As I was saying in our chat, they're arguing X, you're arguing Y. The argument is over what causes the PAX attitude, and no one has hard evidence either way.
We have all the evidence we need. How about this.
E3 has the same subject matter as PAX. The same people who used to go to E3 are now going to PAX.
How come PAX is completely different from E3 despite having extremely similar load out of attendees, and both having strong industry presence?
Why then are comic cons so completely different at almost every level from anime cons?
And why are all comic-cons so different? Heroes con is completely different from MoCCA festival, completely different from NYCC, from CCI, from Wizard World *, and so on.
The times. They are a changing.
..no one has hard evidence either way.
People are human. Everything said may or may not be true for any single individual. Psychology and sociology are not hard sciences. (2+2=pie!)
They are. It's just that much of what you read is soft conjecture. There are branches of hard, evidence-based, measurable, quantifiable study. Not just here, but in realms like FP as well. Sociology and psychology are just applied physics with more variables than we can currently easily manage. ;^)
You made way too many assumptions there, you have no evidence. You have an opinion, perhaps a hypothesis.
Ok, how about this then.
The general behavior of the Otakon population has not changed, year after year. Correct. The age of the Otakon attendance has not increased. Therefore, attendees stop coming as they age, and newer young people are coming for the first time. Year after year it's different people coming, but the behavior is very similar.
PAX East had almost entirely different people than PAX West. The high level people were almost all the same exact people who flew over from Seattle, but the attendance was almost all east coast people who had never been to PAX West.
Yet, PAX East and West were so similar, even though the people were so different.
Pete would have you believe it's because Otakon is an anime con and PAX is a gaming con. The fact that not all gaming cons are like PAX, and that not all anime cons are like Otakon, straight up refutes this. What is the common factor? Not geography. Not the geekery in question. It's the programming and the people in charge. The convention dictates its own culture and atmosphere.
Just a thought but you also realize that anime conventions are the only (our geekery) conventions that have a near 50/50 cross section of men to women. Could it be the fact that anime conventions both skew young and have a lot of the opposite sex, as well as a lot of repressed individuals*crazy teenage hormones = asshatery. All other conventions screw older and for the most part heavily to men, guess where I am going to go with this :-p
What I meant by you have no evidence to really prove anything. As an outside observer to this argument, you're both just arguing the same thing repeatedly with no real way to prove or disprove any particular opinion.
And I mean by that is, you've both said your piece, let it go. This thread is getting really cluttered and there is actually a con going on that people might wanna discuss.
What I meant by you have no evidence toreallyprove anything. As an outside observer to this argument, you're both just arguing the same thing repeatedly with no real way to prove or disprove any particular opinion.
And I mean by that is, you've both said your piece, let it go. This thread is getting really cluttered and there is actually a con going on that people might wanna discuss
Hey George, You're talking to at least 3 hardcore Otakon attendees who all didn't go this year, if we want to bitch and complain about the kids on our lawns in this thread we will go on about it. That's what old people do argue with each other stubbornly until we forget what we were arguing about and work together to keep the kids down.
Hey George, You're talking to at least 3 hardcore Otakon attendees who all didn't go this year, if we want to bitch and complain about he kids on our lawns in this thread we will go on about it. That's what old people do argue with each other stubbornly until we forget what we were arguing about and work together to keep the kids down.
Mark my words, I will get my baseball back. *shakes fist*
If Otakon can give us a staff schedule (or just kick us off the staff and be done with it) and a panel schedule within a reasonable span ahead of the convention, we'll gladly return next year (though lacking most of the rest of the FRC). ;^)
Yup. However, you should note that "kid" exists independent of the actual age of the attendee.
I'm more optimistic. I've seen typical screaming Bleach kids choke up when you show them the Daicon animation after explaining what it is. As Daryl Surat so eloquently puts it, these are the "this is why we fight" moments.
Kick the kids out, and you kick out most future generations of fans.
Otakon's problem is that the culture of the con itself kicks the non-kids out...
Near as I can tell, right now you're all arguing about how to keep the kids down. ;-)
No. Pete is saying to kick the kids out entirely. We're saying to make the kids rise up.
Yeah, I have already had this conversation with Pete, and it's just a place where he's got his ideas and won't budge. It's fine if you just want to find out what he thinks and tell him what you think, but it's kind of pointless to have a debate focused on changing his mind. It won't work.
Yeah, I have already had this conversation with Pete, and it's just a place where he's got his ideas and won't budge. It's fine if you just want to find out what he thinks and tell him what you think, but it's kind of pointless to have a debate focused on changing his mind. It won't work.
Wow. When the girlfriend can't change his mind, there's no hope.
Yeah, I have already had this conversation with Pete, and it's just a place where he's got his ideas and won't budge. It's fine if you just want to find out what he thinks and tell him what you think, but it's kind of pointless to have a debate focused on changing his mind. It won't work.
You just made Pete, Scott Rubin in that statement...
Yeah, I have already had this conversation with Pete, and it's just a place where he's got his ideas and won't budge. It's fine if you just want to find out what he thinks and tell him what you think, but it's kind of pointless to have a debate focused on changing his mind. It won't work.
You just made Pete, Scott Rubin in that statement...
Pete acts just like Scott Rubin regarding this subject.
Plus, Girlfriend has not that much interest in changing his mind, as it is not really important to any of my goals. Pete agrees with me on the substance of what we think will make better CTcon programming, and Pete has no way to impose his all-or-nothing panel substance requirements on anything I care about. Therefore, it is harmless to let him carry on with his grumpy old man opinion that no circle jerk fan activity should ever be allowed.
If Pete wants the punk kids to just leave, he should go to some small Sci-Fi cons. That's what happens when you kick them out instead of fixing them. I'll take even Anime NEXT over I-Con every time.
If Pete wants the punk kids to just leave, he should go to some small Sci-Fi cons. That's what happens when you kick them out instead of fixing them.
Truth. Those cons are scary and crotchety.
uhh no... There are kids that go to them. There are just fewer, because the programming is mostly focused on skill building. Kids aren't generally so interested in building marketable writing or illustration skills. Also, those small SF cons generally have their craziness in the hotel rooms at night rather than in the con space. If you want to know what kind of crowd will be at a con, look at the programming.
Pete acts just like Scott Rubin regarding this subject.
Pete has more observations that he has not related.
Let me sum this up. I'm a metal geek too. I'm one of the only metal geeks in the crew, and I've been to a lot of metal shows. I've met a lot of other metal geeks.
Metal geeks are often gaming and/or anime geeks. They're also often other types of geeks. Yet metal geeks of all sorts are more like other metal geeks than they are other geeks, even those geeks of similar persuasion. A metal/anime/gaming geek has more in common with a metal/car geek than they do with an anime/gaming geek.
Obviously, metal is the common linkage. A-duh. But what is it about metal geekdom that binds metal geeks together and overrides other geekdoms?
Obviously, metal is the common linkage. A-duh. But what is it about metal geekdom that binds metal geeks together and overrides other geekdoms?
The atmosphere and psychology of the metal event itself. It's dark. You're down in a pit crowded in with other people. Someone is playing some fucking awesome live music right there in front of your face. The music is intense. You let loose. The people around you let loose. You bond.
I'm not a huge metal head. I like me some metals. If I go to a metal concert, I can get all into it just as well. The concert makes you do it. Just like Otakon makes you act a fool and PAX makes you be awesome.
The atmosphere and psychology of the metal event itself. It's dark. You're down in a pit crowded in with other people. Someone is playing some fucking awesome live music right there in front of your face. The music is intense. You let loose. The people around you let loose. You bond.
I'm not a huge metal head. I like me some metals. If I go to a metal concert, I can get all into it just as well. The concert makes you do it. Just like Otakon makes you act a fool and PAX makes you be awesome.
The overriding similarity extends outside of the context of a concert.
You're right about the concert experience. Concerts are mini-cons full of social geeks. Metal concerts are different than other concerts for reasons other than the music, though. People bond at a Billy Joel show too. The people who bond at a Billy Joel show are extremely different than the people who bond at a Lightning Swords of Death show.
The overriding similarity extends outside of the context of a concert.
You're right about the concert experience. Concerts are mini-cons full of social geeks. Metal concerts are different than other concerts for reasons other than the music, though. People bond at a Billy Joel show too. The people who bond at a Billy Joel show are extremely different than the people who bond at a Lightning Swords of Death show.
The point is that you can take metal people, put them in a different scenario, and they'll hate each other and make trouble, and be stupid. You could do the same with the Billy Joel people. The same exact people will behave differently in different environments. You need to change the environment to get the behavior you want. Getting different people won't make much difference.
Comments
E3 has the same subject matter as PAX. The same people who used to go to E3 are now going to PAX.
How come PAX is completely different from E3 despite having extremely similar load out of attendees, and both having strong industry presence?
The general behavior of the Otakon population has not changed, year after year. Correct. The age of the Otakon attendance has not increased. Therefore, attendees stop coming as they age, and newer young people are coming for the first time. Year after year it's different people coming, but the behavior is very similar.
PAX East had almost entirely different people than PAX West. The high level people were almost all the same exact people who flew over from Seattle, but the attendance was almost all east coast people who had never been to PAX West.
Yet, PAX East and West were so similar, even though the people were so different.
Pete would have you believe it's because Otakon is an anime con and PAX is a gaming con. The fact that not all gaming cons are like PAX, and that not all anime cons are like Otakon, straight up refutes this. What is the common factor? Not geography. Not the geekery in question. It's the programming and the people in charge. The convention dictates its own culture and atmosphere.
And I mean by that is, you've both said your piece, let it go. This thread is getting really cluttered and there is actually a con going on that people might wanna discuss.
Kick the kids out, and you kick out most future generations of fans.
Otakon's problem is that the culture of the con itself kicks the non-kids out...
Plus, Girlfriend has not that much interest in changing his mind, as it is not really important to any of my goals. Pete agrees with me on the substance of what we think will make better CTcon programming, and Pete has no way to impose his all-or-nothing panel substance requirements on anything I care about. Therefore, it is harmless to let him carry on with his grumpy old man opinion that no circle jerk fan activity should ever be allowed.
Let me sum this up. I'm a metal geek too. I'm one of the only metal geeks in the crew, and I've been to a lot of metal shows. I've met a lot of other metal geeks.
Metal geeks are often gaming and/or anime geeks. They're also often other types of geeks. Yet metal geeks of all sorts are more like other metal geeks than they are other geeks, even those geeks of similar persuasion. A metal/anime/gaming geek has more in common with a metal/car geek than they do with an anime/gaming geek.
Obviously, metal is the common linkage. A-duh. But what is it about metal geekdom that binds metal geeks together and overrides other geekdoms?
I'm not a huge metal head. I like me some metals. If I go to a metal concert, I can get all into it just as well. The concert makes you do it. Just like Otakon makes you act a fool and PAX makes you be awesome.
You're right about the concert experience. Concerts are mini-cons full of social geeks. Metal concerts are different than other concerts for reasons other than the music, though. People bond at a Billy Joel show too. The people who bond at a Billy Joel show are extremely different than the people who bond at a Lightning Swords of Death show.