The times have changed for some of the younger generation's parents. However, my mother would throw away my stuff without my permission. I blame it for her being a crazy Filipino woman, but that's just me.
What I object to is that you think any of us would actually be with that kind of person.
I think Scott's point is that none of the women (or men) we know are like that
We are saying that people change as they age. You are saying that none of the young people you know are "like that." Do I need to point out the logical fallacy?
People grow. Women and men grow. Sometimes you grow in the same direction and sometimes you don't.
And trust me... when kids come along, things change radically. If you don't want kids, then you've taken about 90% of females out of the dating pool. Even Scott, at some point, is going to compromise to get some affection from the women folk. He might as well be a priest. What a waste one's youth! But eventually, somewhere, that little molecule of testosterone will hit the right part of his brain.
You'll stand in line for 5 hours to get a Wii, but you won't put up with any annoyances whatsoever to get a date? I don't get it.
Many factors influence your growth. I'm sure that gender has an impact on one's development.
What evidence do you have that they are different in this particular way, other than your anecdotal evidence? I also have anecdotal evidence that people are not that way. You're the people making the claim that women make these turn-arounds. Can you support that, or are you sexist?
I never claimed that women make turn-arounds. All I said that women and men have differences and that people grow as they age. Perhaps this is merely the result of their nurturing. Perhaps not. Nonetheless, there are differences.
Frankly, I find your attitude sexist. As the French say... viva la difference!
And I suppose you would have toldthis personthat there were no differences?
And yet another example.
You are getting way off track. We are not arguing that there aren't differences between the sexes. I think that is something that can be determine with just the naked eye. We are only talking about one specific difference. You claim that women are much more likely than men to give up their hobbies, turn on their spouses, etc. later in life after being married and having children. The way you old guys are phrasing your arguments even makes it seem as if you think all women are like that, and there is no alternative.
If this is not your claim, then state your specific claim. Then support that specific claim with evidence that is not anecdotal. In my life I have seen instances of the phenomenon you describe, but I have also seen many instances where it does not happen. From where I'm standing you've basically been spouting gender stereotypes as portrayed on old TV sitcoms. That just isn't going to fly.
If this is not your claim, then state your specific claim. Then support that specific claim with evidence that is not anecdotal. In my life I have seen instances of the phenomenon you describe, but I have also seen many instances where it does not happen. From where I'm standing you've basically been spouting gender stereotypes as portrayed on old TV sitcoms. That just isn't going to fly.
Yea, I think these old guys just never met a geeky girl apparently or maybe it's more like back in the day, a women who wanted to meet a "smart" guy would feign interest in something that the guy liked until she "caught" him (I.E. married, kids and house). Then she would tire of the farce and do her own thing. If this is the case, you guys are fools, there have always been super cool women out there. You just didn't look hard enough or fell for a trap. Go find some actually intelligent and/or geeky girls that are not just doing it for the chance of meeting the next Bill Gates or why don't you judge people not completely on their physical attributes and look at who they are as a person. I mean, I'm pretty sure that my gf is not one day going to suddenly give up Manga and Anime on me. Her collection is bigger then mine!
The newer generations (I.E. under 30 people) have a more even ratio of geek guys to geek girls. It isn't the one girl taking advantage of 15 socially awkward guys anymore. Those predator type girls (RWAG girls for the ex-RIT people) learned at some point there was a pool of easy to manipulate guys out there and took advantage of them, luckily this is becoming rarer as there are more girls in hobbies that used to be distinctly male dominated thus taking the power out of impostors and leading to more healthy relationships.
I think that came out correct, my thoughts on this are a bit fractured.
As Joe and Jason both pointed out earlier woman change after giving birth. They go from being a woman to being a mother. If they do not than they are heartless and will be a bad parent.
Part of this is hormonal. Men do not have this "problem" because they are not carrying a baby for 9 months and dealing with the hormonal changes affecting their body.
Think back to how you were when you were still a virgin. How did you look at girls then? What about when you were eight years old? Do you still look at them the same way?
I have an eight year old girl in my house and when I was eight I wanted to see into the secret life of eight year old girls. Now I can see into that "secret life" and I'd rather not!!!
Being a parent changes your focus from "What do I want" to "what does my family want."
People change over time. Women enter a "nesting" stage in life when their hormones kick in. Once they enter this stage they never go back to the old ways, it's biology. A woman's body WANTS to have kids. A man's body wants to have sex. It all works out in the end.
You guys are just like Ralphie in A Christmas Story. You so obviously know everything. Of course all the older people are fools and don't know nearly as much. How could they match your vast wealth of hard won wisdom and experience?
Well, remember what happened to Ralphie? Just what the old fools predicted. Sometimes the old fools turn out to be right.
Look, it is possible to marry a geek girl that won't try to change you and won't throw away all your stuff, keep in touch with your geek friends all your life, and never have a Yoko come along and break up the band. It's also possible to find an NFL linebacker who can engage you in a deep discussion of Kierkegaard. I suppose it's even possible to find a gangsta rapper that likes to sample tunes from Guys and Dolls. It's just not very likely.
Look, it is possible to marry a geek girl that won't try to change you and won't throw away all your stuff, keep in touch with your geek friends all your life, and never have a Yoko come along and break up the band. It's also possible to find an NFL linebacker who can engage you in a deep discussion of Kierkegaard. I suppose it's even possible to find a gangsta rapper that likes to sample tunes fromGuys and Dolls. It's just not very likely.
Then who are all those moms I see walking around the anime conventions buying manga for themselves?
Then who are all those moms I see walking around the anime conventions buying manga for themselves?
Obviously these mothers must have been into Football before and when they had kids they changed to Manga... So I guess we should be looking for banal women and hope that their change after childbirth will be to become interesting.
What I object to is that you think any of us would actually be with that kind of person.
I think Scott's point is that none of the women (or men) we know are like that
We are saying that people change as they age. You are saying that none of the young people you know are "like that." Do I need to point out the logical fallacy?
People grow. Womenandmen grow. Sometimes you grow in the same direction and sometimes you don't.
There are two ends to the geek spectrum. You might call them the Phase Geek end and the Terminal Geek end.
The Phase Geek is a person interested in geeky things in a mostly non-geeky way. They may have liked, say, comic books when they were kids, but now that they've grown up they don't read them anymore. They thought they were fun, but after a while they felt there was nothing more to learn from comics, and most of their friends had already moved on to other things anyhow.
The Terminal Geek is the 50-year old who still has every comic they've ever bought since they moved out of their parents' place, and spends hours on message boards jousting over the minutae of Superman or Spiderman, which they can do with authority, as they've read every issue connected with both, and have the main plotlines memorized. If their friends are no longer interested in comics, well, then they're no friends of theirs. Comics are important enough to the Terminal Geek that they will willingly face social stigma, or in extreme cases complete social leprosy to continue working over their comics. Not only comics, but really almost every aspect of their lives, from what they wear, to what they eat, to what they watch on TV. The Terminal Geek is what most people might call "someone stuck in the past". Why most people lose interest while the Geek's remains is anybody's guess - this is one of the fundamental mysteries of Geekdom.
(That's not to say that geeky hobbies are trapped in time, but most of the people who have been expanding the mediums haven't been Terminal Geeks - the expanders come from the awkward middle ground. Most Terminal Geeks hate change, and only put up with it in their given hobbies because the alternative of leaving it altogether is much much worse. That's why you'll see crotchety older geeks who gripe about how "X just isn't the same since that idiot Y took over", but they still dutifully spend their time and money on the output just the same. :P)
If you get someone from one end of the spectrum and match them with someone on the other end, eventually the difference in their rate of movement will catch up with them. If the match is pretty close, this might take quite some time, potentially leading to the sort of later-life scenarios our more bitter Geeknights listeners have described.
And trust me... when kids come along, things change radically. If you don't want kids, then you've taken about 90% of females out of the dating pool. Even Scott, at some point, is going to compromise to get some affection from the women folk. He might as well be a priest. What a waste one's youth! But eventually, somewhere, that little molecule of testosterone will hit the right part of his brain.
On this I'm gonna have to disagree. Through the miracle of the internet and sketchy craigslist ads, both epic porn and anonymous sex are available in levels perhaps never seen before in the history of man. Loneliness may remain a motivator, but horniness... not so much.
Perhaps the intelligent, geeky women out there have seen the ignorant stereotyping that they would be submitted to and have realized that you aren't worth their time. And just as men tend to seek out like-minded guys as friends, women do they same. We will talk shit about you to our friends when you have earned it, and then you will have screwed up multiple chances. That is how the game works.
The FRC had the advantage of the RIT Anime Club, which attracts some very bright people. The anime club opened the door for going to conventions and meeting others into anime, video games, webcomics, tech, etc. and provided a social avenue by which the FRC obtained its current form. Now, as far as I am aware, there have been some falling outs and people have left of their own volition, usually due to trust issues or guilt, but that again throws back to that core trust between group members. The Geekery known by the Front Row Crew is hardly just tech and anime, as assumed in the FNPL podcast. We have artists, anthropologists, kendo experts, fencing afficiandos, skiing and hiking enthusiasts. The list could continue on. If, by chance, some members of the group fell out of love with say, anime or D&D/Burning Wheel, they would still have some other base of similar interests which keep them attached to the group.
Methinks the old men forget the fact that RIT is basically a concentrator for intelligent, like-minded, driven people. I'm sorry you guys never met enough interesting and intelligent people to form a group, nay family, like this one. You can rationalize your own decisions all you want, but it won't change the reality of our lives. ^_~
Methinks the old men forget the fact that RIT is basically a concentrator for intelligent, like-minded, driven people. I'm sorry you guys never met enough interesting and intelligent people to form a group, nay family, like this one. You can rationalize your own decisions all you want, but it won't change the reality of our lives. ^_~
No, we think you forget that.
You are basing your assumptions on a very tiny portion of the population while we are talking about the population as a whole.
there have been some falling outs and people have left of their own volition, usually due to trust issues or guilt
If this has happened, why were Scrym so confident that it would never happen again?
My argument is much more simple than people are giving me credit for. I am only saying that people (and their priorities) change. Sometimes this will result in certain people leaving the group. I'm not focused on what sex they are, or what their reasons are. I'm just saying that people change over the years. To suggest otherwise is to deny their humanity.
We're not even counting the zillions of womens I have met who are total geeks about the Joss Whedon, Battlestar Galactica, Dr. Who, etc.
Then why don't you have a girlfriend?
I think Scott's kind of like Alfalfa from The Little Rascals. He'll tell us what's what when he's in the confines of the He-Man Woman Haters Club, but if a real woman ever showed him any interest, he'd do anything she wanted.
Methinks the old men forget the fact that RIT is basically a concentrator for intelligent, like-minded, driven people. I'm sorry you guys never met enough interesting and intelligent people to form a group, nay family, like this one. You can rationalize your own decisions all you want, but it won't change the reality of our lives. ^_~
We're not rationalizing anything. We're telling what we expect will happen to your little group based on our experience. Sure, maybe you won't fragment; but you probably will. The odds aren't in your favor.
Now let me say this with all due respect, keeping in mind that I like the podcast, adore the forum, and generally agree with most of what you say. We're happy you're doing so great. We're pleased that you had a good college experience. It's refreshing to hear your youthful enthusiasm. Unfortunately, some of us more humble types haven't done so well, and it hasn't always been the result of conscious decisions. For instance, some of us couldn't afford the glorious RIT. Saying that we couldn't share your experience because we were not admitted to the hallowed halls of RIT sounds a bit harsh, maybe even selfish and conceited.
There ARE other schools out there. RIT is not the only concentrator for interesting and intelligent people, we HAVE met plenty of interesting and intelligent people, and we HAVE formed groups with them. When we were in our twenties, we thought our groups would last forever too. We're telling you that those groups, for one reason or another, have always dissolved. We expect your group will as well for much the same reasons.
there have been some falling outs and people have left of their own volition, usually due to trust issues or guilt
If this has happened, why were Scrym so confident that it would never happen again?
Yeah. I thought that once you were in, you were in the holiest of the holies for life. It looks like we've been proven right already.
but if a real woman ever showed him any interest, he'd do anything she wanted.
That's a little harsh. It is entirely humorous, though, that Scott is arguing that there are tons of women out there that are compatible with him. On any other day, he's always saying how he's never met someone that he is entirely compatible with. Sorry Scott, but you can't have it both ways.
It's kind of like a Catholic Priest pretending to be a dating expert. Sorry Scott, but the forum elders have substantially more life experience when it comes to this subject matter.
And for the record, I have a wonderful wife who I adore. I can't say that enough. She really is an amazing person. That being said, we have some differences. But that's no problem. We allow each other to pursue our interests - even whey they aren't 100% compatible.
Yeah, I think it's funny thatthis was our entire argument.So it has and can happen. That's all we were saying!
Well, all I was adding about the womens is that they are a prime reason why groups dissolve. There's always a Yoko that wants to break up the band.
Perhaps the intelligent, geeky women out there have seen the ignorant stereotyping that they would be submitted to and have realized that you aren't worth their time.
My wife is an attorney. She's smarter than me. I'll bet money that she's smarter than you as well.
As for me not having a girlfriend, that has nothing to do with a lack of options. While I wouldn't mind having some female companionship, it honestly isn't a high priority for me. I don't try to meet, date, flirt, etc. because my time is all spent sleeping, eating, and geeking. I'm like a fish ignoring all the bait because I'm more interested in the bubbly treasure chest with the skeleton next to it. I won't be caught until I either get bored of the bubbles, or someone reaches in and grabs me. This is really a separate topic. Point is that I meet lots of single geeky awesome women, especially at conventions and such. Heck, there are a bunch on this very forum.
For the record I really like bubbly treasure chests and skeletons.
Yeah, I think it's funny thatthis was our entire argument.So it has and can happen. That's all we were saying!
Those people are people who didn't make it. As I said in the podcast, which I just listened to, the crew is like a coral. New polyps are latching on all the time, but only some of them stay and turn into rock hard coral, others get washed away. To this date, the actual underlying coral has no damage, and I don't foresee there being any damage either. There are also new polyps all the time, there are people coming to our New Year's party who I've only met maybe once, or even zero times. Some will wash away, others may cement themselves. The cement is not quick drying, but it is a permanent seal.
Fish and coral, what is up with my underwater analogies?
As for me not having a girlfriend, that has nothing to do with a lack of options. While I wouldn't mind having some female companionship, it honestly isn't a high priority for me. I don't try to meet, date, flirt, etc. because my time is all spent sleeping, eating, and geeking.
Yeah, that's why I didn't pick up that hundred dollar bill I saw in the street on my way in to work this morning. I just couldn't be bothered.
Comments
Also, my mom read Fantastic Four, among other comics. The family still has piles of them.
And where's Emily? Or any other woman from the FRC? This is becoming an interesting topic, and I'd like to hear/read her/their thoughts. Eh, yeah, it's 2007. Almost 2008. Time flies, it's scary.
Do I need to point out the logical fallacy?
People grow. Women and men grow. Sometimes you grow in the same direction and sometimes you don't.
And trust me... when kids come along, things change radically. If you don't want kids, then you've taken about 90% of females out of the dating pool. Even Scott, at some point, is going to compromise to get some affection from the women folk. He might as well be a priest. What a waste one's youth! But eventually, somewhere, that little molecule of testosterone will hit the right part of his brain.
You'll stand in line for 5 hours to get a Wii, but you won't put up with any annoyances whatsoever to get a date? I don't get it.
Gender influences oneself.
Surely you're not debating this?
Many factors influence your growth. I'm sure that gender has an impact on one's development.
And I suppose you would have told this person that there were no differences?
And yet another example.
Here is a good discussion.
And another study.
Even things we don't associate with gender may have gender underpinnings.
I never claimed that women make turn-arounds. All I said that women and men have differences and that people grow as they age. Perhaps this is merely the result of their nurturing. Perhaps not. Nonetheless, there are differences.
Frankly, I find your attitude sexist. As the French say... viva la difference!
Most importantly, science suggests that our emotional wiring is different.
If this is not your claim, then state your specific claim. Then support that specific claim with evidence that is not anecdotal. In my life I have seen instances of the phenomenon you describe, but I have also seen many instances where it does not happen. From where I'm standing you've basically been spouting gender stereotypes as portrayed on old TV sitcoms. That just isn't going to fly.
The newer generations (I.E. under 30 people) have a more even ratio of geek guys to geek girls. It isn't the one girl taking advantage of 15 socially awkward guys anymore. Those predator type girls (RWAG girls for the ex-RIT people) learned at some point there was a pool of easy to manipulate guys out there and took advantage of them, luckily this is becoming rarer as there are more girls in hobbies that used to be distinctly male dominated thus taking the power out of impostors and leading to more healthy relationships.
I think that came out correct, my thoughts on this are a bit fractured.
Part of this is hormonal. Men do not have this "problem" because they are not carrying a baby for 9 months and dealing with the hormonal changes affecting their body.
Think back to how you were when you were still a virgin. How did you look at girls then? What about when you were eight years old? Do you still look at them the same way?
I have an eight year old girl in my house and when I was eight I wanted to see into the secret life of eight year old girls. Now I can see into that "secret life" and I'd rather not!!!
Being a parent changes your focus from "What do I want" to "what does my family want."
People change over time. Women enter a "nesting" stage in life when their hormones kick in. Once they enter this stage they never go back to the old ways, it's biology. A woman's body WANTS to have kids. A man's body wants to have sex. It all works out in the end.
Well, remember what happened to Ralphie? Just what the old fools predicted. Sometimes the old fools turn out to be right.
Look, it is possible to marry a geek girl that won't try to change you and won't throw away all your stuff, keep in touch with your geek friends all your life, and never have a Yoko come along and break up the band. It's also possible to find an NFL linebacker who can engage you in a deep discussion of Kierkegaard. I suppose it's even possible to find a gangsta rapper that likes to sample tunes from Guys and Dolls. It's just not very likely.
The Phase Geek is a person interested in geeky things in a mostly non-geeky way. They may have liked, say, comic books when they were kids, but now that they've grown up they don't read them anymore. They thought they were fun, but after a while they felt there was nothing more to learn from comics, and most of their friends had already moved on to other things anyhow.
The Terminal Geek is the 50-year old who still has every comic they've ever bought since they moved out of their parents' place, and spends hours on message boards jousting over the minutae of Superman or Spiderman, which they can do with authority, as they've read every issue connected with both, and have the main plotlines memorized. If their friends are no longer interested in comics, well, then they're no friends of theirs. Comics are important enough to the Terminal Geek that they will willingly face social stigma, or in extreme cases complete social leprosy to continue working over their comics. Not only comics, but really almost every aspect of their lives, from what they wear, to what they eat, to what they watch on TV. The Terminal Geek is what most people might call "someone stuck in the past". Why most people lose interest while the Geek's remains is anybody's guess - this is one of the fundamental mysteries of Geekdom.
(That's not to say that geeky hobbies are trapped in time, but most of the people who have been expanding the mediums haven't been Terminal Geeks - the expanders come from the awkward middle ground. Most Terminal Geeks hate change, and only put up with it in their given hobbies because the alternative of leaving it altogether is much much worse. That's why you'll see crotchety older geeks who gripe about how "X just isn't the same since that idiot Y took over", but they still dutifully spend their time and money on the output just the same. :P)
If you get someone from one end of the spectrum and match them with someone on the other end, eventually the difference in their rate of movement will catch up with them. If the match is pretty close, this might take quite some time, potentially leading to the sort of later-life scenarios our more bitter Geeknights listeners have described.
The FRC had the advantage of the RIT Anime Club, which attracts some very bright people. The anime club opened the door for going to conventions and meeting others into anime, video games, webcomics, tech, etc. and provided a social avenue by which the FRC obtained its current form. Now, as far as I am aware, there have been some falling outs and people have left of their own volition, usually due to trust issues or guilt, but that again throws back to that core trust between group members. The Geekery known by the Front Row Crew is hardly just tech and anime, as assumed in the FNPL podcast. We have artists, anthropologists, kendo experts, fencing afficiandos, skiing and hiking enthusiasts. The list could continue on. If, by chance, some members of the group fell out of love with say, anime or D&D/Burning Wheel, they would still have some other base of similar interests which keep them attached to the group.
You are basing your assumptions on a very tiny portion of the population while we are talking about the population as a whole.
My argument is much more simple than people are giving me credit for. I am only saying that people (and their priorities) change. Sometimes this will result in certain people leaving the group. I'm not focused on what sex they are, or what their reasons are. I'm just saying that people change over the years. To suggest otherwise is to deny their humanity.
I think Scott's kind of like Alfalfa from The Little Rascals. He'll tell us what's what when he's in the confines of the He-Man Woman Haters Club, but if a real woman ever showed him any interest, he'd do anything she wanted. We're not rationalizing anything. We're telling what we expect will happen to your little group based on our experience. Sure, maybe you won't fragment; but you probably will. The odds aren't in your favor.
Now let me say this with all due respect, keeping in mind that I like the podcast, adore the forum, and generally agree with most of what you say. We're happy you're doing so great. We're pleased that you had a good college experience. It's refreshing to hear your youthful enthusiasm. Unfortunately, some of us more humble types haven't done so well, and it hasn't always been the result of conscious decisions. For instance, some of us couldn't afford the glorious RIT. Saying that we couldn't share your experience because we were not admitted to the hallowed halls of RIT sounds a bit harsh, maybe even selfish and conceited.
There ARE other schools out there. RIT is not the only concentrator for interesting and intelligent people, we HAVE met plenty of interesting and intelligent people, and we HAVE formed groups with them. When we were in our twenties, we thought our groups would last forever too. We're telling you that those groups, for one reason or another, have always dissolved. We expect your group will as well for much the same reasons. Yeah. I thought that once you were in, you were in the holiest of the holies for life. It looks like we've been proven right already.
It's kind of like a Catholic Priest pretending to be a dating expert. Sorry Scott, but the forum elders have substantially more life experience when it comes to this subject matter.
And for the record, I have a wonderful wife who I adore. I can't say that enough. She really is an amazing person. That being said, we have some differences. But that's no problem. We allow each other to pursue our interests - even whey they aren't 100% compatible.
For the record I really like bubbly treasure chests and skeletons. Those people are people who didn't make it. As I said in the podcast, which I just listened to, the crew is like a coral. New polyps are latching on all the time, but only some of them stay and turn into rock hard coral, others get washed away. To this date, the actual underlying coral has no damage, and I don't foresee there being any damage either. There are also new polyps all the time, there are people coming to our New Year's party who I've only met maybe once, or even zero times. Some will wash away, others may cement themselves. The cement is not quick drying, but it is a permanent seal.
Fish and coral, what is up with my underwater analogies?