I want to hype Bakker a bit. If you want some philosophy and metaphysics in your fantasy books, I have not seen better. I'd also say his metaphors are the most on-point to say something. Martin does some things better. Jordan does some things better. Tolkien does some things better. Nobody makes me think back to college classes on logic, ethics, and other parts of philosophy more than Bakker.
Check out Steven Erickson, he is on a par if not above Bakker. Maybe not quite as much on the metaphysics but certainly the philosophy and ethics.
Six books and we've seen... One and a half tekne things? And we're still all going bonkers to find out what the deal is with that half.
Golgotterath is going to have some shit going down.
We have seen a few parts where they are making/summoning Mog-Pharau. It seems like you just trap a bunch of damned souls in a sarcophagus until you hit the limit? I guess this is why the Inchoroi promise they can help people avoid damnation. Be part of the no-god instead of going to hell.
Six books and we've seen... One and a half tekne things? And we're still all going bonkers to find out what the deal is with that half.
Golgotterath is going to have some shit going down.
We have seen a few parts where they are making/summoning Mog-Pharau. It seems like you just trap a bunch of damned souls in a sarcophagus until you hit the limit? I guess this is why the Inchoroi promise they can help people avoid damnation. Be part of the no-god instead of going to hell.
Were those posted on R. Scott Bakkers blog? I don't remember it being in the books.
Also, obvious parallels between the "Zero-god" (which may be absolute nothing or the "absolute" frame of reference of an unborn child, and the "No-god" black hole of damnation.
Six books and we've seen... One and a half tekne things? And we're still all going bonkers to find out what the deal is with that half.
Golgotterath is going to have some shit going down.
We have seen a few parts where they are making/summoning Mog-Pharau. It seems like you just trap a bunch of damned souls in a sarcophagus until you hit the limit? I guess this is why the Inchoroi promise they can help people avoid damnation. Be part of the no-god instead of going to hell.
Were those posted on R. Scott Bakkers blog? I don't remember it being in the books.
There was definitely such a scene in one of the previous two books, but the clearest scene in the newest book in chapter 17. I don't know the page, because Kindle.
Achamian has a dream where he has no teeth and he's tied to some chain along with thousands of other humans. He's definitely in the Ark because of the golden walls covered in sigils.
They are all walking, being pulled forward by this chain. They pass through a room with a ceiling of fire. Up near the ceiling are some crying, damned, non-men who are not chained, but are still somehow enslaved. With every haul on the chain the fire grows.
Then as he kept walking, he sees ahead of him a mighty sarcophag--
OH shiiiiiit!
It appears from this that they make Mog-Pharau by dragging a bunch of damned people into some kind of soul-furnace.
Six books and we've seen... One and a half tekne things? And we're still all going bonkers to find out what the deal is with that half.
Golgotterath is going to have some shit going down.
We have seen a few parts where they are making/summoning Mog-Pharau. It seems like you just trap a bunch of damned souls in a sarcophagus until you hit the limit? I guess this is why the Inchoroi promise they can help people avoid damnation. Be part of the no-god instead of going to hell.
Were those posted on R. Scott Bakkers blog? I don't remember it being in the books.
There was definitely such a scene in one of the previous two books, but the clearest scene in the newest book in chapter 17. I don't know the page, because Kindle.
Achamian has a dream where he has no teeth and he's tied to some chain along with thousands of other humans. He's definitely in the Ark because of the golden walls covered in sigils.
They are all walking, being pulled forward by this chain. They pass through a room with a ceiling of fire. Up near the ceiling are some crying, damned, non-men who are not chained, but are still somehow enslaved. With every haul on the chain the fire grows.
Then as he kept walking, he sees ahead of him a mighty sarcophag--
OH shiiiiiit!
It appears from this that they make Mog-Pharau by dragging a bunch of damned people into some kind of soul-furnace.
This is mostly how I remember it. It was definitely in a previous book. Also, "soul-furnace" FTW.
I definitely remember a similar scene in a previous book. Line of people on a chain or rope being pulled into the darkness. Maybe an Inchoroi was raping everyone too?
Well, that's standard procedure really for Inchoroi.
I want to hype Bakker a bit. If you want some philosophy and metaphysics in your fantasy books, I have not seen better. I'd also say his metaphors are the most on-point to say something. Martin does some things better. Jordan does some things better. Tolkien does some things better. Nobody makes me think back to college classes on logic, ethics, and other parts of philosophy more than Bakker.
Check out Steven Erickson, he is on a par if not above Bakker. Maybe not quite as much on the metaphysics but certainly the philosophy and ethics.
Steven Erickson is amazing. I have one more book left to read in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series and I keep putting it off because I don't want it to end.
I paused half way through the third Malazan book to read the Aspect Emperor #1, #2 and #3. And I must admit I can't wait to get back to Malazan.
The Great Ordeal was a real miss for me. Sure, it picked up in the last third, but by then I found it pretty hard to care.
I felt like the first two books were leaving behind a lot of the more childish parts of the first trilogy, all the wankery of Kelhus and him manipulating people and shit. He was a distant presence in those two books, and that made them much stronger. We got a taste of him either from a distance, or in how his influence continues in his offspring.
But in this book, all that is laid on thick again. The stuff with Proyas? Not fun. And then the same ground is covered by Kelnomas in Momemn. And then we get it again with Kelhus's son and grandson. Too much!
I may have said this already, but during the buggery of Proyas I didn't take it literally until the later chapter when the other guy straight up asks him if that's what happened. I think all the prior works basically made me care not-at-all about sranc and whatever other physical grimdark was supposedly going on. The whale mothers and the non-men were still interesting to me, but Proyas and the great ordeal turning into sranc-like just felt like footnotes. And Yatwer's priestess, I want her to shut up and go away as much as pretty much every other character in the books.
I felt a little Games of Thrones fatigue reading this one, honestly. I don't care about Momemn or anyone there - Kellhus is about the only thing that matters at this point. Even worse, fuck-all happens until Special K shows up!
Clearly Bakker is planning something with that story arc, or he wouldn't have talked about it for 3 books, but damn. I'm having a hard time envisioning anything cool coming out of that plot.
After my initial "meh" reaction to the book, I guessed it might be due to me listening to the audiobook rather than reading a text version. So I decided to go back through and listen to some parts of some of the story lines individually.
First, the second half of Achamian's story line. It was much better on the second listen. I picked up on way more small details. Broken Dunyain are quite interesting.
Second, I'm trying to get through Sorwiel's story in Ishterebinth. I can't do it! I realize now that I must have just tuned out during these chapter in my first listen. He puts on the helm, gets another soul, and then... what? They get into a boat, and I just can't make it. I fall asleep listening to this chapter. Or else I get a few minutes further in and just faze out.
I'll give it a few more goes, but otherwise that part is just lost to me.
The Shinji (Sorweel) part is tough because nobody ever cared about this dude. He has no connection to the first trilogy. Like you watch Zeta Gundam and Char and Amuro are there from the original Gundam, so you care about them a lot. Meanwhile there's all these new characters that they never succeed in making you care about.
However, before he gets on the boat Shinji teams up with one of the last remaining non-man who isn't insane yet. You also get to see the evil and insane replacement non-man king. Once that well reaches the bottom they meet the non-insane non-mans father. Since this book is all about everyone having daddy issues. That is when shit goes down hard. I don't care about Sorweel but I really want to know the mysteries of the non-men.
I paused half way through the third Malazan book to read the Aspect Emperor #1, #2 and #3. And I must admit I can't wait to get back to Malazan.
Its totally worth it. I'm on the prequel stuff, half way through Forge of Darkness, dear god is it a tragedy in the truest sense. I was talking to my brother about how people are all on Martin for doing brutal scenes and we both agreed that Erickson pulls worse stuff. Be warned with the later books, the Chain of Dogs and the Whirlwind are not the worst things by a long shot.
Slightly back on topic its a cool thing I noted between both Bakker and Erickson that when they are showing a character getting the stuffing knocked out of the it is much more the emotional pain and the compete destruction of all that the held deer to them that is so bad rather than the physical pain. Its that really cool build up of characterisation that then bubbles over which sets them apart from other writers in the 'grimdark' crowd.
Cnaiur is back! But what did you guys think of the entirety of the People of War being unified and mobilized, out of nowhere, by the other guy who knows everything about the Aspect Emperor and a skinspy no less, without a single mention in the previous books? I can't tell if it's bad writing or Khellus' greatest grift yet.
Kellhus turns to the camera Frank Underwood style.
"naw, you'll get people telling you that the way to success is to be a breaker of horses and men. Personally, I never saw the point of breaking horses, you invest time, money, effort, what do you get? A dumb animal that only follows the simplest orders. Break the man, hawever, you have the horse, because you have the rahder."
Comments
Make it deep enough, and it becomes a black hole. Nothing, not even light, can escape.
Also, obvious parallels between the "Zero-god" (which may be absolute nothing or the "absolute" frame of reference of an unborn child, and the "No-god" black hole of damnation.
Achamian has a dream where he has no teeth and he's tied to some chain along with thousands of other humans. He's definitely in the Ark because of the golden walls covered in sigils.
They are all walking, being pulled forward by this chain. They pass through a room with a ceiling of fire. Up near the ceiling are some crying, damned, non-men who are not chained, but are still somehow enslaved. With every haul on the chain the fire grows.
Then as he kept walking, he sees ahead of him a mighty sarcophag--
OH shiiiiiit!
It appears from this that they make Mog-Pharau by dragging a bunch of damned people into some kind of soul-furnace.
Well, that's standard procedure really for Inchoroi.
The Great Ordeal was a real miss for me. Sure, it picked up in the last third, but by then I found it pretty hard to care.
I felt like the first two books were leaving behind a lot of the more childish parts of the first trilogy, all the wankery of Kelhus and him manipulating people and shit. He was a distant presence in those two books, and that made them much stronger. We got a taste of him either from a distance, or in how his influence continues in his offspring.
But in this book, all that is laid on thick again. The stuff with Proyas? Not fun. And then the same ground is covered by Kelnomas in Momemn. And then we get it again with Kelhus's son and grandson. Too much!
Clearly Bakker is planning something with that story arc, or he wouldn't have talked about it for 3 books, but damn. I'm having a hard time envisioning anything cool coming out of that plot.
First, the second half of Achamian's story line. It was much better on the second listen. I picked up on way more small details. Broken Dunyain are quite interesting.
Second, I'm trying to get through Sorwiel's story in Ishterebinth. I can't do it! I realize now that I must have just tuned out during these chapter in my first listen. He puts on the helm, gets another soul, and then... what? They get into a boat, and I just can't make it. I fall asleep listening to this chapter. Or else I get a few minutes further in and just faze out.
I'll give it a few more goes, but otherwise that part is just lost to me.
However, before he gets on the boat Shinji teams up with one of the last remaining non-man who isn't insane yet. You also get to see the evil and insane replacement non-man king. Once that well reaches the bottom they meet the non-insane non-mans father. Since this book is all about everyone having daddy issues. That is when shit goes down hard. I don't care about Sorweel but I really want to know the mysteries of the non-men.
Slightly back on topic its a cool thing I noted between both Bakker and Erickson that when they are showing a character getting the stuffing knocked out of the it is much more the emotional pain and the compete destruction of all that the held deer to them that is so bad rather than the physical pain. Its that really cool build up of characterisation that then bubbles over which sets them apart from other writers in the 'grimdark' crowd.
WHAT DO YOU SEE