Having finished the White Luck Warrior, I am satisfied. It ends at a proper point for the next two books to pick up. No "by god, is that Horatio?!?" moment as with the previous one.
Surprisingly, no one was raped until over halfway through the book. And even then each following rape was a footnote. No more bird men and their black seed being creepy and rapey.
So, I'm only half way through TTT, but this occurred to me after rereading the TDTCB prologue. If the Inchoroi wish to bring about the Apocalypse to end man, therefore ending their own damnation, that can be expressed (in loose terms) as:
So long as men live, there are crimes!
In essence, so long as men survive, the Inchorori are damned as there is a living connection to the Outside. However, when that same prince, that Anasurimbor boy trapped within the walls of Ishual, was found by the Dunyain, they professed:
No, only so long as men are deceived.
Could it be that the Dunyain are the key to the redemption of the Inchoroi through the enlightenment of man? Granted, I'm still not even finished with the first trilogy, so I could be missing something obviously stated at the end of the novel or the next two books. Still, that which comes before...
Also, every single passage about Xerius getting with his mom.
I love that family so much. They're just so impossibly fucked up that you go, "Wow dude, wow."
My favorite passage with the emperor is when he's all like, "I'm better than the emperors of old, right? They used to fling molten gold at their subject." And then later on, he's all, "Damn, what I wouldn't give for some molten gold right now."
If you're gonna be a fucked up douche, you might as well go all the way with it.
Man I could not stop laughing when he told me that line after reading the second book. We have counted exactly one time where the consul did not go for "plan rape" and it actually worked out pretty well for them. They should try it more often.
Considering the sheer amount of that happening all the time through the series I wouldn't say that's a spoiler, more like the status quo. Much like saying someone is going to get raped in one of the books, it's destined to happen.
Forgoing spoiler text because of the title. Proceed with care. Anyway, what you say is true, but there were no reveals for the reader at all. The end of the slog just revealed that Ishual is in ruins, and Achamian murdered a Nonman King and a band of men for absolutely nothing. It felt like a shaggy dog story.
The end of the slog just revealed that Ishual is in ruins, and Achamian murdered a Nonman King and a band of men for absolutely nothing.
Spoilers It also reveals that Nonmen that contacted Khellus are either in league with the Consult or have a consult skin spy imitating the king (Cleric). This means that the hostages are in for some real fucking trouble.
I'm about 100 pages into White Luck Warrior, and enjoying it a lot. The Captain in the slog is a badass, and very enjoyable to read. And the Ordeal seems like it is turning into an ordeal at last.
Personally I think spoilers for the latest books in the new trilogy should be whited out. Please. This is the Prince of Nothing thread, not The Aspect Emperor thread.
The new side project, what I turn to when I burn out on The Unholy Consult, will be a selection of stories and vignettes call Atrocity Tales, concentrating on events from the founding of the Consult to the rise of the Scarlet Spires during the Scholastic Wars. I’ll be posting them online as I go, soliciting feedback, and hopefully providing newcomers a less daunting way to climb into the series. Something to take the density out of The Darkness That Comes Before. Something easier to recommend.
I just finished the trilogy (there are more books?), having read it because Scott and Rym kept hyping it in the podcasts earlier this year and end of last.
I felt like I wasted a lot of time reading those three books. There were some cool ideas and a few interesting stories, but they were 30-40% of the text. Unfortunately the shit that was remotely interesting had been bubble-wrapped in a forgettable, bland and linguistically-obfuscated world. Go look at the first paragraph of book 1 for me, and tell me it isn't absurd. Half the words are some made-up unpronounceable fuck-knows-what! That's how you introduce the reader?
While the core characters and ideas were intriguing and I wanted to follow their story, that the author is a philosopher who writes novels (and not a philosophical novelist) is glaringly apparent every time the story shifts the slightest bit away from them. Even at the end of the book, the "cultures" comprising the Holy War from across the Three Seas were boring and inconsequential. The Ainoni are snooty, the Conriyans are with the Empire... and uh there are the Thanyuri?... and then I-don't-know-how-many facades of cultures. Some have braids, they're all fierce, some use hammers, or something? To the bitter end he referred to secondary characters such as members of the Council of Great and Lesser Names as if anyone remembered them, never mind gave a flying shit about them, and as though he'd given them any treatment beyond mentioning their names here and there. Other authors paint backdrops for their stories, and get the reader invested in secondary characters to create a living world. Bakker just repeated the names of his placeholder tribes as if it would eventually give them weight.
Furthermore, I didn't feel like the magic system was well explained. I don't expect authors to detail the physics or even plausibility of whatever sorcery they invent for their universe, but in this series it was particularly flimsy and ill-defined. Initially I was fascinated, "Can't wait to find out more about this!" but as the books went on and it never went beyond "he sang of truths and comparisons and abstractions" I was disappointed. It came down to a lot of breathing fire, making light-lines and then some watery-stuff from Cishaurim. Bakker said it was about this or that, but never lifted the hood in any way. It was just a trumped-up version of every other sorcery fight - the underpinnings could have just as easily been how well you could hold the image of a pony in your mind. (One small exception being talking about the Gnosis at the very end, but that was ultimately just a setup so that you could see Kellhus take it up a level from two words to three, whooo *twirls finger*).
Finally, the ending of The Thousandfold Thought was a big wet fart. Achamian was carried away by a horrible demon controlled by Iyokus and then... woke up in a fisherman's hut with a cut on his leg? Kellhus' has a showdown with his father that leads to... poking him with a knife and teleporting away? Cnaiur (Cnaiur!) meets Moenghus and does some homoerotic nonsense (my wife is in book 2 and has been saying "My god, this author is so fucking gay!" since book 1... looking forward to that I told you so.) and then he uh... well it's been 4 hours since I finished the book and I already forget, which says a lot about it.
Maybe re-reading both the A Song of Ice and Fire books and The Name of the Wind in the last year has set my storytelling bar too high, but I really felt like I was trudging through muck to get to the interesting parts with these books. I wish the core bits had been removed and put into one book, which would have been about 600 pages, and that we'd actually had some kind of resolution to the story.
Half the words are some made-up unpronounceable fuck-knows-what! That's how you introduce the reader?
There's a glossary for a reason. Yes, it's hard to follow and figure out the proper nouns. But that's why it's such a great book for nerds, and not even close to being a great all around novel. We nerds love fake proper nouns! Just look at how much proper noun gobbledygook is in Harry Potter or Star Wars or any other geekery. Prince of Nothing is just harder because there's more of it, and you get thrown in the deep end.
I'm at the beginning of the fifth book and I can tell you that I know the words so well I can discuss whether the Non-Man Incariol is Ishroi and/or a Quya Mage. I actually think he's the King of Ishterebinth and he's up to something. That's why the king of Cil-Aujas was so interested in him.
Furthermore, I didn't feel like the magic system was well explained.
That's because that's what the book is about. The fourth and fifth books moreso. See, the characters themselves are not entirely sure about how their own world and magic works. They know certain things about the metaphysics of Earwa, mostly from the works of Ajencis. But there are all these questions like why do Cishaurim not bear the mark? What really are chorae and how do they work? How did the school of Aporos create the chorae? How can the logos logically coexist with sorcery and the tekne? The Celmomian prophecy is true! But how can a prophecy be true? That would mean that what came after determined what came before!
I can tell you right now that the reason you didn't like the books is because you missed at least half of what was going on. And I can't really blame you. They're not easy books. You have to read slowly and carefully using the glossaries. And you might not be the nerdy type who enjoys excessive Gandalf girthing with fictional proper nouns. In that case, it's just not FOR you.
I can tell you right now that the reason you didn't like the books is because you missed at least half of what was going on.
Yeah, I think this is the case. I too thought the end of The Thousandfold Thought was very weak, but what had come before was very good. The magic system was mentioned in the first book, and just from the very small amount there I worked out the broad strokes, and why Achamian was so powerful as a single operative when other magicians needed to act as schools. If you read the fight in the library (book 2) and still don't understand what is going on, I agree with Scott, and this just isn't a book for you. Us science fiction and fantasy nerds eat this shit up, but to non-nerds it's just a pile of shit.
Finally, the ending of The Thousandfold Thought was a big wet fart. Achamian was carried away by a horrible demon controlled by Iyokus and then... woke up in a fisherman's hut with a cut on his leg? Kellhus' has a showdown with his father that leads to... poking him with a knife and teleporting away? Cnaiur (Cnaiur!) meets Moenghus and does some homoerotic nonsense (my wife is in book 2 and has been saying "My god, this author is so fucking gay!" since book 1... looking forward to that I told you so.) and then he uh... well it's been 4 hours since I finished the book and I already forget, which says a lot about it.
I too thought the end of The Thousandfold Thought was very weak,
If you consider the ending of TTFT to be the events that Gergor described, then I could see how you think the ending weak. The most climactic and important thing at the end of that book is not any of those things. Not the battle. Not finding Moenghus. It's Cnaiur telling Achamian the truth about Kellhus and Achamian renouncing him.
For three entire books Cnaiur was the only one who Kellhus could not completely come before because Moenghus had come before. One of my favorite scenes is when Cnaiur tells Proyas to keep his hearth sealed if he is to go speak with Kellhus. This tip that Cnaiur gives him allows Proyas to come before in that one instance. Kellhus immediately knows that Cnaiur warned him. For three books Kellhus regrets not having killed Cnaiur. Yet, at every instance Kellhus does seem to keep Cnaiur in bounds. He's the only serious threat to his mission, but Kellhus gets him in the end. Except for that one thing! Except that although Cnaiur dies he passes the baton to Achamian. Now it is not a barbarian, but a sorcerer that Kellhus can not come before. That is the true climax at the end of TTFT. That although the logos has allowed Kellhus to become Aspect Emperor, Cnaiur's legacy yet remains a threat.
Second to that is the revelation to the reader that Kellhus has possibly gone mad. He has seen past the thousand-fold thought of Moenghus. He can see Mog-Pharau. He can see things that come after coming before things which came before. And that contradiction combined with his Dunyain training appears to have driven him mad in a Hamlet sort of way. Yet, because of this training this madness is not obviously apparent. Only Moenghus could see it, if he even saw truthfully. Since Kellhus' expressions and mannerisms always follow the shortest path, his madness is not expressed except in the nature of his true goals, which are unknown. I would not be at all surprised if the Great Ordeal is the shortest path for Kellhus to create and/or become Mog-Pharau. Although, that would be disappointingly simple and obvious. I expect something much more shocking in the remaining books.
I understand all that totally. I loved the way Achamian denounced Kellhus in public, and it sets up for the next trilogy perfectly. While this makes perfect sense in the world, for a novel it was very unsatisfying. I didn't know there would be another trilogy, so was expecting more of an "end" rather than just a next step. The way the action kept switching between Kellhus and the battle, with the final single sentences in the battle scenes, became a farce. Then, just when I thought I had another 100 pages of story to read, the narrative ended, and an unexpected glossary appeared instead. A glossary that removed all the mystery about the world and its history, and just laid it all out for the reader. I LIKED piecing together the history bit by bit from the clues in the narrative, and the dry explanation of all the facts in the glossary spoiled that game.
I get what Bakker was going for, but from a story point of view thought it was weak.
Comments
Surprisingly, no one was raped until over halfway through the book. And even then each following rape was a footnote. No more bird men and their black seed being creepy and rapey.
I asked the same question on the official R. Scott Bakker forum.
http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30968
1) Kellhus is a douche.
2) Cnaiur is awesome.
3) R. Scott Bakker sure does love writing rape scenes.
Though, his The Brave little toaster novelization was good, if a little strange. I never knew you could do that to a household appliance.
Also, the Sranc gangrape at the end of Warrior-Prophet...Y, R. Scott. Y u do dis.
My favorite passage with the emperor is when he's all like, "I'm better than the emperors of old, right? They used to fling molten gold at their subject." And then later on, he's all, "Damn, what I wouldn't give for some molten gold right now."
If you're gonna be a fucked up douche, you might as well go all the way with it.
"The consul is a one trick pony, and that trick is rape".
WHAT DO YOU SEE!?
Anyway, what you say is true, but there were no reveals for the reader at all. The end of the slog just revealed that Ishual is in ruins, and Achamian murdered a Nonman King and a band of men for absolutely nothing. It felt like a shaggy dog story.
Personally I think spoilers for the latest books in the new trilogy should be whited out. Please. This is the Prince of Nothing thread, not The Aspect Emperor thread.
I felt like I wasted a lot of time reading those three books. There were some cool ideas and a few interesting stories, but they were 30-40% of the text. Unfortunately the shit that was remotely interesting had been bubble-wrapped in a forgettable, bland and linguistically-obfuscated world. Go look at the first paragraph of book 1 for me, and tell me it isn't absurd. Half the words are some made-up unpronounceable fuck-knows-what! That's how you introduce the reader?
While the core characters and ideas were intriguing and I wanted to follow their story, that the author is a philosopher who writes novels (and not a philosophical novelist) is glaringly apparent every time the story shifts the slightest bit away from them. Even at the end of the book, the "cultures" comprising the Holy War from across the Three Seas were boring and inconsequential. The Ainoni are snooty, the Conriyans are with the Empire... and uh there are the Thanyuri?... and then I-don't-know-how-many facades of cultures. Some have braids, they're all fierce, some use hammers, or something? To the bitter end he referred to secondary characters such as members of the Council of Great and Lesser Names as if anyone remembered them, never mind gave a flying shit about them, and as though he'd given them any treatment beyond mentioning their names here and there. Other authors paint backdrops for their stories, and get the reader invested in secondary characters to create a living world. Bakker just repeated the names of his placeholder tribes as if it would eventually give them weight.
Furthermore, I didn't feel like the magic system was well explained. I don't expect authors to detail the physics or even plausibility of whatever sorcery they invent for their universe, but in this series it was particularly flimsy and ill-defined. Initially I was fascinated, "Can't wait to find out more about this!" but as the books went on and it never went beyond "he sang of truths and comparisons and abstractions" I was disappointed. It came down to a lot of breathing fire, making light-lines and then some watery-stuff from Cishaurim. Bakker said it was about this or that, but never lifted the hood in any way. It was just a trumped-up version of every other sorcery fight - the underpinnings could have just as easily been how well you could hold the image of a pony in your mind. (One small exception being talking about the Gnosis at the very end, but that was ultimately just a setup so that you could see Kellhus take it up a level from two words to three, whooo *twirls finger*).
Finally, the ending of The Thousandfold Thought was a big wet fart. Achamian was carried away by a horrible demon controlled by Iyokus and then... woke up in a fisherman's hut with a cut on his leg? Kellhus' has a showdown with his father that leads to... poking him with a knife and teleporting away? Cnaiur (Cnaiur!) meets Moenghus and does some homoerotic nonsense (my wife is in book 2 and has been saying "My god, this author is so fucking gay!" since book 1... looking forward to that I told you so.) and then he uh... well it's been 4 hours since I finished the book and I already forget, which says a lot about it.
Maybe re-reading both the A Song of Ice and Fire books and The Name of the Wind in the last year has set my storytelling bar too high, but I really felt like I was trudging through muck to get to the interesting parts with these books. I wish the core bits had been removed and put into one book, which would have been about 600 pages, and that we'd actually had some kind of resolution to the story.
I'm at the beginning of the fifth book and I can tell you that I know the words so well I can discuss whether the Non-Man Incariol is Ishroi and/or a Quya Mage. I actually think he's the King of Ishterebinth and he's up to something. That's why the king of Cil-Aujas was so interested in him. That's because that's what the book is about. The fourth and fifth books moreso. See, the characters themselves are not entirely sure about how their own world and magic works. They know certain things about the metaphysics of Earwa, mostly from the works of Ajencis. But there are all these questions like why do Cishaurim not bear the mark? What really are chorae and how do they work? How did the school of Aporos create the chorae? How can the logos logically coexist with sorcery and the tekne? The Celmomian prophecy is true! But how can a prophecy be true? That would mean that what came after determined what came before!
I can tell you right now that the reason you didn't like the books is because you missed at least half of what was going on. And I can't really blame you. They're not easy books. You have to read slowly and carefully using the glossaries. And you might not be the nerdy type who enjoys excessive Gandalf girthing with fictional proper nouns. In that case, it's just not FOR you.
For three entire books Cnaiur was the only one who Kellhus could not completely come before because Moenghus had come before. One of my favorite scenes is when Cnaiur tells Proyas to keep his hearth sealed if he is to go speak with Kellhus. This tip that Cnaiur gives him allows Proyas to come before in that one instance. Kellhus immediately knows that Cnaiur warned him. For three books Kellhus regrets not having killed Cnaiur. Yet, at every instance Kellhus does seem to keep Cnaiur in bounds. He's the only serious threat to his mission, but Kellhus gets him in the end. Except for that one thing! Except that although Cnaiur dies he passes the baton to Achamian. Now it is not a barbarian, but a sorcerer that Kellhus can not come before. That is the true climax at the end of TTFT. That although the logos has allowed Kellhus to become Aspect Emperor, Cnaiur's legacy yet remains a threat.
Second to that is the revelation to the reader that Kellhus has possibly gone mad. He has seen past the thousand-fold thought of Moenghus. He can see Mog-Pharau. He can see things that come after coming before things which came before. And that contradiction combined with his Dunyain training appears to have driven him mad in a Hamlet sort of way. Yet, because of this training this madness is not obviously apparent. Only Moenghus could see it, if he even saw truthfully. Since Kellhus' expressions and mannerisms always follow the shortest path, his madness is not expressed except in the nature of his true goals, which are unknown. I would not be at all surprised if the Great Ordeal is the shortest path for Kellhus to create and/or become Mog-Pharau. Although, that would be disappointingly simple and obvious. I expect something much more shocking in the remaining books.
I get what Bakker was going for, but from a story point of view thought it was weak.