If they let their kid ride the bus, they wait for them at the bus stop and drag them home, insuring constant supervision.
That bothered me immensely when I lived in Poughkeepsie/Poughquag/Fishkill. Every morning, driving to work, I'd see kids sitting in their parents cars at the bus stops waiting for the school bus to arrive, even when the weather was nice.
However, if there is an exodus from the cities, many may find that the one income they couldn't live on in the city, does failry well in a suburban area owing to drastricaly lower costs of living.
Which suburbs are you talking about? You have to go to a rural area before the cost of living drops dramatically. I can't even think of a rural place where one income is sufficient to support a family comfortably. The cost of living in almost any suburb is not appreciably lower than the cost of living in a city. Sure, houses in a city are more expensive, but there's a lot more to cost of living than housing and property taxes.
The exodus from the cities is due primarily to a depressed housing market. I'll wager this wave of outward growth will collapse when the housing market recovers, and I suspect many of these new house purchases will end in foreclosure.
That bothered me immensely when I lived in Poughkeepsie/Poughquag/Fishkill. Every morning, driving to work, I'd see kids sitting in their parents cars at the bus stops waiting for the school bus to arrive, even when the weather was nice.
Am I a horrible person for experiencing near road rage when I have to stop on the opposite side of the road for a school bus that deploys it's red blinking stop sign? This is exacerbated by the fact that the kids in my suburban neighborhood now get direct drop off service to their doors. I've seen buses let a kid out, go 3 or 4 doors down, and let another kid out. At that point, you KNOW they aren't crossing the road so why does my side stop? It's the result of overprotective and vocal parents demanding an illusion of security, so that they can have peace of mind.
At what age is a child old enough to know how to cross the street by themselves, though? I won't even elaborate on my theory that not allowing children to figure out how to cross a road is preventing natural selection...
@ Scott: You argument is that you see kids all over the place; therefore, they are not bored? Really? Really?
@ Pete: Often taxes, housing costs, and services dramatically drop when you move from a city to a town. As soon as you leave city limits, taxes and housing costs drop fairly drastically. On and off for several years Adam and I lived (and even saved) on my one income living in Clifton Park (a suburb of Albany) in three bedroom apartments. If I wanted a three bedroom apartment that allowed dogs in Albany City, I would have to pay double of what I pay for rent now - I know, because I have looked. Even Latham, Colonie, and Delmar are cheaper to live in than in Albany.
@ Scott: You argument is that you see kids all over the place; therefore, they are not bored? Really? Really?
Seeing lots of kids, every day, outside, all the time, having fun. As opposed to the suburbs where the only time you see them outside is at soccer practice.
@ Scott: You argument is that you see kids all over the place; therefore, they are not bored? Really? Really?
Seeing lots of kids, every day, outside, all the time, having fun. As opposed to the suburbs where the only time you see them outside is at soccer practice.
Or in their back yards, or in parks, or on their school grounds, or on the sidewalk (riding bikes, etc.), or in their house reading/working on hobbies/on the internet, or at various sport practices, or in various clubs, or at friends' houses, or at after school jobs, etc. You see less kids in general in suburbs because there are less people in general. What is your argument, Scott, really? Also, what is all this talk with kids only being able to go short distances away from their homes in suburbs. When my Mom moved us out of the city, I was able to have a lot more free reign than she allowed me in the city. Rather than being restricted to my yard or block, I was free to roam the neighborhood and outside of it if I was with trustworthy friend (we are talking between age 7 and 12). After twelve we lived in a rural area and I could go anywhere I wanted whenever I wanted.
Often taxes, housing costs, and services dramatically drop when you move from a city to a town. As soon as you leave city limits, taxes and housing costs drop fairly drastically. On an doff for several years Adam and I lived (and even saved) on my one income living in Clifton Park in three bedroom apartments. If I wanted a three bedroom apartment that allowed dogs in Albany City, I would have to pay double of what I pay for rent now - I know, because I have looked.
Well, rental and home ownership are different beasts. You don't have to worry about school or property taxes at all by renting in Halfmoon/Clifton Park. Likewise, I don't have to worry about those things either, because I rent. I also just found 7 3-bedroom apartments for rent in Albany for under $1,000/month. I have no idea if they allow pets or not, but I do know that a lot of landlords are willing to negotiate, as long as you're not renting from a complex.
I'm trying to find the tax rates for Clifton Park right now, but I do know from talking to coworkers who live there that the home ownership costs are roughly comparable to Albany.
Clifton Park's total annual tax rate is actually higher than Albany's, owing largely to substantially higher school taxes. Of course, homes in Clifton Park also have a higher market value than their tax assessment indicates, so the Equalization Rate is very favorable there.
I'm trying to find the tax rates for Clifton Park right now, but I do know from talking to coworkers who live there that the home ownership costs are roughly comparable to Albany.
Pete, compare buying a two bedroom home in a city with a decent yard and a decent school system and a decent neighborhood with buying a home in a decent suburb. I guarantee you will pay more in the city. Also, those three bedroom apartments may be under 1,000, but how much under, how much are the utilities, do they have a yard, are they in a nice neighborhood, etc.? Price and value are two married issues. In addition, fuel costs, grocery costs, insurance, etc. are often higher in cities. You also have city taxes on top of county and state taxes, and suburban town and village taxes are usually lower than that of the city and/or provide more service per dollar for the citezenry (usually better schools, nicer parks, etc.).
Pete, compare buying a two bedroom home in a city with a decent yard and a decent school system and a decent neighborhood with buying a home in a decent suburb. I guarantee you will pay more in the city.
Could you define "decent?" Would you consider your rental unit to be "decent"? I assume so, as you're living there.
Cost of living comparison A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania should increase to $50,522 in Albany, New York A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania should increase to $56,307 in Clifton Park, New York A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania should increase to $79,336 in New York, New York (biggest price difference Housing) A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania could decrease to $44,517 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (biggest price difference Housing) A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania should increase to $58,612 in Horsham township, Pennsylvania
Interesting.
Wonder what parts of Philadelphia and New York City they are counting because compared to Hatboro they are giant and highly variable.
Pete, compare buying a two bedroom home in a city with a decent yard and a decent school system and a decent neighborhood with buying a home in a decent suburb. I guarantee you will pay more in the city.
Could you define "decent?" Would you consider your rental unit to be "decent"? I assume so, as you're living there.
What are you implying? Also, Pete, as a renter you indirectly effected by taxes as higher taxes equates to owners needing to up their rental fees. This combines with the rental properties being in greater demand than supply in urban areas to create higher rental costs.
Edit: Substitute the word comparable for the word decent and you will get my point. A comparable apartment to mine within the Albany City limits would be a minimum of 500 more a month. I know, I have looked. That scale holds true throughout the hierarchy of rentals.
What are you implying? Also, Pete, as a renter you indirectly effected by taxes as higher taxes equates to owners needing to up their rental fees. This combines with the rental proerties being in greater demand than supply in urban areas to create higher rental costs.
The added cost of renting in the city is made up for the fact that jobs in the city pay way more money. If I took my NYC money and somehow lived in the boonies, the real boonies, I could get a huge spread.
Of course, in the city you have a smaller living space, but you don't need a larger one. The city provides everything either publicy or privately. No need for a gym, get a membership. No need for a backyard, go to any of the zillion parks. No need for a car, garage, or parking spot because you can walk to the grocery store and public transportation or bicycle everywhere else. No need for laundry because there are laundromats within walking distance of every since residence.
My apartment would basically be unlivable if it were located in a suburb. But because it is in the city, everything I'm missing at home is right outside the front door. The money and space considerations balance out. If you live frugally, they tilt in favor of the city because of how much more income you have.
Nothing at all. I'm literally asking you to define "decent," since it's an incredibly subjective term. Do you consider your current living situation to be "decent?" If so, I can look for something comparable in Albany to do a comparison. If there are other things that you would require before considering something "decent," I'd need to know what those are before doing a comparison.
Also, Pete, as a renter you indirectly effected by taxes as higher taxes equates to owners needing to up their rental fees. This combines with the rental properties being in greater demand than supply in urban areas to create higher rental costs.
Yeah, but you're not affected directly in any capacity. Taxes are a concern for homeowners first and foremost, and they don't factor into rental life nearly as much as the actual home value does.
fuel costs, grocery costs
OK, groceries are cheaper in suburban areas? Since when? At least in the Capital District, all the major grocers are chains, and their prices will be very consistent from store to store. Actually, I bet I could pay less for groceries in Albany city than I could in Clifton Park factoring in travel costs. And fuel costs don't vary nearly as much between cities and suburbs as you might think. Again, you have to go well outside of the city limits before you'll really see a significant decrease in fuel, and even then, you have to do a lot more driving in the suburbs than you do in a city. It's a false economy at best.
Anyhow, let's look for a comparable apartment in Albany city. You pay, what, $800/month for your place? Something like that? Do you also have to pay for garbage pickup? Do you know roughly how many square feet your place is?
Scott, you are talking about NYC, not cities in general. Major cities, particulalry those that rank as some of the most expensive places to live in the world, skew this argument dramatically. Also, menial labor in NYC does not pay substantially more than it does in suburban areas, thus the issue of Starbucks employees having to train in an hour in order to work and train back home an hour. Also, while they pay more, unless you make a fuck-ton (and yes, that is a technical term ^_~), then it may not be enough. Adam and I looked into it and in NYC he would only be making about 10,000 more a year in NYC than he would where we are now. We did up the cost of living amounts, consulting several locations and we still came out money behind.
Pete, groceries are more expensive in urban areas if for no other reason than their sales tax is generally higher. Also, while you are doing more driving in suburban areas, you aren't puting on as many city miles and, frequently, your insurance is a lot less.
My point was not that cities suck, just that it is usually more expensive to live in a city than a suburb - and that was a secondary point. My primary point was that kids are equally bored/having fun no matter where you go. The activities available may be different, but to say that city kids don't get bored and suburban kids do, is just silly. All kids get bored. Moreover, depending on kid's interests, they may be more or less bored depending on what their area offers. If they are more into sports, but live in an urban environment, it can be harder for them to get a spot on their school teams as there are more students trying out. If kids are more artistcally minded, then cities offer more museums and art classes. It all just depends on the children's interests and their parent's ability to financially support their interests.
Pete, groceries are more expensive in urban areas if for no other reason than their sales tax is generally higher.
Food is exempt from sales tax in New York. This is not the case everywhere, though.
Also, while you are doing more driving in suburban areas, you aren't puting on as many city miles and, frequently, your insurance is a lot less.
Yes, but unless the difference in highway vs. city mileage is very very large, it's not going to make enough of a difference. A typical vehicle is something like 25 city/30 highway. If you do 30% more driving, even if it's all highway, you still pay more in gas.
EDIT: My point is that it can be more expensive to live in a city, depending on your exact needs and situation, but it is not necessarily the case. Moreover, suburbs often present a false economy because they give you fewer options overall, increased fuel costs, the cost of additional services not being provided by a city, and so on. For young people without families, or even with small families, life in a city is often less expensive than life in a suburb.
EDIT SOME MORE: But kids will be bored anywhere, that's definitely true.
Comments
At what age is a child old enough to know how to cross the street by themselves, though? I won't even elaborate on my theory that not allowing children to figure out how to cross a road is preventing natural selection...
@ Pete: Often taxes, housing costs, and services dramatically drop when you move from a city to a town. As soon as you leave city limits, taxes and housing costs drop fairly drastically. On and off for several years Adam and I lived (and even saved) on my one income living in Clifton Park (a suburb of Albany) in three bedroom apartments. If I wanted a three bedroom apartment that allowed dogs in Albany City, I would have to pay double of what I pay for rent now - I know, because I have looked. Even Latham, Colonie, and Delmar are cheaper to live in than in Albany.
Also, what is all this talk with kids only being able to go short distances away from their homes in suburbs. When my Mom moved us out of the city, I was able to have a lot more free reign than she allowed me in the city. Rather than being restricted to my yard or block, I was free to roam the neighborhood and outside of it if I was with trustworthy friend (we are talking between age 7 and 12). After twelve we lived in a rural area and I could go anywhere I wanted whenever I wanted.
I'm trying to find the tax rates for Clifton Park right now, but I do know from talking to coworkers who live there that the home ownership costs are roughly comparable to Albany.
EDIT: 2009 Tax Rates for the Capital District
Clifton Park's total annual tax rate is actually higher than Albany's, owing largely to substantially higher school taxes. Of course, homes in Clifton Park also have a higher market value than their tax assessment indicates, so the Equalization Rate is very favorable there.
Also, those three bedroom apartments may be under 1,000, but how much under, how much are the utilities, do they have a yard, are they in a nice neighborhood, etc.? Price and value are two married issues.
In addition, fuel costs, grocery costs, insurance, etc. are often higher in cities. You also have city taxes on top of county and state taxes, and suburban town and village taxes are usually lower than that of the city and/or provide more service per dollar for the citezenry (usually better schools, nicer parks, etc.).
A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania should increase to $50,522 in Albany, New York
A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania should increase to $56,307 in Clifton Park, New York
A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania should increase to $79,336 in New York, New York (biggest price difference Housing)
A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania could decrease to $44,517 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (biggest price difference Housing)
A salary of $50,000 in Hatboro, Pennsylvania should increase to $58,612 in Horsham township, Pennsylvania
Interesting.
Wonder what parts of Philadelphia and New York City they are counting because compared to Hatboro they are giant and highly variable.
Also, Pete, as a renter you indirectly effected by taxes as higher taxes equates to owners needing to up their rental fees. This combines with the rental properties being in greater demand than supply in urban areas to create higher rental costs.
Edit: Substitute the word comparable for the word decent and you will get my point. A comparable apartment to mine within the Albany City limits would be a minimum of 500 more a month. I know, I have looked. That scale holds true throughout the hierarchy of rentals.
Of course, in the city you have a smaller living space, but you don't need a larger one. The city provides everything either publicy or privately. No need for a gym, get a membership. No need for a backyard, go to any of the zillion parks. No need for a car, garage, or parking spot because you can walk to the grocery store and public transportation or bicycle everywhere else. No need for laundry because there are laundromats within walking distance of every since residence.
My apartment would basically be unlivable if it were located in a suburb. But because it is in the city, everything I'm missing at home is right outside the front door. The money and space considerations balance out. If you live frugally, they tilt in favor of the city because of how much more income you have.
Anyhow, let's look for a comparable apartment in Albany city. You pay, what, $800/month for your place? Something like that? Do you also have to pay for garbage pickup? Do you know roughly how many square feet your place is?
Also, menial labor in NYC does not pay substantially more than it does in suburban areas, thus the issue of Starbucks employees having to train in an hour in order to work and train back home an hour. Also, while they pay more, unless you make a fuck-ton (and yes, that is a technical term ^_~), then it may not be enough. Adam and I looked into it and in NYC he would only be making about 10,000 more a year in NYC than he would where we are now. We did up the cost of living amounts, consulting several locations and we still came out money behind.
Also, while you are doing more driving in suburban areas, you aren't puting on as many city miles and, frequently, your insurance is a lot less.
My point was not that cities suck, just that it is usually more expensive to live in a city than a suburb - and that was a secondary point. My primary point was that kids are equally bored/having fun no matter where you go. The activities available may be different, but to say that city kids don't get bored and suburban kids do, is just silly. All kids get bored. Moreover, depending on kid's interests, they may be more or less bored depending on what their area offers. If they are more into sports, but live in an urban environment, it can be harder for them to get a spot on their school teams as there are more students trying out. If kids are more artistcally minded, then cities offer more museums and art classes. It all just depends on the children's interests and their parent's ability to financially support their interests.
EDIT: My point is that it can be more expensive to live in a city, depending on your exact needs and situation, but it is not necessarily the case. Moreover, suburbs often present a false economy because they give you fewer options overall, increased fuel costs, the cost of additional services not being provided by a city, and so on. For young people without families, or even with small families, life in a city is often less expensive than life in a suburb.
EDIT SOME MORE: But kids will be bored anywhere, that's definitely true.