I think Viga's response is a sign of the pressure society puts on women to be more like men. All of the women to respond to this thread have chosen to describe their own womanly behavior as 'weird' or 'nonexistent'.
When we don't embrace diversity and see the good that comes from it, there is pressure to not be diverse. With this, we all lose. Let's see if we can't stop brushing off our own experiences as isolated cases of the weird and treat this as a learning opportunity.
Besides, in this class when you get an A+, you get laid.
I think Viga's response is a sign of the pressure society puts on women to be more like men. All of the women to respond to this thread have chosen to describe their own womanly behavior as 'weird' or 'nonexistent'
Um, I wasn't pressured to think like a man. My tomboyish lifestyle growing up and my mom also taking the role of dad growing up could've had an influence on my present day unfeminine thoughts. If anything I was pressured to be like a woman and think like a woman should and be a real woman.
When we don't embrace diversity and see the good that comes from it, there is pressure to not be diverse. With this, we all lose. Let's see if we can't stop brushing off our own experiences as isolated cases of the weird and treat this as a learning opportunity.
Speaking of gender roles... did you know that UbiSoft is putting out a DS game called "Imagine Babyz"?
lets players become a babysitter and take care of up to six babies. Players are given the task of changing diapers, monitoring the babies’ health, preparing bottles and feeding the babies and taking the babies out for walks.
When we don't embrace diversity and see the good that comes from it, there is pressure to not be diverse. With this, we all lose. Let's see if we can't stop brushing off our own experiences as isolated cases of the weird and treat this as a learning opportunity.
What is this? Star Trek: The Next Generation? It's much more fun to bitch and moan.
I am particularly interested in seeing a woman post about the things she doesn't like about guys. The bitchier and moanier the better.
Speaking of gender roles... did you know that UbiSoft is putting out a DS game called "Imagine Babyz"?
lets players become a babysitter and take care of up to six babies. Players are given the task of changing diapers, monitoring the babies’ health, preparing bottles and feeding the babies and taking the babies out for walks.
Yeah, sounds like soooo much fun!
Once I worked in a toy store (surprising but true), and there was this dollhouse deal that advertised itself as a "fun way to rearrange furniture and decorate". Rearranging furniture is work, not fun.
What is this?Star Trek: The Next Generation? It's much more fun to bitch and moan. I am particularly interested in seeing a woman post about the things she doesn't like about guys. The bitchier and moanier the better.
I would go there, but at the same time, I would probably come off as crazy or silly. I like cosmicenema's Star Trek approach. I'm at point in my relationship right now where things are going great where I don't have to worry or stress about the little annoyances.
Like, Viga, I grew up as a tomboy. I am in an nuclear family: mother, father, older brother, dog. I don't consider myself really feminine. I get along better with guys than girls. I like doing geeky things that my mother doesn't understand. Even though I consider myself a tomboy and what not, I've realized when it comes to certain aspects of relationships or how I like things done (cleaning), I'm very similar to my mother. I find it ironic because like most women, they always seem to not want to be compared to their mother or shown to have similarities, when in the end they are pretty much like them. Doesn't really matter to me. I love my mom. She's hilarious, but bat shit crazy.
So, hungryjoe, if you want ranting and bitching about guys, I'll have to think about it. However, I have more stories about my boyfriend's friends to bitch about then my boyfriend, that I can think of at the moment.
When we don't embrace diversity and see the good that comes from it, there is pressure to not be diverse. With this, we all lose. Let's see if we can't stop brushing off our own experiences as isolated cases of the weird and treat this as a learning opportunity.
What is this?Star Trek: The Next Generation? It's much more fun to bitch and moan.
You're showing your age here Joe. Our generation actually believes in diversity and differences. This isn't Star Trek, it's real life; it's the work place; and it's on your internets.
My tomboyish lifestyle growing up and my mom also taking the role of dad growing up could've had an influence on my present day unfeminine thoughts.
I'm not trying to judge you so please don't take this personally. I'm just saying I know a lot of women that do exactly what you're doing; they 'consider themselves tomboyish' or 'have more guy friends then girl friends'. This is thanks to the feminist movement bringing us all towards the mean. Metro-sexual is the new Working-Man.
I too grew up with only my mother playing both the Mother and Father roles. Would it be interesting to you that I consider that this experience made me more in tune with the feminine just as it made you more in tune with the masculine? It isn't that you're a tomboy, it's that we're all less-gendered. Does this eliminate the differences? No. It just means that we've moved from an 'either-or' kind of world with rare outliers towards a true spectrum. I've met men and women along the entire line of this spectrum. Gender matters less when identifying communication styles, but it still matters.
In relationships this means people like Joe and his wife are perfect for each other. The masculine and feminine, while opposites, truly compliment. They may say they want their wives to 'think more like men' but that's not truly the case. If they were more gender-neutral, they would've been with someone more gender neutral. The more you lean towards the masculine spectrum, the more you need someone from the feminine spectrum to compliment you.
You're showing your age here Joe. Our generation actually believes in diversity and differences. This isn't Star Trek, it's real life; it's the work place; and it's on your internets.
I really don't mean to offend you, but I just feel the urge to rip this sentence to shreds. *ahem* Considering how much you talk about diversity, you sure show a tendency to divide people into groups. "Our generation believes in" or women are this and that so accept them the way they are... I really don't think general statements like that are of any value here. Also, a thread about gender differences on the internet is not a "learning opportunity". Frankly, if you're not careful, you might end up thinking too much in categories like man-woman or anything like that.
As for me, I treat people mostly as individuals. The only difference I make I can think of right now is that I kick women less hard in taekwondo by default. Of course I notice that my female friends have their own ways that my male friends don't have, but I don't think that is something to be criticized. I react to them normally, and they have to deal with it. End of story.
I really don't mean to offend you, but I just feel the urge to rip this sentence to shreds.
I hereby pledge to take nothing on said to me on the internets personally.
Considering how much you talk about diversity, you sure show a tendency to divide people into groups. "Our generation believes in" or women are this and that so accept them the way they are... I really don't think general statements like that are of any value here.
Diversity is about embracing differences. Such differences would include differences between groups. It's a common misconception that diversity means treating everyone like there are no differences. This is an absurd fallacy.
Also, a thread about gender differences on the internet is not a "learning opportunity". Frankly, if you're not careful, you might end up thinking too much in categories like man-woman or anything like that.
You'll notice I said nothing about this thread being a learning opportunity, only that your experiences could be a learning opportunity. If you're going to 'shred' a sentence, read it first.
Let's see if we can't stop brushing off our own experiences as isolated cases of the weird and treat this as a learning opportunity.
Moving on:
Of course I notice that my female friends have their own ways that my male friends don't have, but I don't think that is something to be criticized. I react to them normally, and they have to deal with it. End of story.
So you admit there are differences. If you take the attitude that peoples differences are a good thing, something you can learn from and embrace them, then you don't have the problems that come with "and they have to deal with it".
Human beings are animals that instinctually judge their surroundings. If I see a dog wagging it's tail with it's tongue hanging out, I may pet it. If I see the same dog with it's tail between it's legs, it's teeth barred and foam around it's mouth, I'd likely shoot it before pet it. We group everything around us into our experience. By treating everyone as though their the same we're missing opportunities to better interact with our environment. If I meet a person and within moments recognize that they're speaking to me using decision focused semantics, I can react differently to them. As they move into social focused semantics, I can just as easily follow them because I am recognizing their differences. Understanding and utilizing differences is what allows you to communicate and interact with people who are not like you.
This attitude of "I react to them normally, and they have to deal with it" is terribly short sighted, although politically safe. You group people just like everyone else. By not embracing your natural ability to identify differences and groups, you're doing yourself and those around you a great disservice.
I tried to treat my wife like an equal. She didn't like it and still refuses to take out the trash. She says it's "man work". I then told her, "you do know blow jobs are woman's work, right? I'll take out the trash and all the other 'man' work as long as you do all the 'woman' work." She liked that comment even less.
In the end she decided it was better to be on a pedestal than walking around in the shit like the rest of us men do.
All right, it seems I have to clarify some points, and I will also promise to not take anything personally. I'll start out with: You're right, I seem to have misunderstood your sentence. My bad.
Yes, I group people. But that is only a temporary judgement for when I first see them. I see a person, and, if I choose to interact with the subject, I judge it first. Age, Sex, clothing/appearance (when I still had long hair, I'd get into random conversations on the train with other obviously metal-liking people) and things the situation tells me. Then I decide how to approach them. It's not like I ignore the impressions I first get. It's not like I could, even if I wanted. Now, when I already know the people, it's an entirely different story. Groups no longer matter, I know how the people are like and how to not offend them (or how to offend them, in some cases).
Now, when I say 'they have to deal with it': I have very little expectations of the people around me. If someone still manages to offend me (which is hard), it doesn't matter what group they belong to or whatever, I won't be less offended because it's a man or a woman. I evaluate their behaviour equally.
About "embracing differences": "We should embrace diversity" is a very hollow phrase to me, thus it annoys me. Diversity is a very wide field, and if you just say "Oh mans, diversity is the business", it means about as much as "we should all cherish the number 5 more." If you're going to use this thread as a platform for you to voice what you would like society to be like, saying you think diversity is important holds little to no information, because there's always some kind of diversity no matter what. Please elaborate, and include examples.
Now, when I already know the people, it's an entirely different story. Groups no longer matter, I know how the people are like and how to not offend them (or how to offend them, in some cases).
Exactly. I think we're seeing eye to eye.
If you're going to use this thread as a platform for you to voice what you would like society to be like, saying you think diversity is important holds little to no information, because there's always some kind of diversity no matter what.
I feel as though I've described my position fairly thoroughly in the few thousand words I've posted up to this point. I think diversity is important because differences are important. I think it's short-sighted to use your subjective experience to force objective reality into a politically correct mold.
This whole thread seems to be turning into "how to understand women". I find your answers entertaining.
To be quite honest, I do believe women tend to focus on the social effects of a decision rather than the direct consequence(s) of it. It's simply our nature. We are meant to help nurture and care for children, and that's naturally how we perceive problems. A simple example is that women tend to hold belongings and books up against their chest, as men usually carry them on their side. It's just nature kicking in. Women are just naturally protective.
When I'm feeling upset or distraught, I usually tell my friends my problems, not for advice, but for a sympathetic word. I want them to tell me they care, because it makes me feel better. When my guy friends tell me about their problems, they're usually just looking for straight-forward advice.
My friends have always told me that I'm the "innocent feminine one" of the bunch. I get along great with both guys and girls, but I find it easier to talk about my problems with girls. Whenever my friends need advice or just need to talk, they come to me. I guess I'm kind of the motherly one of the group, because I always try to make everyone happy and protect them all naturally. I don't know if it's because of how I've grown up, but that's just the way it is for me.
I think it all depends on the level (or rather type) of communication we're talking about.I mean, talking about diversity in the workplace is all good and well, but does it even matter? When communication serves the only the purpose of getting information across, there's really no difference. "I need that part of this eye operation video" is not a particularily male or female sentence. No difference there. I can't really say anything about styles of leadership, though, because there's not really a hierarchy or anything like that where I work now, because we're just four people. We simply get our stuff done. Before that, I was in the military, and there, the style of leadership is military, genders don't matter. So, from my experience, concerning genders, there's really no such thing as diversity in the workplace, because people behave the same. However, my work experience is very limited, so maybe someone can enlighten me.
Friendships: I'd notice that I usually socialize with my male friends when there's some kind of activity or something that brings us together, for example sports or some kind of game. My female friends are the ones who get people together without any particular reason, and I really like that. The guys just wouldn't organize that type of thing. At one occasion, one of my female friends suggested going into the mountains, and I ended up being the one to pick a route and drive the people there, so she made the decision, and I executed it. So it's not like a focus on decisions is a masculine thing, in fact, most of the time, we really can't be bothered to make any decisions and are in this state of not thinking anything. So people behave different here, but it's not a question of me embracing or rejecting it. It's just their way of doing things, what am I gonna do about it? I'd also notice that friendships between women seem to be a lot more complicated than male friendships, but I can't really say anything more about that, because I lack inside knowledge.
Okay, this thread is epic, I picked a long one to jump into. Well, here we go!
Okay, with differences and diversity. I'm sick of hearing about diversity. People are different, who cares? Move on! So what if that guy is brown, and that girl likes girls and that guy is Republican? It's the fact that people are different that makes this world an interesting one to live in.
With the fact that men are different from women, deal with it! We will always be different, forever and ever. The moment that men and women are the same, Mankind is done. Finished, Over. Men do this, Women do this. Okay, but you know what, again, that's a good thing.
With the original topic (I think), men do have different arguments than women because men think different than women. Men think about things as having a goal, and we are always working toward that goal. Women seem to work toward an idea, like happiness or love, instead of a physical thing. It's basically an extension of the "A box would be nice" as opposed to "I want a box". They think the idea of a box there is good, but their thoughts are not working toward getting the box.
I really wasn't expecting a discussion like this when I came to these forums, but I'm glad to find a bastion of intelligent people, here on these internets.
Why is it that when a naked man is startled he puts his hands over his penis yet when a naked woman is startled she puts her hands over her face?
I don't think I've had this experience really that much, so I can't give an explanation. Whenever I'm naked, I'm normally getting ready for going out, and it's fairly had to get me startled I guess. =/
Why is it that when a naked man is startled he puts his hands over his penis yet when a naked woman is startled she puts her hands over her face?
How do you know all this? Do you make a practice of startling naked people?
I spent five years in the military as a single man living in the barracks. If you think college dorm living is "interesting" try imagining the same lifestyle where everyone is bent on being manly as opposed to being intelligent.
You're showing your age here Joe. Our generation actually believes in diversity and differences.
Yeah, well your generation sucks.
My Generation: Stopped Vietnam, Started and maintained the best Rock 'n' Roll, and Free Love.
Your Generation:American Idol, Pokeballs, and Total Apathy.
Don't you be knocking the PokeBalls!!!
As for maintaining Rock 'n' Roll... I would love for many of those classic rock stations to die in a fire. I heard those songs 30 years ago when they were new and I'm tired of hearing them. A lot of those stations offer "no repeat workdays". I called and asked them to do a "no repeat workweek" and they laughed at me. I guess there are not enough songs to fill a workweek without repeating.
You're showing your age here Joe. Our generation actually believes in diversity and differences.
Yeah, well your generation sucks.
My Generation: Stopped Vietnam, Started and maintained the best Rock 'n' Roll, and Free Love.
Your Generation:American Idol, Pokeballs, and Total Apathy.
We wouldn't have any of those things if it weren't for you setting them up for us. You cleaned up the problems your parents created and made things all nice for us. Meanwhile, now we're trying to clean up the problems you made that you don't even realize are problems, like not maintaining infrastructure or adopting new technology rapidly enough.
This one is truly interesting because I think every generation has this feeling about younger generations. Of course we don't care about your issues. We have our own. Our priorities are those of twenty-somethings, not forty-somethings. I bet your priorities were similar to what ours are now (see 'Free Love'). God forbid I'm more focused on getting a good career, driving a fun car, and having a good time over retirement, social security, and oil prices. I call jealousy.
Yeah, JFK was 18 when he sent in the first advisors.
Kojak was cool, Pet Rocks were coolly ironic. Face it, we MADE pop culture. At least all the good bits. You guys mostly just do mash-ups of it.
God forbid I'm more focused on getting a good career, driving a fun car, and having a good time over retirement, social security, and oil prices. I call jealousy.
Seems like you're mostly focused on yourself, except maybe for the oil; and I've never seen anyone from your generation try to do anything about that.
God forbid I'm more focused on getting a good career, driving a fun car, and having a good time over retirement, social security, and oil prices. I call jealousy.
Seems like you're mostly focused on yourself, except maybe for the oil; and I've never seen anyone from your generation try to do anything about that.
1. Oh yeah, our generation believes in differences. Especially those young eastern German neo-nazis I read so much in the news about. 2. Stopped Vietnam, started the next war. And the one after that. And the one after that. 3. "pop culture" is a horrible expression, and anyone who uses it frequently shows that he has no idea about the history of art and music.
Guess what: People as a whole always sucked and will always suck. God damn.
Comments
When we don't embrace diversity and see the good that comes from it, there is pressure to not be diverse. With this, we all lose. Let's see if we can't stop brushing off our own experiences as isolated cases of the weird and treat this as a learning opportunity.
Besides, in this class when you get an A+, you get laid.
I am particularly interested in seeing a woman post about the things she doesn't like about guys. The bitchier and moanier the better. Once I worked in a toy store (surprising but true), and there was this dollhouse deal that advertised itself as a "fun way to rearrange furniture and decorate". Rearranging furniture is work, not fun.
Like, Viga, I grew up as a tomboy. I am in an nuclear family: mother, father, older brother, dog. I don't consider myself really feminine. I get along better with guys than girls. I like doing geeky things that my mother doesn't understand. Even though I consider myself a tomboy and what not, I've realized when it comes to certain aspects of relationships or how I like things done (cleaning), I'm very similar to my mother. I find it ironic because like most women, they always seem to not want to be compared to their mother or shown to have similarities, when in the end they are pretty much like them. Doesn't really matter to me. I love my mom. She's hilarious, but bat shit crazy.
So, hungryjoe, if you want ranting and bitching about guys, I'll have to think about it. However, I have more stories about my boyfriend's friends to bitch about then my boyfriend, that I can think of at the moment.
I too grew up with only my mother playing both the Mother and Father roles. Would it be interesting to you that I consider that this experience made me more in tune with the feminine just as it made you more in tune with the masculine? It isn't that you're a tomboy, it's that we're all less-gendered. Does this eliminate the differences? No. It just means that we've moved from an 'either-or' kind of world with rare outliers towards a true spectrum. I've met men and women along the entire line of this spectrum. Gender matters less when identifying communication styles, but it still matters.
In relationships this means people like Joe and his wife are perfect for each other. The masculine and feminine, while opposites, truly compliment. They may say they want their wives to 'think more like men' but that's not truly the case. If they were more gender-neutral, they would've been with someone more gender neutral. The more you lean towards the masculine spectrum, the more you need someone from the feminine spectrum to compliment you.
*ahem*
Considering how much you talk about diversity, you sure show a tendency to divide people into groups. "Our generation believes in" or women are this and that so accept them the way they are... I really don't think general statements like that are of any value here.
Also, a thread about gender differences on the internet is not a "learning opportunity". Frankly, if you're not careful, you might end up thinking too much in categories like man-woman or anything like that.
As for me, I treat people mostly as individuals. The only difference I make I can think of right now is that I kick women less hard in taekwondo by default.
Of course I notice that my female friends have their own ways that my male friends don't have, but I don't think that is something to be criticized. I react to them normally, and they have to deal with it. End of story.
Human beings are animals that instinctually judge their surroundings. If I see a dog wagging it's tail with it's tongue hanging out, I may pet it. If I see the same dog with it's tail between it's legs, it's teeth barred and foam around it's mouth, I'd likely shoot it before pet it. We group everything around us into our experience. By treating everyone as though their the same we're missing opportunities to better interact with our environment. If I meet a person and within moments recognize that they're speaking to me using decision focused semantics, I can react differently to them. As they move into social focused semantics, I can just as easily follow them because I am recognizing their differences. Understanding and utilizing differences is what allows you to communicate and interact with people who are not like you.
This attitude of "I react to them normally, and they have to deal with it" is terribly short sighted, although politically safe. You group people just like everyone else. By not embracing your natural ability to identify differences and groups, you're doing yourself and those around you a great disservice.
In the end she decided it was better to be on a pedestal than walking around in the shit like the rest of us men do.
I'll start out with: You're right, I seem to have misunderstood your sentence. My bad.
Yes, I group people. But that is only a temporary judgement for when I first see them. I see a person, and, if I choose to interact with the subject, I judge it first. Age, Sex, clothing/appearance (when I still had long hair, I'd get into random conversations on the train with other obviously metal-liking people) and things the situation tells me. Then I decide how to approach them. It's not like I ignore the impressions I first get. It's not like I could, even if I wanted.
Now, when I already know the people, it's an entirely different story. Groups no longer matter, I know how the people are like and how to not offend them (or how to offend them, in some cases).
Now, when I say 'they have to deal with it': I have very little expectations of the people around me. If someone still manages to offend me (which is hard), it doesn't matter what group they belong to or whatever, I won't be less offended because it's a man or a woman. I evaluate their behaviour equally.
About "embracing differences":
"We should embrace diversity" is a very hollow phrase to me, thus it annoys me. Diversity is a very wide field, and if you just say "Oh mans, diversity is the business", it means about as much as "we should all cherish the number 5 more."
If you're going to use this thread as a platform for you to voice what you would like society to be like, saying you think diversity is important holds little to no information, because there's always some kind of diversity no matter what. Please elaborate, and include examples.
To be quite honest, I do believe women tend to focus on the social effects of a decision rather than the direct consequence(s) of it. It's simply our nature. We are meant to help nurture and care for children, and that's naturally how we perceive problems. A simple example is that women tend to hold belongings and books up against their chest, as men usually carry them on their side. It's just nature kicking in. Women are just naturally protective.
When I'm feeling upset or distraught, I usually tell my friends my problems, not for advice, but for a sympathetic word. I want them to tell me they care, because it makes me feel better. When my guy friends tell me about their problems, they're usually just looking for straight-forward advice.
My friends have always told me that I'm the "innocent feminine one" of the bunch. I get along great with both guys and girls, but I find it easier to talk about my problems with girls. Whenever my friends need advice or just need to talk, they come to me. I guess I'm kind of the motherly one of the group, because I always try to make everyone happy and protect them all naturally. I don't know if it's because of how I've grown up, but that's just the way it is for me.
Friendships: I'd notice that I usually socialize with my male friends when there's some kind of activity or something that brings us together, for example sports or some kind of game. My female friends are the ones who get people together without any particular reason, and I really like that. The guys just wouldn't organize that type of thing.
At one occasion, one of my female friends suggested going into the mountains, and I ended up being the one to pick a route and drive the people there, so she made the decision, and I executed it. So it's not like a focus on decisions is a masculine thing, in fact, most of the time, we really can't be bothered to make any decisions and are in this state of not thinking anything.
So people behave different here, but it's not a question of me embracing or rejecting it. It's just their way of doing things, what am I gonna do about it?
I'd also notice that friendships between women seem to be a lot more complicated than male friendships, but I can't really say anything more about that, because I lack inside knowledge.
Why is it that when a naked man is startled he puts his hands over his penis yet when a naked woman is startled she puts her hands over her face?
But that's just me.
Okay, with differences and diversity. I'm sick of hearing about diversity. People are different, who cares? Move on! So what if that guy is brown, and that girl likes girls and that guy is Republican? It's the fact that people are different that makes this world an interesting one to live in.
With the fact that men are different from women, deal with it! We will always be different, forever and ever. The moment that men and women are the same, Mankind is done. Finished, Over. Men do this, Women do this. Okay, but you know what, again, that's a good thing.
With the original topic (I think), men do have different arguments than women because men think different than women. Men think about things as having a goal, and we are always working toward that goal. Women seem to work toward an idea, like happiness or love, instead of a physical thing. It's basically an extension of the "A box would be nice" as opposed to "I want a box". They think the idea of a box there is good, but their thoughts are not working toward getting the box.
I really wasn't expecting a discussion like this when I came to these forums, but I'm glad to find a bastion of intelligent people, here on these internets.
My Generation: Stopped Vietnam, Started and maintained the best Rock 'n' Roll, and Free Love.
Your Generation: American Idol, Pokeballs, and Total Apathy.
As for maintaining Rock 'n' Roll... I would love for many of those classic rock stations to die in a fire. I heard those songs 30 years ago when they were new and I'm tired of hearing them. A lot of those stations offer "no repeat workdays". I called and asked them to do a "no repeat workweek" and they laughed at me. I guess there are not enough songs to fill a workweek without repeating.
Kojak was cool, Pet Rocks were coolly ironic. Face it, we MADE pop culture. At least all the good bits. You guys mostly just do mash-ups of it.
Seems like you're mostly focused on yourself, except maybe for the oil; and I've never seen anyone from your generation try to do anything about that.
1. Oh yeah, our generation believes in differences. Especially those young eastern German neo-nazis I read so much in the news about.
2. Stopped Vietnam, started the next war. And the one after that. And the one after that.
3. "pop culture" is a horrible expression, and anyone who uses it frequently shows that he has no idea about the history of art and music.
Guess what: People as a whole always sucked and will always suck. God damn.