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Why can't video game films be made by gamers with actual film talent?

GeoGeo
edited January 2009 in Everything Else
I was inspired by the recent hubbub on the Avatar thread to talk about this. As a both a gamer and a filmmaker I've always wondered why can't video game movies be made by people who actually play the games they are based on? It wouldn't be hard for someone who is a goddamn good filmmaker make a Legend of Zelda movie when they themselves are diehard fans who know the lore and whatnot.
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  • I think it's because the video games worthy of movies aren't nearly mainstream enough to justify the cost of producing a movie that lives up to the game. Pretty much every game with a story worth adapting would be some sort of action movie with lots of special effects and money being thrown everywhere. You can make up the cost of production with games with each copy being $50, but you have to reach a much wider audience with movie tickets and DVD prices being what they are. As an example, Bioshock sold 2.5 million copies, whereas Wall-E sold over 8 million movie tickets in it's first weekend. One could argue that if it were advertised well as a summer action/thriller that it could make up the difference, but video game movies are notoriously bad. A really excellent one would be completely out of left field for gamers and non gamers alike, and that can't seem like a safe investment from an executive's point of view.
  • GeoGeo
    edited January 2009
    I think it's because the video games worthy of movies aren't nearly mainstream enough to justify the cost of producing a movie that lives up to the game. Pretty much every game with a story worth adapting would be some sort of action movie with lots of special effects and money being thrown everywhere. You can make up the cost of production with games with each copy being $50, but you have to reach a much wider audience with movie tickets and DVD prices being what they are. As an example, Bioshock sold 2.5 million copies, whereas Wall-E sold over 8 million movie tickets in it's first weekend. One could argue that if it were advertised well as a summer action/thriller that it could make up the difference, but video game movies are notoriously bad. A really excellent one would be completely out of left field for gamers and non gamers alike, and that can't seem like a safe investment from an executive's point of view.
    Very well said. Couldn't have said it better myself. However, I would like to make a few comments on your acumen. I think that if you want to sell video games as a market to the average moviegoer, you have to know what to leave in and what to leave out. Like for instance, a Zelda movie can't have Link finding keys everywhere in a dungeon and unlocking the doors all over the place. Also, you have to make the trailer as fucking epic as possible so it will get some buzz and attract some attention. In terms of storytelling, video games are not so different from novels in that they each tell a story and can be successfully adapted if done properly; point in case: Forrest Gump and Super Mario Brothers: The Great Mission to Rescue Princess Peach!! However, the only problem is, is that Hollywood doesn't take video game seriously enough to make it a sustainable market.They will pretty much just throw money at it and just toss in a average director to shoddily direct it -cough Uwe Boll cough.

    It is my belief, that video games will have a Big Bang, similar to how comics had a big bang. I mean comics weren't popular movie adaptions back then, but now it's being whored out. Yet look at the parallel with video game movies, not so different eh?
    Post edited by Geo on
  • edited January 2009
    point in case: Forrest Gump
    I agree with everything you said, but this made me do a double take. Forrest Gump was a video game?

    Oh wait, I'm an ass. Never mind.
    Post edited by Walker on
  • Please consider that the first generation with a significant number of people that have been video-gamers for the majority of their lives are now reaching their 30's. They are just now getting to an age where they can create such films. In the past, it was old folks trying to sell a product that they only had a superficial understanding of to a bunch of kids. Now it will be talented life-long fans making movies for people of a larger age range.
  • So, what video games would make good movies?
  • So, what video games would make good movies?
    The ones that already are movies.

    See, most of the really good video games are very thin on plot. That's because a good game is all about interactivity. A game like Metroid or Zelda has almost no story whatsoever. Save the princess, beat the bad guy. That's about all there is to it. The reason they are great games is because the interactivity of the adventure is so amazing. Exploring caves inside an alien planet, alone, for days on end makes a great game and a terrible movie. The reason these kinds of games almost always fail in translation to film is because someone is given the impossible task of making shit up that can fill in 90+ minutes of screen time.

    The games that would make better movies, and have richer plots, are already movies. Metal Gear Solid games, Final Fantasy games, etc. are already movies. If you take all the FMV content and watch it end to end, you've got yourself a movie. No need to make something separate. Actually, in many cases, all those FMVs add up to something that is far too long and complex to be a movie in theaters or on DVD.

    There are lots of video games that occupy some sort of middle space. They have a slightly richer plot, but also enough interactivity to be a good game. Maybe something like Resident Evil, but even then people fail to translate it into a good movie.

    What it really comes down to is licensed properties. Most of the time when someone brings a license from one medium to another, they're just trying to make money. Take someone's favorite comic, and make a movie out of it, and you've got an instant audience. You don't have to make it the best thing ever. It just has to be good enough to make the money back. It's much easier and much less risky than trying something completely new. Very rarely does someone actually try to adapt something with actual care. When they do, you can get some Lord of the Rings type action going on. Really though, what producer and filmmaker respects and loves a video game property that much to give it that kind of treatment?
  • edited January 2009
    As Scott pointed out, a lot of video games are lacking in plot. When someone creates a more developed plot within that universe using the characters (regardless of how good that plot may be) it will piss off its fan base because it isn't "cannon".

    I think there is a potential for more video-game based movies (Zelda, Half Life, etc.), but I think they will not come 'round until the comic book movie well runs dry and industries need a pull for the geek audience.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • See, most of the really good video games are very thin on plot. That's because a good game is all about interactivity. A game like Metroid or Zelda has almost no story whatsoever. Save the princess, beat the bad guy. That's about all there is to it. The reason they are great games is because the interactivity of the adventure is so amazing. Exploring caves inside an alien planet, alone, for days on end makes a great game and a terrible movie. The reason these kinds of games almost always fail in translation to film is because someone is given the impossible task of making shit up that can fill in 90+ minutes of screen time.
    I could imagine a decent movie being made from Rogue Squadron, Crimson Skies, or The Suffering. What about GTA? Is there no movie fodder there whatsoever?
  • This is somewhat tangential, but wasn't Zelda based on Legend?

    In all honesty, I'll be happy if somebody, someday, can make a decent Max Payne movie, to erase the memory of the abortion that is the extant one.
  • This is somewhat tangential, but wasn't Zelda based onLegend?
    I am not sure if it is based on it, but they both draw from certain classic and even cliche fantasy archetypes. I have only ever watched Zelda being played, but there was substantial plot and it has gone far beyond the simple plot of Legend (which I recently re-watched and Mr. MacRoss watched for the first time over Christmas).
  • This is somewhat tangential, but wasn't Zelda based onLegend?
    The Legend of Zelda was inspired by Miyamoto's childhood. He wandered around the woods near his house a lot as a kid, and he wanted to create that same feeling of exploration.

    Also, the movie Legend came out in the UK in December of '85 and in the US in April of '86. The Legend of Zelda came out in Japan in February of '86 and in the US in August of '87. With that sort of timing, I highly doubt anyone who worked on the original Zelda had seen or heard of the movie at the time.
  • Well, I guess I was wrong about that. I probably just lumped the two together in my head because they're both early memories.

    I wouldn't say that The Legend of Zelda had "substantial" plot; while Legend had a relatively simple and cliché plot, it was more in-depth than the original Zelda. Later games gained a lot more plot, particularly A Link to the Past (the second best game ever).

    Part of the issue, as has been mentioned, is that making a movie out of movie-ready, plot-heavy games will piss off the canon-obsessed fanbase, and it will miss your target audience. What I'd really like to see is a filmmaker who takes a game with a thin (but still present) plot and actually makes something out of it. Take the themes or core ideas of the game and expand on them. Just don't let Uwe Boll anywhere near any sort of franchise, and you're set.
  • As Scott pointed out, a lot of video games are lacking in plot. When someone creates a more developed plot within that universe using the characters (regardless of how good that plot may be) it will piss off its fan base because it isn't "cannon".

    I think there is a potential for more video-game based movies (Zelda, Half Life, etc.), but I think they will not come 'round until the comic book movie well runs dry and industries need a pull for the geek audience.
    Funny you should bring up those two examples, because they're exactly what I was thinking before I ever clicked on this thread: Characterization. Yes, in both Zelda and Half Life, the heroes get away with being mutes, and in most games the protagonists are a bit blank in order to help the player imagine that he is the hero. Not that it would affect the gameplay, but I shudder to think how OoT would play if Link was constantly spouting out "excuuuuuuse me, princess!" At this point, I think in either series (or any other series with a silent protagonist) the fans would slam it if the protagonist were characterized "incorrectly", not unlike how readers hate when a movie's actor doesn't necessarily follow how they perceived the character. The fact that most games can get away with a repetitive plot because the gameplay covers it is far more important, but it is a factor.

    I think a much bigger question is why can't the average game be made by someone who can think of a competent storyline? With some exceptions, most games that promise to deliver story end up failing miserably (Gears of War 2 is the latest example to come to mind). Instead, it seems like the most celebrated stories, when summarized, are really just folk tales.
  • Part of the issue, as has been mentioned, is that making a movie out of movie-ready, plot-heavy games will piss off the canon-obsessed fanbase, and it will miss your target audience. What I'd really like to see is a filmmaker who takes a game with a thin (but still present) plot and actually makes something out of it. Take the themes or core ideas of the game and expand on them. Just don't let Uwe Boll anywhere near any sort of franchise, and you're set.
    See, filling in the blanks doesn't work so well either. Take Metroid for example. All the early Metroid games had almost no plot. Oh no space pirates! The major appeal of the games was the long, dark, lonely, eerie, quiet journey through subex-terranean caverns full of wonderful and nasty things.

    Metroid Fusion and Metroid Prime 3 both attempted to fill in some blanks. Fusion added a computer that talked to you, and filled in some history. Metroid Prime 3 actually had direct interaction with other characters. Space started to feel a lot less lonely. While the gameplay was just fine, the feel was totally lost. Filling in the plot of Metroid necessarily destroys the essence of Metroid, which is dark loneliness.

    The same goes for something like Zelda. While the land of Hyrule is much more rich with characters than Planet Zebes, the main character of Link is notably mute. Miyamoto has often said that Link is the connection between the player and the game world. He doesn't talk because he's you. He doesn't have to talk, because you are there. The last time link talked he said "Excuuuuuse me princess!" That's not really going to work out so well.

    I try to think of games that could become decent movies, and almost every single one I think of effectively already contains a decent movie within itself. Pokemon, Professor Layton, Earthbound, Half-Life, Star Control 2, I could go on.

    Maybe the best bet for making a video game movie is to take a game that is super duper sparse, and just create an otherwise good movie around it. Make a really good alien invasion movie, then just happen to call it X-Com. Make a really good movie about terrorists, and happen to call it Kaboom!
  • I think a much bigger question is why can't the average game be made by someone who can think of a competent storyline? With some exceptions, most games that promise to deliver story end up failing miserably (Gears of War 2 is the latest example to come to mind). Instead, it seems like the most celebrated stories, when summarized, are really just folk tales.
    Because you aren't playing old PC games.
  • This is somewhat tangential, but wasn't Zelda based onLegend?

    In all honesty, I'll be happy if somebody, someday, can make a decentMax Paynemovie, to erase the memory of the abortion that is the extant one.
    I wanted to shoot myself after seeing that. They made a mockery of that series with that movie. Hollywood didn't even attempt, didn't even attempt to do a good job on that movie! Is it really that hard to make a good movie, nevermind the fact that it was based on a videogame!
  • Scott has a point; most video game stories that I really enjoy don't need t be made into movies. One of the best examples, and the one I've most enjoyed recently, would be Mass Effect. It's already a fun action/sci-fi romp, and a film adaption would only serve to limit the scope and depth of the game. The only way a good adaption could be made out of the game is if they stripped away most of the familiar characters and simply used the universe in which it's set, but at that point you're just milking the brand.
  • edited January 2009
    Part of the issue, as has been mentioned, is that making a movie out of movie-ready, plot-heavy games will piss off the canon-obsessed fanbase, and it will miss your target audience. What I'd really like to see is a filmmaker who takes a game with a thin (but still present) plot and actually makes something out of it. Take the themes or core ideas of the game and expand on them. Just don't let Uwe Boll anywhere near any sort of franchise, and you're set.
    See, filling in the blanks doesn't work so well either. Take Metroid for example. All the early Metroid games had almost no plot. Oh no space pirates! The major appeal of the games was the long, dark, lonely, eerie, quiet journey through subex-terranean caverns full of wonderful and nasty things.

    Metroid Fusion and Metroid Prime 3 both attempted to fill in some blanks. Fusion added a computer that talked to you, and filled in some history. Metroid Prime 3 actually had direct interaction with other characters. Space started to feel a lot less lonely. While the gameplay was just fine, the feel was totally lost. Filling in the plot of Metroid necessarily destroys the essence of Metroid, which is dark loneliness.

    The same goes for something like Zelda. While the land of Hyrule is much more rich with characters than Planet Zebes, the main character of Link is notably mute. Miyamoto has often said that Link is the connection between the player and the game world. He doesn't talk because he's you. He doesn't have to talk, because you are there. The last time link talked he said "Excuuuuuse me princess!" That's not really going to work out so well.

    I try to think of games that could become decent movies, and almost every single one I think of effectively already contains a decent movie within itself. Pokemon, Professor Layton, Earthbound, Half-Life, Star Control 2, I could go on.

    Maybe the best bet for making a video game movie is to take a game that is super duper sparse, and just create an otherwise good movie around it. Make a really good alien invasion movie, then just happen to call it X-Com. Make a really good movie about terrorists, and happen to call it Kaboom!
    Excellent points about Metroid and Zelda. That's also why a Half-Life movie is impossible, unless you don't make Gordon Freeman the protagonist. Any "immersive" game like that simply can't work as a movie; really, they're already one sort of visual artistic experience, and that doesn't translate well into film.

    I was getting at your suggestion; take a really thinly plotted game and just make a movie around it. If there's no canon to violate, you can't really piss anyone off. I think the real issue is that there just aren't that many quality filmmakers, and it's really really easy to completely ruin something when you cram it into 100 - 150 minutes of screentime.

    EDIT: Max Payne mini-rant:

    It was already done for them. Completely. The character fundamentals were there, the plot basics were there, the action sequences were perfect. The imagery and themes were all there. There was even a tone: game noir. Simple. Make a goddamn film noir movie and you're halfway there.

    They didn't do that. At all. They took a NOIR VIDEO GAME and DID NOT MAKE A FILM NOIR MOVIE. HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

    Besides all that, the storytelling was ridiculously disjointed, and plot elements from the game seemed to be thrown in haphazardly. A modicum of care, a bit of thought, would've made it worth watching.

    And there weren't even any good action sequences. It's a shooting video game with bullet time, and they managed to make the least interesting action sequences I've ever seen.

    Fuck that movie and everyone associated with it.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • edited January 2009
    About the poll: Can we have an "It's possible.." option?
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • edited January 2009
    I was getting at your suggestion; take a really thinly plotted game and just make a movie around it. If there's no canon to violate, you can't really piss anyone off. I think the real issue is that there just aren't that many quality filmmakers, and it's really really easy to completely ruin something when you cram it into 100 - 150 minutes of screentime.
    It's also really easy if you aren't trying, don't care, and don't have the resources. Peter Jackson loved Lord of the Rings, had a gazillion dollars, has lots of film-making skill/talent, and tried really hard. You think Uve Boll loves any of the games he made movies for, has a gazillion dollars, has talent/skill, or tries very hard? No, he just does enough to get a paycheck. If he made his own movies, instead of video game movies, he would be a nobody. Working with licensed properties allows you to profit from crap due to the existing audience.

    You can see the same thing happen when they make video games, tv shows, or comic books from licensed properties. Because the original work was created by someone else, nobody actually working on it typically cares all that much. Very often they will change it to something they like, pissing on the original creator's vision. They're just trying to get a paycheck, not trying to make great art.

    What could be awesome is if someone re-attempted the //Hack idea. Find someone with video game skills and also movie skills, Spielberg? Then make a new video game and a new movie at the same time that go to together. I mean, remember the Matrix MMO that bombed? What if there had only bee one movie, and the MMO started while the movie was in theatres, and didn't suck? That would have been something.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • The problem boils down to: There is no human being able to cater to the hordes of fanboys that will always think they would do a better job. No movie based on a game you are fond of will ever be as good as you wished since most of the experience is different from person to person, SPECIALLY with old games that left even MORE to the imagination of the gamer. So the sacrilege of some is the experience of others, so unless you can guarantee that EVERYONE had the same experience with a game, the movie is going to fail, same thing happens with comics.

    To the same point, why would you like a movie about a game you have already beaten, if it's just going to tell you the same thing you went through in the game? These types of movies are not catered to readers or to gamers, they are a secondary market (not even harry potter as the book really started to sell worldwide after the 1st movie). So if they change shit, the people that don't know the original material won't care, and the people that do know it shouldn't care either, its a story based on something you already know, they are giving you something fresh and different. If you want the stuff to be the exact thing as in the game, PLAY THE GAME.
  • The problem boils down to: There is no human being able to cater to the hordes of fanboys that will always think they would do a better job. No movie based on a game you are fond of will ever be as good as you wished since most of the experience is different from person to person, SPECIALLY with old games that left even MORE to the imagination of the gamer. So the sacrilege of some is the experience of others, so unless you can guarantee that EVERYONE had the same experience with a game, the movie is going to fail, same thing happens with comics.

    To the same point, why would you like a movie about a game you have already beaten, if it's just going to tell you the same thing you went through in the game? These types of movies are not catered to readers or to gamers, they are a secondary market (not even harry potter as the book really started to sell worldwide after the 1st movie). So if they change shit, the people that don't know the original material won't care, and the people that do know it shouldn't care either, its a story based on something you already know, they are giving you something fresh and different. If you want the stuff to be the exact thing as in the game, PLAY THE GAME.
    That's actually what I look for in film adaptations of anything: a fresh take. I liked that the Lord of the Rings films omitted sections from the books, because quite frankly, I've already read the damn books. Show me something different. The only issue that arises is when your film is advertised as one thing but is actually something else. Case in point: Transformers, a story that is supposed to be about giant space robots but wound up being about high school romance with robot guests.

    On an unrelated note, Shoot 'em Up is probably the best movie to deliver exactly what it said it would deliver. In that regard, it's a triumph of filmmaking. However, I have a feeling that it would make a godawful video game.
  • "Working with licensed properties allows you to profit from crap due to the existing audience."

    The point about Uwe Boll, from what I understand of German tax laws, is that he doesn't need to make any profit. In Germany, if you invest in films made by German production companies, you can write off your investment 100% against tax. So, Uwe says to rich Germans "Instead of paying tax to the government, pay me 20 million euro to make a film." And people do. If the film makes no money, the investors don't care. If the film somehow DOES make money, the investors only pay tax on the profits. It is a win win situation for Uwe, his investors and the German film industry, and a lose lose situation for game fans.

    Uwe has got a good thing going, and maybe one day he'll actually direct a film that is worth watching at all. Meanwhile, don't complain about the crap he makes, you are just watching a celluloid tax dodge by rich Germans.
  • edited January 2009
    So tell me, how much German tax law do you understand? That strikes me as a bit odd but an interesting patriot take on the patriot system.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • I don't understand much, but I know enough so I don't actually pay any tax on any of my earnings.
  • Can you make a "Maybe" option?
  • A quick google later:

    Tax Benefits

    The tax benefits available in Germany are astonishing. German tax law permits the immediate deduction of the cost of creating "intangible" assets, including films. Thus, investors are able to immediately write off the entire cost of producing a film. This is in stark contrast to almost all other tax systems, which require the cost of creating a film to be amortized either over a number of years or as a percentage of revenues received (in order to match deductions and income). Under the German tax system, investors get deductions now and income later, which is the stuff tax dreams are made of. With tax rates in excess of 50%, the up-front deduction is a substantial benefit, which is magnified if the investment is leveraged with debt. For example, if the debt/equity ratio is 1:1, the investor immediately gets back more in tax savings than the amount of the investor's actual cash investment (although the investor will be liable for repayment of the debt later on).

    Most importantly, the films do not have to be produced at all in Germany. Most countries that have film tax shelters require production in the home country, and the tax shelters serve as an indirect, but intended, subsidy for local production. In contrast, Germany's system results in an unintentional subsidy for worldwide production. This fact has not escaped the German government's attention, and overtime, Germany has passed increasingly restrictive requirements on German tax shelters. These restrictions have changed the business model (discussed below), but they have not - by any means - changed the fundamental benefits of film tax shelters outlined above.
  • edited January 2009
    Scott has a point; most video game stories that I really enjoy don't need t be made into movies. One of the best examples, and the one I've most enjoyed recently, would be Mass Effect. It's already a fun action/sci-fi romp, and a film adaption would only serve to limit the scope and depth of the game. The only way a good adaption could be made out of the game is if they stripped away most of the familiar characters and simply used the universe in which it's set, but at that point you're just milking the brand.
    Upon remembering Mass Effect and recomposing myself by crying naked while huddled in the corner of shower stall (also, I never really made clear that I was focusing on modern games, which have the technology to really deliver something more), I must rescind my statement about average games nowadays not providing a decent storyline. I guess Gears 2 left me more jaded than I originally thought.
    Post edited by Schnevets on
  • I think video games do not work as movies because video games are great because they put you into situations and let you decide and act them out. Watching a movie isn't very interactive but then again that's just IMO
  • > gamers
    > talent
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