I understand your issues with the system, as they make perfect sense, and I understand how it can be bad. But I also think that done correctly it could very well be a great addition to the game. Add on the fact that it gives the player a more global thing to work towards, rather then just playing each map and each round.
I have a feeling that this is just one of those things where people will just have to agree to disagree on... or at least be an interesting potential conversation at Katsucon.
So I just found out that Team Fortress 2 has introduced an in-game store where you use real money to buy fake hats (for $18) that give you advantages in the game. So this presents a situation where people who pay money (or waste a huge amount of time doing what is tantamount to grinding in order to find a randomly-dropped hat) will always be winning, and if you want to succeed in the game you'll have to do it as well. It's the sort of thing you'd normally see in free-to-play MMORPGs-- but TF2 isn't free-to-play.
Yeah, I don't think I'm ever going to play TF2 now.
To be fair, the items can also be gotten through time. It's either you invest time or money to get better. Skill does have very little to do with it, though, I will agree.
My roommate is ecstatic, but that's probably because everyone else he plays against is better at shooters than he is.
I'm sad. I liked TF2 (ESPECIALLY the airblast mechanic, one of the most fun mechanics I've seen), but this kinda puts a damper on the game for me. If I'm playing against somebody, I want to know I'm on even footing. Now, people can just pay money and suddenly they have better stats and weapons than I do. I guess I'll still be able to play with friends, seeing as nobody I know would pay money for a virtual item (that I play games with. Some people I know would pay for an extra sheep or something in Farmquest, or whatever that game was.).
I don't see how this really changes anything in regards to TF2, it's really no different from the updates they've done before except now if you want to spend money instead of time you can. There are items that can only be bought with money, but they have no gameplay effects, they are purely aesthetic. And it's community made stuff, with the person that made it getting a percentage of the money.
[Edit] Although, Gunbound requires a lot more skill than TF2. Even if you're disadvantaged equipment-wise, you can still hold your own if you're good enough. I don't know if that's changed since the last time I played it, though.
Luckily, the Portal division was out to lunch at the time and they'll still be releasing their sequel this Winter (assuming we don't make any more Gabe Newell fat jokes).
Team Fortress 2 had such potential when it first was released. It was stateless and a joy to behold with the novel artistic styling. TF2 for me is this decades Tribes. But rather than listening to the community, they are appealing to the Xbox generation of teabaggers and those that quest for loot. If loot is your thing, then I tend to liken your gaming to that of 'building a model rail road'. I encourage you to pursue your interest, but would prefer that you sate your loot-lust in a program that is dedicated to that community ala WoW/EVE/etc.
One of the features that makes L4D, NS, Half Life Deathmatch still playable is their stateless nature. Gravity Gun sink lobbing matches are a novel server addition, but the moment that "UberFapper187" is given the "Super Gravity Gun" with +5 to bullshit & -10 to 'usually taken for granted skillset' the symmetry falls apart. We are no longer playing with the same rules.
I would argue that modern playgrounds (sporting events, video games, F1, etc) benefit from symmetry and an equal starting position so as the competition is provided by opposing players skills, rather than random drops of "UberFappers-soulbound-LoLC4t-ROFLkannon".
Feel free to bring your F1 car to the go-kart circuit, you will earn a golf clap for the novelty, but the go-kart enthusiasts will think you are a douche after the first few laps.
Monday Night Combat has completely replaced TF2 in my gaming repertoire. It has a lot of the spirit of TF without being the same game. Are there achievements and badges you can earn? Yes. Do they make you better or give you a significant edge? No. They're doo-dads you get for doing stuff. As it should be.
While stateless is better then stateful (is that the right word?) I don't think not being stateless has ruined TF2, because the new weapons are not substitutes for the original weapons. It's not like an RPG where the gear gets better, these weapons are balanced with the others such that a new player is on an equal footing with the other players, they just don't have as many options available to them.
Which is all these new weapons add, options. They open up new ways, and new strategies for for to play a given class, but whether one way or strategy is better then another is purely situational. And in these cases its often better to change classes then to change weapons.
) I don't think not being stateless has ruined TF2, because the new weapons are not substitutes for the original weapons. It's not like an RPG where the gear gets better, these weapons are balanced with the others such that a new player is on an equal footing with the other players, they just don't have as many options available to them.
Why do we have to keep repeating this over and over again? It's like no one ever reads what we write. This same bullshit argument has been made by at least ten of you at some point.
HAVING FEWER OPTIONS IS PATENTLY A DISADVANTAGE, EVEN IF THESE OPTIONS ARE THEMSELVES NOT FUNDAMENTALLY SUPERIOR STRATEGICALLY. "Equal but different" in an asymmetric game is SUBSTANTIALLY differentiated from "Equal but different with meta dependencies." It very specifically breaks some of the fundamental assumptions of the game, and mathematically disrupts the balance of strategy. To claim otherwise is to profess a profound misunderstanding of game theory.
They've essentially updated the strategy chart of TF2 to include real-world factors other than the skill that was originally being tested. What was once a test of (low-level) fps skills and paper/rock/scissors teamwork is now additionally a test of who has spent more money or time (time alone, not time gaining a tested skill). The game is different on a deep and demonstrable level.
I'm not typing this again. You're so wrong it hurts.
I'm not typing this again. You're so wrong it hurts.
Haha, I wasn't the one who had to type it this time.
Actually, I came up with an example that will maybe get this across to people.
Let's say you're playing Starcraft. It's Terran vs. Terran. However, one of the teams has unlocked a new unit either with money, or by getting achievements in previous games. That unit is the trooper. It's the same as a marine in all ways, except it's faster and does a little less damage. It's "equal but different" to the marine. It's still a fair fight that one team has this unit and the other does not, right? Obviously NOT.
Indeed. It's not a fair game unless the extra option is completely dominated by the standard ones (i.e. useless).
Even then, a completely useless, or even harmful, extra option gives an advantage to the other team that does not have this option as they have less chance of wasting resources on it.
I've always liked the idea of TF2 more than the game itself, mostly for the characters (Saxon Hale rocks my socks). If Valve wanted too, they could fix the whole item problem by having there be a no item-bonus server setting just like Gunbound does.
Comments
I have a feeling that this is just one of those things where people will just have to agree to disagree on... or at least be an interesting potential conversation at Katsucon.
Yeah, I don't think I'm ever going to play TF2 now.
My roommate is ecstatic, but that's probably because everyone else he plays against is better at shooters than he is.
One of the features that makes L4D, NS, Half Life Deathmatch still playable is their stateless nature. Gravity Gun sink lobbing matches are a novel server addition, but the moment that "UberFapper187" is given the "Super Gravity Gun" with +5 to bullshit & -10 to 'usually taken for granted skillset' the symmetry falls apart. We are no longer playing with the same rules.
I would argue that modern playgrounds (sporting events, video games, F1, etc) benefit from symmetry and an equal starting position so as the competition is provided by opposing players skills, rather than random drops of "UberFappers-soulbound-LoLC4t-ROFLkannon".
Feel free to bring your F1 car to the go-kart circuit, you will earn a golf clap for the novelty, but the go-kart enthusiasts will think you are a douche after the first few laps.
Which is all these new weapons add, options. They open up new ways, and new strategies for for to play a given class, but whether one way or strategy is better then another is purely situational. And in these cases its often better to change classes then to change weapons.
HAVING FEWER OPTIONS IS PATENTLY A DISADVANTAGE, EVEN IF THESE OPTIONS ARE THEMSELVES NOT FUNDAMENTALLY SUPERIOR STRATEGICALLY. "Equal but different" in an asymmetric game is SUBSTANTIALLY differentiated from "Equal but different with meta dependencies." It very specifically breaks some of the fundamental assumptions of the game, and mathematically disrupts the balance of strategy. To claim otherwise is to profess a profound misunderstanding of game theory.
They've essentially updated the strategy chart of TF2 to include real-world factors other than the skill that was originally being tested. What was once a test of (low-level) fps skills and paper/rock/scissors teamwork is now additionally a test of who has spent more money or time (time alone, not time gaining a tested skill). The game is different on a deep and demonstrable level.
I'm not typing this again. You're so wrong it hurts.
Actually, I came up with an example that will maybe get this across to people.
Let's say you're playing Starcraft. It's Terran vs. Terran. However, one of the teams has unlocked a new unit either with money, or by getting achievements in previous games. That unit is the trooper. It's the same as a marine in all ways, except it's faster and does a little less damage. It's "equal but different" to the marine. It's still a fair fight that one team has this unit and the other does not, right? Obviously NOT.