I thought that by stating that you could drive faster in snowy conditions because it is SAFER, I was making it abundantly clear that I was speaking in jest. Apparently you all decided this is serious thread, so facetious cat had to leave.
Totally. They had one at the Euro-Car dealer in my city and I had to seriously resist. It was $40k, used, 1500 miles. The suckers are stupid light (under a ton if you get the one without the air conditioner and why wouldn't you?) and obscenely fast. You give me one of these and I'd be dead in a week. No kidding.
'68 Corvette)
My parents had one of those and sold it right before my sixteenth birthday. I've never really forgiven them for that and ever since then I've wanted one. Bad.
The sad thing is that I could probably get a hold of either of these cares. They aren't unreasonable super cars (or bat-mobiles) but they'd have to be the 'third-car' that you keep in a garage and only take out during the summer. I just can warrant that yet but you know, maybe someday, maybe someday soon.
Right now I just got a new car this weekend actually. My wife and I have been searching a long time for the right fit. The Audi A4 which is the perfect compromise car. It's sporty (manual), has the quattro AWD, and is total luxury. The wife likes it because it's safe with the front-rear side-impact airbags, AWD, and it's a four door. Somehow four door is a selling point. It's black with black leather interior and we call it the Bat-Cave (never ending gadgets) so that kinda counts right?
Then I'll put a Ron Paul bumper sticker on it and drive around town photographic police officers tasering people, which I'll publish to the web using my iPhone.
Wait, do I understand this correctly? Having a manual gearbox = sporty in the USA!?
All I meant was the that the manual one is a sporty drive, the automanual one is not so much. I'm also a bit of a purist. I really love my manual transmissions.
Tesla Roadster. Hands down.
It uses the Lotus Elise body so . . . I'll take one.
Wait, do I understand this correctly? Having a manual gearbox = sporty in the USA!?
In the US most people drive automatics. Most of the people who drive manual are ricers and such who think they are all sporty and cool. It's not the rule, but it's the general trend in the US. A lot of US people don't seem to realize most of the rest of the world drives stick and automatic is rarer. In fact, many people in the US don't even realize that cars can have a manual transmission. Automatic is all they know.
Most of the people who drive manual are ricers and such who think they are all sporty and cool. It's not the rule, but it's the general trend in the US.
This may be the rule in NYC but I wouldn't say the US. Most of the people I know who drive sticks in the Midwest do so on trucks. I have a hunch the reason your experience with people who drive manuals being ricers is because in NYC, those are the only people who work on their cars themselves. Around here it's a hobby. Following are cosmicenema's top reasons for driving a manual:
Cheaper to buy. Yes. They cost less.
Cheaper to maintain. Your transmission breaks less often and when it does, it's cheaper to fix.
Better gas mileage. My wife and I used to both drive neons. Same make, engine, curb weight, etc. Both maintained the same (I did it). I would get 32+ mpg average on mine where she'd get 22. Once we took my car to Chicago, in the snow, with four people and luggage for a week and we go 49.2 mpg the entire way there. Don't like my anecdotal evidence? Check out the EPAs website.
They're more fun and safer. I have more control in tough situations such as ice and snow and when I feel I need it, I can put the needle right in the HP or torque sweet spots every time.
They're also a bitch to learn, and take your focus off the road at key points, like when approaching intersections to make a turn.
The mileage gains are much smaller than individual anecdotes would have you believe; check out virtually any car that has an optional AT, and the difference will be about 1-2 mpg. This is caused by the inefficiency of an AT's torque converter.
An AT contains an ingenious and devilishly complex planetary gear system, which, admittedly, is more expensive and more prone to wear (thus, more maintenance).
Cars with stability control negate most of the advantage of MT when it comes to driving in adverse conditions. If you live in an area with snow, you should really consider stability control, no matter how good you may think you are at driving. Remember, most drivers think they're above average. Is it worth your life?
AT is not prone to stalling. An MT will stall whenever the wheels aren't moving, the clutch is engaged, and the engine is off power. This may not sound common, but it happens every time you're accelerating from a stop. This is probably the biggest stumbling block in learning to drive an MT.
If you're trained on an MT, go for it. It's second nature to you. The effect on your attention is negligible, and you gain the aforementioned benefits. If you just want the benefits without the learning curve, you may want to check out the many alternatives to simple MT and traditional AT. Many sport and luxury cars have AT with manual control, which you can use for sporty acceleration. Really spiffy cars even have automated manual transmission--best of both worlds.
Some modern cars (mostly hybrids) have CVT (Continuous Variable Transmission), which is theoretically the best possible transmission. In reality, it relies on friction and slipping, which is the same thing that makes the torque converter in an AT so inefficient.
Electric motors don't really need transmission, especially on-wheel ones. (AhemTeslaRoadsterAhem). Such cars might have a sort of "transmission", but it's far from conventional.
With the amount of change in cars nowadays, an older, simplistic view of transmission will rapidly become obselete. It's my hope that electric (on-wheel motor) cars will dominate the future, and transmission itself will become obselete.
I was going to start a thread with a similar topic, but hadn't gotten a chance to sit down and start it. Oh well, here are my top three cars:
I will buy myself a 65-67 Corvair once I have a real job and a place to store it.
I would also love an BMW E30 M3. I owned an 85' 318 and it was amazing.
This is my dream car. It is a Ultima GTR, a kit car that uses a Chevy V8 by default (I would move to a 3 or 4 rotor Wankel Rotary Engine). It produces around 400 bhp and ways less then a Mazda Miata.
I have a 1988 Porsche 911 Targa. It's in mint condition, has a whale tale and is black on black. It's my avatar pic. Guess what. I never drive it. I wanted that car my entire life. Three years ago, I bought it. It sits in my garage and looks pretty. Why is this the case? I have a company car with free gas.
So what do I drive every day while my dream car sits in my garage? A Honda Odyssey Touring. That's right, I drive a minivan.
I have a 1988 Porsche 911 Targa. It's in mint condition, has a whale tale and is black on black. It's my avatar pic. Guess what. I never drive it. I wanted that car my entire life. Three years ago, I bought it. It sits in my garage and looks pretty. Why is this the case? I have a company car with free gas.
So what do I drive every day while my dream car sits in my garage? A Honda Odyssey Touring. That's right, I drive a minivan.
One of my uncles is actually a single dentist, but owns many cars. He also owns a room of pinball machines he hardly ever plays. I also had a former boss who owned many cars, but rarely drove the awesome ones. This is something I see often, but I am still trying to figure out.
As I have said many times, I have the problem of having more things to do than free time in which do to them. There are a lot of things I could buy to entertain myself with, that I do not have time for. You can bet that I'd be in a similar situation if I won say, 100 DVDs, in a contest. I'd never watch them, and probably give most of them away. However, you won't see much stuff sitting around in my house unused. If I have something, like a book or a board game, that I never plan to use again, I try to get rid of it. On the same token, I don't go buying things that I don't have time to use. Instead, I save my money in hopes that I can use that savings to do something that will give me more free time to enjoy things than I currently have.
I mean, look at me. I could buy a 360 and an HDTV no sweat. I don't because every minute of time that I wish to devote to video gaming and big screen video entertainment is already accounted for. Buying more than I do would just give me stuff I don't use. If I suddenly won a Ferrari, I probably wouldn't keep it. Unless I somehow suddenly got enough free time to use it, it would just be a burden.
Why do people buy and/or keep things they don't ever use?
They're also a bitch to learn, and take your focus off the road at key points, like when approaching intersections to make a turn.
I completely disagree, it may be true that you can lose your focus when you’re learning, but once you get the hang of it, it's like second nature, you learn to listen and feel the engine.
I dunno because I actually do the same thing sometimes and I don't know why. I mean if things are cheap I'll buy pretty much anything. I took three volumes of Amazing Nurse Nanako off a friends hands for like five bucks but I'll be damned if I ever watch more than two episodes.
Anyway if I could have any car at all I would want to have something similar to Hitlers Mercedes only, ya know, without the whole nazi-deal. He was a horrible person be had great tastes in cars.
Actually if I could have anything as a means of transportation I would say without a second thought GaoGaiGar but that's entirely for different reasons.
and take your focus off the road at key points, like when approaching intersections to make a turn.
An MT will stall whenever the wheels aren't moving, the clutch is engaged, and the engine is off power. This may not sound common, but it happens every time you're accelerating from a stop.
You're doing it wrong! What do you think driving lessons are for? It takes 10 minutes longer to learn how to use the clutch and manual transmission. The rest of the time you're driving around learning how to behave in traffic. Now, I agree that it takes your focus of the road, when you're learning to drive. My driving instructor taught me how to use the clutch and transmission, let me drive (of course) a lesson or two without real comment, though saying from time to time I shouldn't follow my hand to the stick. And then the lesson after that he said, after having looked at the gear stick for the first time that lesson, that he'd wanted to hit me if I would look at that gear stick again. Rest of the lesson went good, and at one point I looked at the stick again, and the driving instructor slammed the brakes. Voila, Nine never looks at the stick again unless he's standing still in front of a red light to make sure that the transmission is in first. Mother's car is crap and old, I stall from time to time in it when trying to get up a slope from standstill since it has no power and the clutch slip is too close. It's a cute Golf though.
@ Cramit, that first car is hot. BMW's are awesome, and the third car is ugly imho.
The third car is fast...very fast. It, in it's standard configuration, does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. It was a test chassis for the Mclaren F1. Finally it only costs around $50,000 to build it yourself (which I think would b half the fun).
To say it takes 10 minutes to learn how to operate a stick shift is like saying it takes 10 minutes to learn how to sink a basketball. Sure, the explanation is brief, but if you mastered shifting in 10 minutes, perhaps you should apply to be a NASCAR driver. May your Internet penis grow long and hard.
Seriously, though, I believe the benefits of MT are small enough that it remains a personal choice, and people shouldn't be judged based on their preference for either transmission. Not everyone drives cars for the same reason; most just want to get from point A to point B. Nowadays, a great many people are concerned about the environment. For now, the best they (think) they can do is a 40 mpg hybrid. So if that's your concern, skip MT and go for the gold.
Whereas, if you really want fun on the road, you're probably looking at cars for which AT is not an option.
So really, I don't see any situation where the choice of MT vs AT is more than a minor, personal distinction.
So really, I don't see any situation where the choice of MT vs AT is more than a minor, personal distinction.
Price. Cars with MT are significantly less expensive in most cases. For example, if I had gotten a manual instead of an automatic, I would have saved at least $1000. That's a Freedom chair right there.
Sure, the explanation is brief, but if you mastered shifting in 10 minutes, perhaps you should apply to be a NASCAR driver.
I'll take that as a compliment if you change it to F1 driver. The only time an automatic will be faster than a manual is when there's a true Automanual (like the F1 cars). Those are amazingly fun to drive and somewhat expensive.
I test drove a lot of cars this past month while looking for what to buy. In the VW/Audi camp I drove almost everything in both manual and automatic and there wasn't a single car that I drove both in that didn't give me more control in the Manual. My A4 even has Electronic Stability Control and AWD plus it's a manual. I'm fairly sure there isn't much more I could do to the car save for road-condition-specific tires that would give me more control while on the road.
Anyone that looks at the stick when shifting is out of their mind. It'd be like looking at the break pedal when braking. You know where it is, settle down.
I don't see any situation where the choice of MT vs AT is more than a minor, personal distinction.
Never said it was anything other than a personal decision. Most things with a car are. The profundity astounds!
AFAIK F1 cars have sequential transmissions with paddle shifters.
And they're pretty awesome. Ever driven a car with one? I've driven an MR2 which is a similar version though my favorite is the DSG. I've tested that in a R32 with the paddle shifts and I have to admit it's a dream to drive. Note that these aren't the Ferrari models but they're competitive. The DSG has an up shift time of 8 ms compared to the sequential up-shift time of 150 ms. I'm pretty sure the fastest I could do it is around 500 ms so yeah, those transmissions are great if you can get 'em. I just didn't like the feel of the CVT in my Audi so I went for the Manual.
Now, when I can afford a car that has either the DSG or the SMT then I'd probably choose that over my manual. ^_~
Eh... when did I say I personally mastered manual transmission in 10 minutes? I recall saying that it takes 10 minutes to learn how to use it. And then practice. *gives Kenjura a bucket of ice* Chill man, don't be so hotheaded at people who learned how to drive a stick. I never said I judge people on what transmission they prefer. Hell, if I could care less then 0 I would do it, but alas, one cannot care less then nothing.
As for efficiency, I put my mother's 4 speed transmission in the 4 at 50 km/h. That's about 30 mph I think. 31.blablabla mph. You don't have that amount of control over an automatic, which changes gears at specific rpm rates. And afaik will probably never will change into 4 at 30 mph unless it's semi automatic.
@ Scott, that new Ferrari looks just like an Enzo, with white parts and minor details changed.
Comments
The sad thing is that I could probably get a hold of either of these cares. They aren't unreasonable super cars (or bat-mobiles) but they'd have to be the 'third-car' that you keep in a garage and only take out during the summer. I just can warrant that yet but you know, maybe someday, maybe someday soon.
Right now I just got a new car this weekend actually. My wife and I have been searching a long time for the right fit. The Audi A4 which is the perfect compromise car. It's sporty (manual), has the quattro AWD, and is total luxury. The wife likes it because it's safe with the front-rear side-impact airbags, AWD, and it's a four door. Somehow four door is a selling point. It's black with black leather interior and we call it the Bat-Cave (never ending gadgets) so that kinda counts right?
Then I'll put a Ron Paul bumper sticker on it and drive around town photographic police officers tasering people, which I'll publish to the web using my iPhone.
Go Digg.
Seriously, though, Tesla owns you all.
Oh, and most drag race cars have an automatic transmission.
To me, sports car = stupid fast car.
The mileage gains are much smaller than individual anecdotes would have you believe; check out virtually any car that has an optional AT, and the difference will be about 1-2 mpg. This is caused by the inefficiency of an AT's torque converter.
An AT contains an ingenious and devilishly complex planetary gear system, which, admittedly, is more expensive and more prone to wear (thus, more maintenance).
Cars with stability control negate most of the advantage of MT when it comes to driving in adverse conditions. If you live in an area with snow, you should really consider stability control, no matter how good you may think you are at driving. Remember, most drivers think they're above average. Is it worth your life?
AT is not prone to stalling. An MT will stall whenever the wheels aren't moving, the clutch is engaged, and the engine is off power. This may not sound common, but it happens every time you're accelerating from a stop. This is probably the biggest stumbling block in learning to drive an MT.
If you're trained on an MT, go for it. It's second nature to you. The effect on your attention is negligible, and you gain the aforementioned benefits. If you just want the benefits without the learning curve, you may want to check out the many alternatives to simple MT and traditional AT. Many sport and luxury cars have AT with manual control, which you can use for sporty acceleration. Really spiffy cars even have automated manual transmission--best of both worlds.
Some modern cars (mostly hybrids) have CVT (Continuous Variable Transmission), which is theoretically the best possible transmission. In reality, it relies on friction and slipping, which is the same thing that makes the torque converter in an AT so inefficient.
Electric motors don't really need transmission, especially on-wheel ones. (AhemTeslaRoadsterAhem). Such cars might have a sort of "transmission", but it's far from conventional.
With the amount of change in cars nowadays, an older, simplistic view of transmission will rapidly become obselete. It's my hope that electric (on-wheel motor) cars will dominate the future, and transmission itself will become obselete.
will buy myself a 65-67 Corvair once I have a real job and a place to store it.
I would also love an BMW E30 M3. I owned an 85' 318 and it was amazing.
This is my dream car. It is a Ultima GTR, a kit car that uses a Chevy V8 by default (I would move to a 3 or 4 rotor Wankel Rotary Engine). It produces around 400 bhp and ways less then a Mazda Miata.
So what do I drive every day while my dream car sits in my garage? A Honda Odyssey Touring. That's right, I drive a minivan.
...
Wait, maybe that wouldn't be such a good idea...
As I have said many times, I have the problem of having more things to do than free time in which do to them. There are a lot of things I could buy to entertain myself with, that I do not have time for. You can bet that I'd be in a similar situation if I won say, 100 DVDs, in a contest. I'd never watch them, and probably give most of them away. However, you won't see much stuff sitting around in my house unused. If I have something, like a book or a board game, that I never plan to use again, I try to get rid of it. On the same token, I don't go buying things that I don't have time to use. Instead, I save my money in hopes that I can use that savings to do something that will give me more free time to enjoy things than I currently have.
I mean, look at me. I could buy a 360 and an HDTV no sweat. I don't because every minute of time that I wish to devote to video gaming and big screen video entertainment is already accounted for. Buying more than I do would just give me stuff I don't use. If I suddenly won a Ferrari, I probably wouldn't keep it. Unless I somehow suddenly got enough free time to use it, it would just be a burden.
Why do people buy and/or keep things they don't ever use?
I completely disagree, it may be true that you can lose your focus when you’re learning, but once you get the hang of it, it's like second nature, you learn to listen and feel the engine.
They're so cute and this pic has my favorite color!
Anyway if I could have any car at all I would want to have something similar to Hitlers Mercedes only, ya know, without the whole nazi-deal. He was a horrible person be had great tastes in cars.
Actually if I could have anything as a means of transportation I would say without a second thought GaoGaiGar but that's entirely for different reasons.
Now, I agree that it takes your focus of the road, when you're learning to drive. My driving instructor taught me how to use the clutch and transmission, let me drive (of course) a lesson or two without real comment, though saying from time to time I shouldn't follow my hand to the stick. And then the lesson after that he said, after having looked at the gear stick for the first time that lesson, that he'd wanted to hit me if I would look at that gear stick again. Rest of the lesson went good, and at one point I looked at the stick again, and the driving instructor slammed the brakes. Voila, Nine never looks at the stick again unless he's standing still in front of a red light to make sure that the transmission is in first. Mother's car is crap and old, I stall from time to time in it when trying to get up a slope from standstill since it has no power and the clutch slip is too close. It's a cute Golf though.
@ Cramit, that first car is hot. BMW's are awesome, and the third car is ugly imho.
Obtainable Cars:
Ford GT (or just a Mustang GT)
Audi TT
Lotus Elise
Mini Cooper
Unobtainable Cars:
The DeLorean from Back to the Future (complete with Mr. Fusion and the hover enhancements)
The Batmobile
KIT
The Ecto-1
Seriously, though, I believe the benefits of MT are small enough that it remains a personal choice, and people shouldn't be judged based on their preference for either transmission. Not everyone drives cars for the same reason; most just want to get from point A to point B. Nowadays, a great many people are concerned about the environment. For now, the best they (think) they can do is a 40 mpg hybrid. So if that's your concern, skip MT and go for the gold.
Whereas, if you really want fun on the road, you're probably looking at cars for which AT is not an option.
So really, I don't see any situation where the choice of MT vs AT is more than a minor, personal distinction.
I test drove a lot of cars this past month while looking for what to buy. In the VW/Audi camp I drove almost everything in both manual and automatic and there wasn't a single car that I drove both in that didn't give me more control in the Manual. My A4 even has Electronic Stability Control and AWD plus it's a manual. I'm fairly sure there isn't much more I could do to the car save for road-condition-specific tires that would give me more control while on the road.
Anyone that looks at the stick when shifting is out of their mind. It'd be like looking at the break pedal when braking. You know where it is, settle down. Never said it was anything other than a personal decision. Most things with a car are. The profundity astounds!
Now, when I can afford a car that has either the DSG or the SMT then I'd probably choose that over my manual. ^_~
Not one of the new ones, you need to get an awesome old school one.
Also, of course my other dream car would be a DeLorean, do I need to tell you why?
As for efficiency, I put my mother's 4 speed transmission in the 4 at 50 km/h. That's about 30 mph I think. 31.blablabla mph. You don't have that amount of control over an automatic, which changes gears at specific rpm rates. And afaik will probably never will change into 4 at 30 mph unless it's semi automatic.
@ Scott, that new Ferrari looks just like an Enzo, with white parts and minor details changed.
DeLorean. And the list grows!