Listen you little whippersnappers, when *I* was your age, I had to walk 5 miles to post a snide, condescending comment! In the snow! Uphill! Both ways!
Aren't you like...20 and in University or something, Nine?
Yes, and I have to pay for my own rent, food, gas, electricity, insurance and tuition (and minor miscellaneous expenses here and there). I then link a humorous post about the looming financial depression The first response to that is of a spoiled teen who hasn't got the faintest clue about the depression, let alone will notice a thing of it, and who doesn't grasp the humour in the linked post. So what do I do to remedy this, I press the button.
Listen you little whippersnappers, when *I* was your age, I had to walk 5 miles to post a snide, condescending comment! In the snow! Uphill! Both ways!
You were happy in those days, and when you got home your father would dot dot dot.
Yes, and I have to pay for my own rent, food, gas, electricity, insurance and tuition (and minor miscellaneous expenses here and there). I then link a humorous post about the looming financial depression The first response to that is of a spoiled teen who hasn't got the faintest clue about the depression, let alone will notice a thing of it, and who doesn't grasp the humour in the linked post. So what do I do to remedy this, I press the button.
"Oh, oh! Look at me, I do what normal people do! Guys? Look at me, I'm important! Right?"
Listen you little whippersnappers, when *I* was your age, I had to walk 5 miles to post a snide, condescending comment! In the snow! Uphill! Both ways!
You were happy in those days, and when you got home your father would dot dot dot.
"You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt."
"You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt."
"Oh, oh! Look at me, I do what normal people do! Guys? Look at me, I'm important! Right?"
Pathetic extrapolation there. I'm was pointing out that I have expenses, to pre-emptively shush any nay-sayers who could whine at me for berating someone about having no expenses.
"You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt."
That's the one!
Wow your dad had enough money to own a belt?
Sometimes one only has to rudely point when asked to explain why someone is awesome.
Ah well, I should've expected spoiled teens without expenses to not understand these things. .
Who said anything about me being mean because of bills? Besides, I wasn't even being mean.
You must have a different perception of being mean compared to a few others here. I thought it was pretty mean and wrong for you to call Sail those things, when you really don't know much about him.
Besides you saying you work and pay bills at the age of 20? Good for you! Isn't Sail still in high school and does seem to hold a job in which he pays for some of his own things, as he has stated in other threads?
Yeah, I'm seventeen and a sailing instructor for a youth foundation. During the summers I'm working 8am to 5pm weekdays. There aren't many kids my age that participate in skilled labor, let alone work full shifts. As I've said before, pretty much anything "extra" that I have was purchased with money I earned.
Most people are financially independant by the time they're 22. That's good. You are financially independant at age 20. That's awesome. YoshoKatana is financially independant at age 18. That's insanely awesome. In a few short years I will be financially independant too, and it will be awesome. But off topic name-calling is not awesome and it really exposes the content of your character. You may be mature in your finances, but you are clearly not mature in your behavior.
Mean? Wrong? Things?! I called him one thing, and it was the same thing I called him before with explanation as to why I call him that. It's not my problem that the majority of this forum doesn't get it, but for the love of god, if you don't understand it, don't go calling me mean or wrong and making a planet-sized elephant out of a mosquito. Heck, those who DO understand, other than me, have a great reason to be laughing their butts off.
Here, let me write out something that actually is mean: I thought I was posting on the Front Row Crew Forums. I thought its users were capable of thinking at a respectable level. Yet I get flack for nothing! All because you folks appear to completely fail to understand a single point being made. I feel pressured by you guys to make a thread with as title: "THINKING 101." Do you want me to do that for real? Do you want me to tell you the one rule about thinking? Do you really need to be told to keep using your head? For fucks sake, even my grandfather, who's had Alzheimer's Disease for at least 5 years now, is capable of more thought that what you lot appear to have in total on some days. Do you all want to wear the steve-cap for a day? Be my guest, but shut the fuck up if you do.
And yes, Sail is still in high school from what he told us. That's the entire point! Really Ro, really? Who are you and what have you done to the real internet Ro persona?
[EDIT: Let's just make this put text here instead of also repeating that image]
Yeah, it's all fun and games until you're the one being made fun off, ain't that right Jason? Also, that's not my brand. Red isn't my colour, needs to be black. Also, it's not rippedribbed enough.
Oh my god, will you guys quit bitching at each other already? So somebody made a comment that was snide. So what? When someone responds to one of my posts with something like "Oh God, if only the conservatives would shut up," I ignore it and continue to talk to the people who posted productive, intelligent questions and discussion. It becomes clear that the person who made that comment is an idiot without everyone taking the time to point it out and bitch about it. When half the posts are taken over with people bitching back and forth about who is mean and who has the right to talk about the depression, it gets in the way of the actual conversation about the topic.
Everybody has the right to talk about the depression and its effects, no matter how much they are going to be directly affected. Hey guys, I haven't lost my job yet. I'm making decent money selling dice jewelry and knitwear on the internet. I haven't defaulted on any of my debt, and it doesn't look like I'm going to lose my job anytime soon. However, I still make a relatively low amount of money and the rising prices and credit crunch do impact me, even if they haven't driven me into poverty.
Speaking of internet sales, people are actually buying MORE handmade and small business stuff (at least on Etsy.com) since the recession started. I'm interested to see if this trend picks up. It would be cool to see people move away from buying mass-produced imports and vote for domestic production with their dollars.
Meep. Friends, Romans, Countrymen: we're all chums here. Nine: Sail may not have as many expenses as you, but he still works hard. Please don't be so hard on him. Sail, keep up the hard work, and you'll do well. Other forumites, Nine did only say one thing mean...until his last post. Can we handle this as gentlemen (/ladies)?
Also, Nuri, I agree wholeheartedly. Steve, surprisingly we agree... This is a strange sensation.
I was reading a story today about GMAC possibly going out of business. Then I had an idea. Most likely it's a crazy idea that won't work. I'll have to ask the economist on FNPL, to confirm that. In the meantime, here's my crazy idea.
Let's say you owe someone $100 and they die. You now owe their inheritors the $100. But lets say someone has no inheritors, and no estate. Who do you owe? Do you owe anyone? Even if you do theoretically still owe someone that money, are you ever realistically going to pay it back? Does any economic harm come from you not paying it back? For all practical purposes, what used to be a loan becomes a gift, and no harm is done.
So let's say GMAC goes under. Why not just let everyone with a GMAC loan off the hook? Just give all the people their houses for free. Who really loses here? GMAC and their employees lose, but they're going to lose anyway. I guess the only other losers are the people GMAC owes money to, but again, they are screwed anyway.
If we let all these people with loans off the hook, I actually think it would be a huge boost to the economy. Suddenly you have all these people who completely own their houses. What will they do with that huge boost in income? Well maybe they'll be smart and start some savings, but you can bet Christmas this year will be un-canceled. You're also going to see all these people who have a free house will have enough buying power to go after another house. That additional demand for houses could revive the market.
I'm almost positive I'm completely stupid, and there's an obvious economic catastrophe that will result if we do this. But to my macro-economically ignorant self it seems like a good idea. If the government giving everyone a few hundred dollars off their taxes is supposed to boost the economy, I don't see why giving everyone their houses for free wouldn't be so much better than that.
Let's say you owe someone $100 and they die. You now owe their inheritors the $100. But lets say someone has no inheritors, and no estate.
It's a little hard to catch your meaning. The estate is everything the decedent owned or is owed less what the decedent owed. So, if the decendent was owed $100.00, he has an estate. The administrator or the executor will have to try to collect that $100.00, and that just becomes a proof problem. If there is no one to take the $100.00 by testate succession, it would escheat to the state (the precise mechanics depend on the laws of your state).
Now, when you propose that people could be forgiven loans if a company "goes under", I assume you're talking about bankruptcy. In that case, those loans become recoverable by the bankrupt company's creditors.
Scott, the obvious flaw in that plan is people are assholes. A company that actually has good loans could be forced out of business by people who decide they don't give a damn about their credit score if they can get a free house. They stop paying their mortgages and the company goes under...now they have free houses. Sure, it may not ACTUALLY work, but enough people will get that idea that it will hurt the company. Also, all of the people who didn't get let off the hook will be OUTRAGED when those people do.
You mentioned the people that GMAC owes money to. Perhaps you don't realize the enormity of their credit line. If even half of the money can be regained from the loans, that will be much better for the creditors than none at all. They aren't just going to let go of any income they might be able to salvage, and we don't really have the right to demand that they do.
Scott -- other investors would simply buy the mortgages at low, low prices for big, big profit. Mortgage ownership is transferable. Six different banks/LLCs have purchased my mortgage in the past six years.
You mentioned the people that GMAC owes money to. Perhaps you don't realize the enormity of their credit line. If even half of the money can be regained from the loans, that will be much better for the creditors than none at all. They aren't just going to let go of any income they might be able to salvage, and we don't really have the right to demand that they do.
If GMAC is a company that does nothing but lend out money, and they themselves are borrowing money to lend out, there is an obvious problem. It's as obvious as a friend with a gambling problem who is always asking to borrow money to pay back other people they owe. Yes, people GMAC borrowed from would be screwed. But in a way, aren't they just like the poor sap who lends money to a gambling addict? Did they really expect to see that money again? Should we really feel bad for them if they don't?
Scott -- other investors would simply buy the mortgages at low, low prices for big, big profit. Mortgage ownership is transferable. Six different banks/LLCs have purchased my mortgage in the past six years.
So couldn't someone buy the mortgages at low low prices, give everyone a break, and still profit? You wouldn't have to give everyone their house for free, just give it to them cheap. If you have $100,000 left on your mortgage, but someone sells me the mortgage for $50k, I could just cut you a break and pretend there is only $60k left. I still profit, so no problems there. Also, the rising tide of all those people with lower payments may just lift my boat higher than if I made everyone pay in full.
Also, I read a story awhile back about a guy who also had his mortgage change hands many times. It turned out that in all that bank shuffling the actual paperwork on the bank side was not in order. No bank could actually prove they owned the mortgage, and he got the rest of his house free. Apparently a lot of mortgage paperwork is screwed up and/or lost, but people rarely do anything about it. I think it is definitely worth your time to see if you can get the rest of your house for nothing.
If GMAC is a company that does nothing but lend out money, and they themselves are borrowing money to lend out, there is an obvious problem. It's as obvious as a friend with a gambling problem who is always asking to borrow money to pay back other people they owe.
Scott, this is the entire system!
The size of the world economy is about 30 to 40 trillion dollars, that is the sum of all assets in the world. Current bailout packages in the US are at something like $4.6 trillion (after a quick google). If the entire system starts going down, a bailout of all the troubled institutions could run to a figure GREATER than the entire world economy.
The world financial system is an inverted pyramid balanced on the tip, hundreds of trillions in credit secured with very small assets. I don't have a handy solution, but this is the reality for everyone, not just this one bank.
If GMAC is a company that does nothing but lend out money, and they themselves are borrowing money to lend out, there is an obvious problem. It's as obvious as a friend with a gambling problem who is always asking to borrow money to pay back other people they owe. Yes, people GMAC borrowed from would be screwed. But in a way, aren't they just like the poor sap who lends money to a gambling addict? Did they really expect to see that money again? Should we really feel bad for them if they don't?
By that reasoning, no one should ever invest in something they aren't directly involved in. When you buy stock in a company, you are saying, "hey dudes, here is some money! I think you will do productive things with it that will in turn give me more money back. Please don't let me down." What do you think a loan is? It's exactly that. "Here is some money; it looks like you will be able to pay this back and give us even more in the process through interest. Please don't let us down." That is exactly the same thing as we are seeing here, except that we are seeing the end product of failure because people mismanaged the money they were given.
The creditors do not micromanage the workings of the companies they give credit to, so when GMAC does something stupid like lend money to people who can't pay it back, it is not brought to the creditor's attention until it has already failed. It is well known that the more diverse your sources of income, the more likely you are to survive market shift or decline. The creditors probably do not specialize in the same market as GMAC, so it is more efficient to diversify their income by giving GMAC the money and letting them deal with the specialization. Again, it turned out to be a poor choice of market, but they didn't know that until it had already failed.
When a company fails, the investors still try to recoup some of the lost money so they lose less. By saying the creditors shouldn't have loaned GMAC money, you are basically saying that no one should invest in anything because they might get screwed. The creditors didn't know the company handled the business badly until it had already failed. They sure seemed lucrative in the past! At that point, you can't really retract your loan. You have to do whatever you can to help get most of your money back.
You could come back and say that the creditors should have paid more attention to the inner-workings of GMAC, but seriously...if they were going to spend a huge amount of time auditing and examining GMAC's procedures, they could have afforded to just do the work themselves. Sometimes you get screwed when you contract work out, but that doesn't mean you should never do it.
Things just got very interesting. The bill was killed and won't be open for another vote until next year.
Looks like we're finally going to make companies responsible for their decisions. What a concept. Following the now-almost-certain bankruptcy of Chrysler and GM, we are finally going to see the restructuring that the auto industry needs.
Comments
>:o -(Stop Bitching!)
Besides you saying you work and pay bills at the age of 20? Good for you! Isn't Sail still in high school and does seem to hold a job in which he pays for some of his own things, as he has stated in other threads?
Most people are financially independant by the time they're 22. That's good. You are financially independant at age 20. That's awesome. YoshoKatana is financially independant at age 18. That's insanely awesome. In a few short years I will be financially independant too, and it will be awesome. But off topic name-calling is not awesome and it really exposes the content of your character. You may be mature in your finances, but you are clearly not mature in your behavior.
All this, coming from a seventeen-year-old.
Here, let me write out something that actually is mean: I thought I was posting on the Front Row Crew Forums. I thought its users were capable of thinking at a respectable level. Yet I get flack for nothing! All because you folks appear to completely fail to understand a single point being made. I feel pressured by you guys to make a thread with as title: "THINKING 101." Do you want me to do that for real? Do you want me to tell you the one rule about thinking? Do you really need to be told to keep using your head? For fucks sake, even my grandfather, who's had Alzheimer's Disease for at least 5 years now, is capable of more thought that what you lot appear to have in total on some days. Do you all want to wear the steve-cap for a day? Be my guest, but shut the fuck up if you do.
And yes, Sail is still in high school from what he told us. That's the entire point! Really Ro, really? Who are you and what have you done to the real internet Ro persona?
rippedribbed enough.@Scott, that's a freaking hilarious picture.
Everybody has the right to talk about the depression and its effects, no matter how much they are going to be directly affected. Hey guys, I haven't lost my job yet. I'm making decent money selling dice jewelry and knitwear on the internet. I haven't defaulted on any of my debt, and it doesn't look like I'm going to lose my job anytime soon. However, I still make a relatively low amount of money and the rising prices and credit crunch do impact me, even if they haven't driven me into poverty.
Speaking of internet sales, people are actually buying MORE handmade and small business stuff (at least on Etsy.com) since the recession started. I'm interested to see if this trend picks up. It would be cool to see people move away from buying mass-produced imports and vote for domestic production with their dollars.
Also, Nuri, I agree wholeheartedly. Steve, surprisingly we agree... This is a strange sensation.
Let's say you owe someone $100 and they die. You now owe their inheritors the $100. But lets say someone has no inheritors, and no estate. Who do you owe? Do you owe anyone? Even if you do theoretically still owe someone that money, are you ever realistically going to pay it back? Does any economic harm come from you not paying it back? For all practical purposes, what used to be a loan becomes a gift, and no harm is done.
So let's say GMAC goes under. Why not just let everyone with a GMAC loan off the hook? Just give all the people their houses for free. Who really loses here? GMAC and their employees lose, but they're going to lose anyway. I guess the only other losers are the people GMAC owes money to, but again, they are screwed anyway.
If we let all these people with loans off the hook, I actually think it would be a huge boost to the economy. Suddenly you have all these people who completely own their houses. What will they do with that huge boost in income? Well maybe they'll be smart and start some savings, but you can bet Christmas this year will be un-canceled. You're also going to see all these people who have a free house will have enough buying power to go after another house. That additional demand for houses could revive the market.
I'm almost positive I'm completely stupid, and there's an obvious economic catastrophe that will result if we do this. But to my macro-economically ignorant self it seems like a good idea. If the government giving everyone a few hundred dollars off their taxes is supposed to boost the economy, I don't see why giving everyone their houses for free wouldn't be so much better than that.
Now, when you propose that people could be forgiven loans if a company "goes under", I assume you're talking about bankruptcy. In that case, those loans become recoverable by the bankrupt company's creditors.
You mentioned the people that GMAC owes money to. Perhaps you don't realize the enormity of their credit line. If even half of the money can be regained from the loans, that will be much better for the creditors than none at all. They aren't just going to let go of any income they might be able to salvage, and we don't really have the right to demand that they do.
Also, I read a story awhile back about a guy who also had his mortgage change hands many times. It turned out that in all that bank shuffling the actual paperwork on the bank side was not in order. No bank could actually prove they owned the mortgage, and he got the rest of his house free. Apparently a lot of mortgage paperwork is screwed up and/or lost, but people rarely do anything about it. I think it is definitely worth your time to see if you can get the rest of your house for nothing.
The size of the world economy is about 30 to 40 trillion dollars, that is the sum of all assets in the world. Current bailout packages in the US are at something like $4.6 trillion (after a quick google). If the entire system starts going down, a bailout of all the troubled institutions could run to a figure GREATER than the entire world economy.
The world financial system is an inverted pyramid balanced on the tip, hundreds of trillions in credit secured with very small assets. I don't have a handy solution, but this is the reality for everyone, not just this one bank.
The creditors do not micromanage the workings of the companies they give credit to, so when GMAC does something stupid like lend money to people who can't pay it back, it is not brought to the creditor's attention until it has already failed. It is well known that the more diverse your sources of income, the more likely you are to survive market shift or decline. The creditors probably do not specialize in the same market as GMAC, so it is more efficient to diversify their income by giving GMAC the money and letting them deal with the specialization. Again, it turned out to be a poor choice of market, but they didn't know that until it had already failed.
When a company fails, the investors still try to recoup some of the lost money so they lose less. By saying the creditors shouldn't have loaned GMAC money, you are basically saying that no one should invest in anything because they might get screwed. The creditors didn't know the company handled the business badly until it had already failed. They sure seemed lucrative in the past! At that point, you can't really retract your loan. You have to do whatever you can to help get most of your money back.
You could come back and say that the creditors should have paid more attention to the inner-workings of GMAC, but seriously...if they were going to spend a huge amount of time auditing and examining GMAC's procedures, they could have afforded to just do the work themselves. Sometimes you get screwed when you contract work out, but that doesn't mean you should never do it.