you're just a troll or a moron. The bible is full of wonderful moral values in addition to genocide such as murdering children. What a great book.
Genocide much? New Testament, Old Testament, it's all supposed to be the word of God, right? My friend, I thought at first that you were just a religious geek. Now however, it's clear you're just a troll or a moron. The bible is full of wonderful moral values in addition to genocide such as murdering children. What a great book.
I think it is clear that God was created by a man with a specific prupose in mind. I do not think that any intelligent person actually worships God, or that a being as such exists.
Really, what was his name? When did he live? Why did he invent god? Where did he go to school? In the case of FSM the answers are: Bobby Henderson, he is currently living, he invented FSM to block creationism in public school, and he went to school Oregon State University. This is good evidence that FSM does not exist, it is not proof that God does or does not exist.
The atheist response will presuppose that the burden of proof lies on the side of the Christian. That is your faith, your dogma. Many atheists believe that Santa Clause is on the same level as God, or fabrication of your own deity or extraordinary claim disproves God. Is it possible to prove that without God we would come the same ethical conclusions we now hold? Prove it. Since you can not prove that ethics evolved from instinct, or that we are all basically good so we know murder is wrong, secular humanism is just another belief, an atheistic belief. I can prove that left to their own devices a human being will drink malt vinegar, puke on his mom's stuff and blame someone else.
Nineless: hence the italics around "to me". I don't need any proof of God's existence, however I can appreciate the wonderful and marvelous things he has created. Pointing out that I may have made a slight contradiction there does not disprove God. I do not think it is a contradiction, I did not ask you to believe in God because my sons exists. (Even though my wife and I tried to have kids for 8 years, and doctors told us my wife would not be able to have kids, oh and they are cute, can't explain that either.)
Actually, mortality where you fear the wraith of a vengeful god is the weakest mortality system. It's better to do things for the sake of doing good things then to do things because you fear burning in hell or the wrath of a angry god.
You don't even understand Christianity why are you commenting? "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, and that whosoever believes in him shall NOT perish but have eternal life." JOHN 3:16. You have to have heard that before right? So lets break this down. God's law, Moses' law, the old testament you had to follow the law or you would perish. That is called Judaism. The New Testament explains that Jesus was the literal son of God. It explains that He walked the earth, taught about peace and the peace of God's love, and did not sin. He was crucified, died, fought Satan and rose from the dead. His sacrifice washed away all sin. You sin and my sin (yeah your, even if you don't believe, Jesus believes in you) so if we believe in Him, if we give ourselves over to this Divine Truth we are saved from sin and death. We give money to charity because it makes Jesus happy not because it makes God mad if we don't. I must as a Christian strive to be the best son, husband, father, employee, neighbor, and friend I can be, not to keep God from anger but as thanks for giving his Son to wash away the wrong I have done. THAT is what it means to be a Christian. Please think about that, it might change your view of the faith. Hopefully you learned something.
I am trying to hold an intelligent discourse on the existence of God. Name calling isn't really necessary. I've read about agnosticism, and atheism, I understand the views, I do not believe them. If you want to understand and be able to argue points against Christianity perhaps a little research is in order. I would suggest C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, or perhaps something more contemporary Ravi Zacharais has many books and even a weekly podcast. Ravi Zacharais has several question and answer sessions on university campus's that are very good. Answering many of the questions posed here, and debating many atheist beliefs.
Really, what was his name? When did he live? Why did he invent god? Where did he go to school? In the case of FSM the answers are: Bobby Henderson, he is currently living, he invented FSM to block creationism in public school, and he went to school Oregon State University.
So, because we can name names now, and not then, FSM isn't real and God is, even though they have the same amount of evidence?
I don't need any proof of God's existence, however I can appreciate the wonderful and marvelous things he has created.
So, what about, say, the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Do you need proof that she exists? If so, why?
"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, and that whosoever believes in him shall NOT perish but have eternal life." JOHN 3:16
One quote. Isn't basically the old testament basically god fucking over his "chosen people" for not following him?
But Christianity still holds the old testament as being true just not applying any more, which still doesn't solve the problem of god condoning genocide back in the day regardless of whether he has now said he doesn't go for it anymore.
It's funny that you completely ignored the links showing how mortality evolved.... and showing a secular system of ethics... and went on to say that their is no way this has developed without christianity. I do believe that ethicial systems developed in China and other remote places (like native americans) before there was christianity in those parts....
Really, what was his name? When did he live? Why did he invent god? Where did he go to school? In the case of FSM the answers are: Bobby Henderson, he is currently living, he invented FSM to block creationism in public school, and he went to school Oregon State University. This is good evidence that FSM does not exist, it is not proof that God does or does not exist.
We don't know his name, let alone does it add anything to the bible, he lived ages ago, he invented God for reasons ranging from explaining things like lightning and the sun, or just to make a cult. And he probably went to the school in his town. Only "Why did he invent God?" is a relevant question which might clear things up. Those other questions are utter nonsense and unnecessary. In 20,000 years people might be worshiping the Flying Spaghetti Monster and won't care who invented him, why he invented him, and where he went to school.
As for the contradiction, there were no clues for you. How can we trust what you say is your honest opinion then? Faith?
I did not ignore the links about a secular system of ethics. I have read more, and heard more debating this topic than wikipedia presents. Wasn't large part of the South American system of ethics sacrificing huge numbers of people? I've not studied a huge amount of Chinese history but I don't think they placed such a high value on life, actually I might conjecture that they still don't. Germany about 75 years ago also doesn't say so much for secular humanism.
In the old Testament God helped his people live according to the law. Yes they were also punished for not following the law. Joshua was leading God's chosen people back into their land that they were removed from by the Egyptians. Actually famine was as much to blame for them leaving Israel a the Egyptians. When they got to Egypt they were enslaved and not allowed to return home. God lead His people back to their land, the land they were kept from. He assisted them in reclaiming that land. In order to protect His people and keep them from sin he helped them clear the pagans from Israel.
We are kinda getting off track. Existence or non existence of God is based on faith. If you believe that from chaos everything sprang to existence. It aligned in such a way as to produce sentient life, and to extend secular humanism and evolution would mean that at some point we would become nearly perfect or perfect beings. To me that seems the harder faith to follow. Agnostic is the easy one, there is no faith just the idea that there may or may not be a higher power, and plant yourself firmly on the fence of doubt.
As for the contradiction, there were no clues for you. How can we trust what you say is your honest opinion then? Faith?
Romans 1:20 on nonbelievers "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." There is no proof only clues. Don't trust me trust your eyes, trust your heart.
"That's where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. I know some of you are going to say "I did look it up, and that's not true." That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that's how our nervous system works." -- Stephen Colbert
As for the contradiction, there were no clues for you. How can we trust what you say is your honest opinion then? Faith?
Romans 1:20 on nonbelievers "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." There is no proof only clues. Don't trust me trust your eyes, trust your heart.
1. You suck at making links. 2. Have you not read me saying I do still believe somewhat? I however am leaning more and more away from "Yes, there might be something" to "If there's something, it's not good".
Not good for God's an asshole. Let me tell you on what I base this. He orders his people to murder his other creations, other people, with which reason? Because they could not read the then existing bible? That's because he forced a different language down their throat for building a tower! AGAINST THEIR WILL! Then he let his creations capture his chosen people and promised them he would someday lead them out. Why not just send those 7 plaques upon his creations instantly? Why did he create pain, suffering, evil, satan/lucifer, that tree in the garden of Eden?!? Why did he give people free will to then force upon them religion if they want to go to heaven? God looks a lot like a 12 year old with a magnifying glass and an anthill. He helps one half of the anthill if he feels like it, and fries every ant he sees on the other side. Answer these questions with answers, not questions am_dragon.
"Repent! Repent! Do good, God is good!" "God did bad too, why can't I follow his lead and do bad too?"
Free will answers most of your questions. Some believe that Satan, along with other angels had free will. They decided to rebel against God. They were cast out of heaven. Will we worship God given free will? Will we obey? Eve was tempted and Adam lied they were cast out of the garden of eden. So back to earth where Satan still has providence to tempt, to deceive. An imperfect world where we must work to make our way. Would we still believe, would we still obey God? Circumstances in the Bible end up the way they do because of man not following God. Read the story of Joseph, his brothers were jealous of him, they thew him in a pit and told their father he was killed by wolves. Joseph was taken to Egypt as a slave. He trusted God and eventually rose to a position that had him advising the pharaoh. God did not put him there directly, but he was blessed by his faith in God. I can't answer all of why God does what he does. The book of Job is a really good story though, and it may give you some insight on free will. A parent has unconditional love for their children. There is a point that a child can reach that will push the parent away. If the child recants and asks forgiveness of the parent then that unconditional parenting love comes back, or is displayed. That is the closest analogy I can make on the subject.
Does God really do bad things? I don't think that is the case, I believe it is the will of man, the wiles of Satan, and this imperfect world. I think that's enough for now, I have other things to tend to. You are welcome to PM or e-mail me if you have more questions.
I know the story of Joseph. God told him the meanings of the dreams (Or he was just a good psychologist), I know. Where are the answers? Let me phrase the last one again, differently. Why does God not allow people in heaven when they've used their free will to not believe in God?
And that's a very neat image Jason.
EDIT: A question totally unrelated to religion. Are you a politician?
Most of those are taken out of context. Slaves for one were indentured to the owner, unlike early American slaves that were harvested from Africa. There is a difference, closer to how someone might be a "slave" to their job now so they don't get evicted and the car repo'ed. Also Jesus was very sarcastic. He often said things that most people don't pick up on right away. "you must hate your family" He was telling the people they needed to make sure they wanted to follow him. He didn't want anyone that was only going half-way. "For if he lay's for foundation, and does not finish it he will be ridiculed".
Read each book, not just the passage, they took the quotes from then we will talk.
Comments
You can't disprove a negative. It's a logical fallacy. If you believe in something without positive proof that it exists, or at least credible positive evidence, then you are both a crackpot and undereducated.
You need to listen to the episode about the burden of proof. I'm more and more in favor of somehow rigging the site so that you can't post here until you've listened to that episode.
To paraphrase the great Richard Dawkins. "You're an atheist about Thor. You're atheist about Zeus. You're atheist about the boogey man. You're atheist about Ra. I'm just atheist about one more god than you are."
Oh and by the way. In the infinitesimally small chance that the judeo-christian version of reality is correct, I'm on satan's side. Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.
NEVER! =P Well as long as you courtesy flush, use the Febreeze, and don't ALWAYS poop whenever you're at my place, it's ok.
Well, to be fair, you wouldn't be ruling in hell, either, Satan's already got that one in the bag.
How was the universe created? Why was the universe created? Is it really possible that a random explosion billions and billions years ago had the nearly infinite energy needed to create all matter in the universe? Is it possible that all that random matter happened to produce life randomly? How did we become sentient? What is morality? Why are we here? These are the interesting questions. I'd also like to know if gravitons exist, but that information will not philosophically change the way I think or live my life. Answers to the meaning of life must be based on faith, you can not prove any of them.
The flying spaghetti monster was created to counter the intelligent design being taught in school. I would submit that it was quite an irrational response to a fear of something Bobby Henderson didn't understand. Again like Santa Clause, the circumstances around the origin of the FSM are known. This points to that reasonable assumption that it does not exist.
If you were to read the Gospel, the New Testament, you would not find a single undesirable trait espoused. You would find instructions to improve your life. Even if you choose not to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the precepts taught by Jesus are an excellent guide to living your life. There is no atheistic teaching other than God doesn't exist. No moral direction, no compass with which to guide you in life, truly nothing. Well there is one thing, my dad said "Being an atheist would be a lot less expensive."
When my parents told me Santa Claus and company were baloney God went out the window.
Wow your friends sound really incredibly bad. Whenever I've thrown large parties I get catering and rent out a hall or a tavern. However for smaller get togethers nothing of what you've described happens, sometimes people may not realise we've got a collection box or bin for bottles and cans separate to all the other rubbish. I usually serve in disposable cups and plates and have the "party" outside so it's easier to clean and less of the expensive insides of the house are compromised. I usually make it BYO (Brying Your Own) for alcohol and I supply all the food. However I will stock up on good beers, premixed drinks and liquor. However in the latter situation at other people's parties I have found half full cans.
At even smaller gatherings where everybody can say fit around a table or 2 I use all normal breakable crockery and glasses and can't remember anything breaking.
I do get annoyed when people use the kitchen sink to wash their hands as I try to keep my food prep area cleaner than the rest of the house.
Overall your friends really sound like slobs!
Nissan GTR
Finally! Such a momentous occasion has arisen. I wasn't expecting a very pretty design going on the line of cars it has succeeded (badged as Nissan Skyline GTR in Australia). According to Nissan and / or the Tokyo motorshow, the car seems to have been made to compete with the Porsche 911. I don't doubt that it will give the Porsche a fight with it's price point but it's not going to appeal to the luxury and status driven crowds. I'm all for putting in the new technology and the Japanese cars always seem to be more willing to do it.
I want Toyota to redo the Supra now!
The Consumer is Wrong!
Wow, I didn't expect such a moral driven story to arise from contemporary news. It's usually people getting screwed by the boss or the company these days.
Creationism using Science
Please forgive my fellow Christians we get very excited trying to "prove" ours is the one true way. It can be a hard sell if you go on nothing but faith.
Christians get excited alright, they took a similar route to the Nazis when it came to religion in the crusades.
"Christan?"
"No. "
"Then die!"
They even went through the phase of trying to sell me their religion as if it was a vaccum cleaner, except this appliance in a book was supposed to take all my troubles away.
In addition, they seem to want to invade TV land with Christaincentric shows or become heads of state and use the Christian god's name to fuel more war.
I think it is clear FSM was created by a man with a specific purpose in mind. I do not think that any intelligent person actually worships the flying spaghetti monster, or that a being as such exists.
I think it is clear that God was created by a man with a specific prupose in mind. I do not think that any intelligent person actually worships God, or that a being as such exists.
If I remember correctly you have said you are atheistic, belief that there is no God makes you just as much of a crackpot. You have no evidence there is no God. Logic should push you to agnosticism. We have the evidence that Santa Clause does not live at the north pole, there is no evidence that God is not in heaven. You see, we have evidence that there is nothing there in Santa's case. We have no way to prove God isn't there. If you think your belief in no God is in any way superior to my belief in God you are delusional.
You have no evidence there is a God.
You take that back!! SANTA CLAUS DOES SO EXIST!!! He does so live at the north pole, what evidence do you have that he doesn't? How do you know he's not just under the north pole or well hidden? If you think your belief in no Santa Clause is in any way superior to my belief in Santa Claus, you are delusional.
the circumstances around the origin of the FSM are known. This points to that reasonable assumption that it does not exist
The circumstances around the origin of God are known. This points to that reasonable assumption that God does not exist.
Now, who wrote the New Testament? The Old Testament? Genesis? Most probably a man. What makes you so sure that that guy wasn't insane? That he wasn't seeing and hearing things? That he didn't start a chainreaction of "God is in the skies and watches over all of us and punishes us if we do wrong!". In the same way as happen with cults. Some idiot has an illusion, writes down what he hears and opens his new religion to the world. And will get some followers eventually, faster if said people really really really want to explain causes of all sorts of natural events (Think lightning, Thor, Zues, God). Said religion will be quickly adopted for it gives people the chance to explain thing around them. And of course, amongst those new followers are also nutjobs with illusions, and write what they hear from God on paper too.
A start so you can start reading up on this
Secular Ethics
Secular Humanism
Actually, mortality where you fear the wraith of a vengeful god is the weakest mortality system. It's better to do things for the sake of doing good things then to do things because you fear burning in hell or the wrath of a angry god.
Think about this for a moment. If you had a child, would you be more proud of the child for donating to Charity because they wanted to make a positive difference or because you threatened them with punishment.
Scott Johnson has never not supplied Alcohol when he goes up to the geekhouse for a game or party, unless he is told that his supply (otherwise known as "Rym's stocked bar") is still pretty much full. (Since other then Rym, Pete, Kate and Wyatt noone has more then one drink) That is all.
"... the seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."
Joshua 6:21:
"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."
Joshua 10:40-41:
"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon."
Genocide much? New Testament, Old Testament, it's all supposed to be the word of God, right? My friend, I thought at first that you were just a religious geek. Now however, it's clear you're just a troll or a moron. The bible is full of wonderful moral values in addition to genocide such as murdering children. What a great book.
In the case of FSM the answers are: Bobby Henderson, he is currently living, he invented FSM to block creationism in public school, and he went to school Oregon State University. This is good evidence that FSM does not exist, it is not proof that God does or does not exist.
The atheist response will presuppose that the burden of proof lies on the side of the Christian. That is your faith, your dogma. Many atheists believe that Santa Clause is on the same level as God, or fabrication of your own deity or extraordinary claim disproves God. Is it possible to prove that without God we would come the same ethical conclusions we now hold? Prove it. Since you can not prove that ethics evolved from instinct, or that we are all basically good so we know murder is wrong, secular humanism is just another belief, an atheistic belief. I can prove that left to their own devices a human being will drink malt vinegar, puke on his mom's stuff and blame someone else.
Nineless: hence the italics around "to me". I don't need any proof of God's existence, however I can appreciate the wonderful and marvelous things he has created. Pointing out that I may have made a slight contradiction there does not disprove God. I do not think it is a contradiction, I did not ask you to believe in God because my sons exists. (Even though my wife and I tried to have kids for 8 years, and doctors told us my wife would not be able to have kids, oh and they are cute, can't explain that either.)
You don't even understand Christianity why are you commenting? "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, and that whosoever believes in him shall NOT perish but have eternal life." JOHN 3:16. You have to have heard that before right? So lets break this down. God's law, Moses' law, the old testament you had to follow the law or you would perish. That is called Judaism. The New Testament explains that Jesus was the literal son of God. It explains that He walked the earth, taught about peace and the peace of God's love, and did not sin. He was crucified, died, fought Satan and rose from the dead. His sacrifice washed away all sin. You sin and my sin (yeah your, even if you don't believe, Jesus believes in you) so if we believe in Him, if we give ourselves over to this Divine Truth we are saved from sin and death. We give money to charity because it makes Jesus happy not because it makes God mad if we don't. I must as a Christian strive to be the best son, husband, father, employee, neighbor, and friend I can be, not to keep God from anger but as thanks for giving his Son to wash away the wrong I have done. THAT is what it means to be a Christian. Please think about that, it might change your view of the faith. Hopefully you learned something.
I am trying to hold an intelligent discourse on the existence of God. Name calling isn't really necessary. I've read about agnosticism, and atheism, I understand the views, I do not believe them. If you want to understand and be able to argue points against Christianity perhaps a little research is in order. I would suggest C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, or perhaps something more contemporary Ravi Zacharais has many books and even a weekly podcast. Ravi Zacharais has several question and answer sessions on university campus's that are very good. Answering many of the questions posed here, and debating many atheist beliefs.
God bless
It's funny that you completely ignored the links showing how mortality evolved.... and showing a secular system of ethics... and went on to say that their is no way this has developed without christianity. I do believe that ethicial systems developed in China and other remote places (like native americans) before there was christianity in those parts....
As for the contradiction, there were no clues for you. How can we trust what you say is your honest opinion then? Faith?
In the old Testament God helped his people live according to the law. Yes they were also punished for not following the law. Joshua was leading God's chosen people back into their land that they were removed from by the Egyptians. Actually famine was as much to blame for them leaving Israel a the Egyptians. When they got to Egypt they were enslaved and not allowed to return home. God lead His people back to their land, the land they were kept from. He assisted them in reclaiming that land. In order to protect His people and keep them from sin he helped them clear the pagans from Israel.
We are kinda getting off track. Existence or non existence of God is based on faith. If you believe that from chaos everything sprang to existence. It aligned in such a way as to produce sentient life, and to extend secular humanism and evolution would mean that at some point we would become nearly perfect or perfect beings. To me that seems the harder faith to follow. Agnostic is the easy one, there is no faith just the idea that there may or may not be a higher power, and plant yourself firmly on the fence of doubt.
Ephesians 6:10-20
"That's where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. I know some of you are going to say "I did look it up, and that's not true." That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that's how our nervous system works." -- Stephen Colbert
Not good for God's an asshole. Let me tell you on what I base this. He orders his people to murder his other creations, other people, with which reason? Because they could not read the then existing bible? That's because he forced a different language down their throat for building a tower! AGAINST THEIR WILL! Then he let his creations capture his chosen people and promised them he would someday lead them out. Why not just send those 7 plaques upon his creations instantly? Why did he create pain, suffering, evil, satan/lucifer, that tree in the garden of Eden?!? Why did he give people free will to then force upon them religion if they want to go to heaven? God looks a lot like a 12 year old with a magnifying glass and an anthill. He helps one half of the anthill if he feels like it, and fries every ant he sees on the other side. Answer these questions with answers, not questions am_dragon.
"Repent! Repent! Do good, God is good!" "God did bad too, why can't I follow his lead and do bad too?"
Credit to WIP for digging this up a few months ago.
Free will answers most of your questions. Some believe that Satan, along with other angels had free will. They decided to rebel against God. They were cast out of heaven. Will we worship God given free will? Will we obey? Eve was tempted and Adam lied they were cast out of the garden of eden. So back to earth where Satan still has providence to tempt, to deceive. An imperfect world where we must work to make our way. Would we still believe, would we still obey God? Circumstances in the Bible end up the way they do because of man not following God. Read the story of Joseph, his brothers were jealous of him, they thew him in a pit and told their father he was killed by wolves. Joseph was taken to Egypt as a slave. He trusted God and eventually rose to a position that had him advising the pharaoh. God did not put him there directly, but he was blessed by his faith in God. I can't answer all of why God does what he does. The book of Job is a really good story though, and it may give you some insight on free will. A parent has unconditional love for their children. There is a point that a child can reach that will push the parent away. If the child recants and asks forgiveness of the parent then that unconditional parenting love comes back, or is displayed. That is the closest analogy I can make on the subject.
Does God really do bad things? I don't think that is the case, I believe it is the will of man, the wiles of Satan, and this imperfect world. I think that's enough for now, I have other things to tend to. You are welcome to PM or e-mail me if you have more questions.
And that's a very neat image Jason.
EDIT: A question totally unrelated to religion. Are you a politician?
Read each book, not just the passage, they took the quotes from then we will talk.