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Moneys
Lately there have been a lot of posts where people seem to be suggesting that we are very rich, or that we are spending ludicrously unreasonable amounts of money on things. Let me tell you some things.
When I was in high school, I worked at a dry cleaner part-time after school and Saturday morning. It was not so many hours, and was barely above minimum wage, which as much lower at the time. I also worked at summer camps for a few summers. I was always in the lowest possible normal counselor position. Summer camps pay less than minimum wage, because it isn't hourly. You're at the camp 24/7, but they pay you a flat rate for the whole summer (9 weeks). When I was at RIT, I worked maybe 10 hours a week doing food service, and then office work, again making only a dollar or two above minimum wage.
Despite that, I still bought lots of "fancy" stuff. I bought a GameCube and games the day it came out. I bought a GBA the day it came out. I bought every GBA game I wanted. I bought PC games, like Tribes 2. I bought fancy computers. I ate out relatively often. I put gas in the car. I bought groceries. I bought comics every month. I even often spent my money more stupidly than I do now. I bought three anime series on individual tapes/discs at nearly full price. I even bought a few board games.
I read this article recently, I wish I could find it. This guy didn't have a lot of money, but he was always buying new fancy DSLR cameras and lenses. His friends were asking how he afforded it, so he wrote a post about it. Basically he was smart, looking for deals and selling his old stuff. But the main point of the article was that photography was his primary geekery. He sacrificed convenience and luxury in other areas of his life to satisfy his passion for cameras.
If you don't actually care about something like gaming, then you definitely should not be spending big money on it. Get a $5 computer mouse. Why spend more on something you don't give a shit about? If you do genuinely care about gaming, then you owe it to yourself to get the best experience possible. Obviously you don't want to waste money on something useless, like Monster Cables, but when something is actually superior, go for it.
I had shit jobs that offered hardly any hours per week, and I still had enough money to feed myself and satisfy all of my geek hobbies of technology, video games, tabletop games, comics, and anime with plenty left over for necessities like eating and gas. I wasn't scrimping then either. My computer had a Plextor CD-RW burner, which was the fucking shit, $150 in 1999. I also bought a TNT2 video card the day it came out. Did I mention we were also going to many conventions?
It's true that I wasn't paying many bills at those times. I was either at home, in college, or at summer camp. Even so, I was only working 10 hours. If I had worked 40 hours, I could have easily paid rent, internet, phone, electric and heating bills, and had even more money leftover afterward.
Now, obviously I make a lot more money now. I have a new flat TV, and not Rym's parent's ancient TV. My rent is over double what it used to be. I have an expensive chair, and I gave away the chair I used in college. I definitely have more than I used to have, and it is not taken for granted.
The point I'm trying to make is that it is no more stupid to spend $90 on a mouse than it is to spend $150 on a knife, $1000 on a convention trip, $2000 on a camera, or $80,000 on a car. If the thing you are buying is genuinely better and good (not monster cables), and it is something you actually legitimately care about, then it should be worth it to you to spend what you need to spend to fulfill your geekery. If it's not your geekery, then yes, it's stupid to spend a bunch of money to get something better if you don't give a shit. I don't spend a bunch of money on say, guitars, because it's not my thing. If I had a $100 guitar or a $1000 guitar, it would be no difference to me. That doesn't mean I'm going to tell the guy who bought the $1000 guitar that he is stupid, spoiled and rich, etc. He's just passionate enough about guitars that it's worth it. I also know that the guitar is likely to be actually superior, and probably isn't just overpriced like a Macintosh computer.
GeekNights is about geekery. Geekery is all about caring a lot about things. Non-geeks don't care. If we recommend something here, it's a recommendation for geeks, not a recommendation for normal people. We will tell you what we feel the best choice is for people who care a lot, for geeks. If you're not actually a geek of that particular ilk, then that recommendation probably isn't for you. If you don't care a lot about gaming, then you probably are stupid to spend a lot on a mouse. If you don't care a whole lot about your convention experience, then it probably isn't worth it for you to spend the extra money to make sure you are well rested the entire time. The point is that the better mouse is better, and flying is better. Better is worth it for the things you really care about. And even if you work part time at the dry cleaner, you can afford better for your passion.
When I was in high school, I worked at a dry cleaner part-time after school and Saturday morning. It was not so many hours, and was barely above minimum wage, which as much lower at the time. I also worked at summer camps for a few summers. I was always in the lowest possible normal counselor position. Summer camps pay less than minimum wage, because it isn't hourly. You're at the camp 24/7, but they pay you a flat rate for the whole summer (9 weeks). When I was at RIT, I worked maybe 10 hours a week doing food service, and then office work, again making only a dollar or two above minimum wage.
Despite that, I still bought lots of "fancy" stuff. I bought a GameCube and games the day it came out. I bought a GBA the day it came out. I bought every GBA game I wanted. I bought PC games, like Tribes 2. I bought fancy computers. I ate out relatively often. I put gas in the car. I bought groceries. I bought comics every month. I even often spent my money more stupidly than I do now. I bought three anime series on individual tapes/discs at nearly full price. I even bought a few board games.
I read this article recently, I wish I could find it. This guy didn't have a lot of money, but he was always buying new fancy DSLR cameras and lenses. His friends were asking how he afforded it, so he wrote a post about it. Basically he was smart, looking for deals and selling his old stuff. But the main point of the article was that photography was his primary geekery. He sacrificed convenience and luxury in other areas of his life to satisfy his passion for cameras.
If you don't actually care about something like gaming, then you definitely should not be spending big money on it. Get a $5 computer mouse. Why spend more on something you don't give a shit about? If you do genuinely care about gaming, then you owe it to yourself to get the best experience possible. Obviously you don't want to waste money on something useless, like Monster Cables, but when something is actually superior, go for it.
I had shit jobs that offered hardly any hours per week, and I still had enough money to feed myself and satisfy all of my geek hobbies of technology, video games, tabletop games, comics, and anime with plenty left over for necessities like eating and gas. I wasn't scrimping then either. My computer had a Plextor CD-RW burner, which was the fucking shit, $150 in 1999. I also bought a TNT2 video card the day it came out. Did I mention we were also going to many conventions?
It's true that I wasn't paying many bills at those times. I was either at home, in college, or at summer camp. Even so, I was only working 10 hours. If I had worked 40 hours, I could have easily paid rent, internet, phone, electric and heating bills, and had even more money leftover afterward.
Now, obviously I make a lot more money now. I have a new flat TV, and not Rym's parent's ancient TV. My rent is over double what it used to be. I have an expensive chair, and I gave away the chair I used in college. I definitely have more than I used to have, and it is not taken for granted.
The point I'm trying to make is that it is no more stupid to spend $90 on a mouse than it is to spend $150 on a knife, $1000 on a convention trip, $2000 on a camera, or $80,000 on a car. If the thing you are buying is genuinely better and good (not monster cables), and it is something you actually legitimately care about, then it should be worth it to you to spend what you need to spend to fulfill your geekery. If it's not your geekery, then yes, it's stupid to spend a bunch of money to get something better if you don't give a shit. I don't spend a bunch of money on say, guitars, because it's not my thing. If I had a $100 guitar or a $1000 guitar, it would be no difference to me. That doesn't mean I'm going to tell the guy who bought the $1000 guitar that he is stupid, spoiled and rich, etc. He's just passionate enough about guitars that it's worth it. I also know that the guitar is likely to be actually superior, and probably isn't just overpriced like a Macintosh computer.
GeekNights is about geekery. Geekery is all about caring a lot about things. Non-geeks don't care. If we recommend something here, it's a recommendation for geeks, not a recommendation for normal people. We will tell you what we feel the best choice is for people who care a lot, for geeks. If you're not actually a geek of that particular ilk, then that recommendation probably isn't for you. If you don't care a lot about gaming, then you probably are stupid to spend a lot on a mouse. If you don't care a whole lot about your convention experience, then it probably isn't worth it for you to spend the extra money to make sure you are well rested the entire time. The point is that the better mouse is better, and flying is better. Better is worth it for the things you really care about. And even if you work part time at the dry cleaner, you can afford better for your passion.
Comments
I'd also like to know any moneys-related history with Rym, if he's willing to share it.
I'm not going to skimp on, say, A set of good tyres, or a good knife(Shit, my EDC knives are a $120 dollar Benchmade Folder and an S&W HRT Badge knife that I picked up for about 40 bucks), or good booze and food - because I'm willing to pay for quality when it's necessary.
Yeah, For say, Omnutia, A little 20-30 dollar cheapie blade will do fine, he won't use it that often, but it's handy when he does - But my EDC blade is carried every single day, and is battered constantly, and used hard - a quality knife will survive that kind of treatment, when a 20 dollar cheapie would die immediately.
Also, as Scott(and rym) have, I've done the hard graft, I've moved furniture, lugged antiques, been a bartender, a painter, a mechanic, so on. I don't have soft hands, Shit, you can even figure out some of the things I like or have done from my hands, for example, on my right index finger, I've got a callus from so much time on the trigger, and a scar on my left hand middle finger, where I damn near took the end of my finger off with a rotary cutter.
It's like this. You don't take it with you when you die, and shit, most of you don't even have childeren to worry about inheritances yet. If you need something, go with the better stuff, that costs more, because often, it will last you longer, and you'll spend less on it long-term. You buy a set of Snap-on tools, then you end up spending less than if you bought some cheap knock-offs from supercheap auto, and they'll wear out less so that you can do better work with them for longer, on top of that they won't break, so you're not replacing them all the time like the supercheap auto tools.
Quality is worth paying for, just as much is there is a difference between cheap and inexpensive.
Also I question the logic of saving for a retardedly fast car. Going from no experience with a fast car to a 500 hp supercar is a recipe for getting dead in a hurry. You said you make recommendations for geeks, well cars are my geekery. Frankly going from your currently skill level to an Evo is pushing it, you really want to cut your teeth on something a bit tamer.
I'm not judging the worth of a human being based upon how much they are into something. I'm just judging their level of geekery. If you don't care enough about something, you're not a bad person, you're just not a geek in that particular area. Making more people into geeks, especially geeks with multiple geekeries, is definitely our primary mission.
My level of dedication to geekery was high, however, and I sacrificed many things for anime, music, and gaming. (I bought Tribes 2 instead of textbooks one quarter, a decision for which I have not one glimmer of regret). I worked at factories, in construction, in catering, office jobs, technical jobs, making just enough money to almost eat.
At my lowest point, with no money, a barely working car, and mounting student debt, I drove to Poughkeepsie with most of what I owned in the trunk to work a co-op at IBM. I had to get an advance on my salary just to cover my first month's rent. I returned from this decidedly middle-class income-wise. After finishing at RIT and working at IBM for a while longer, I got myself a better job with better pay (~$10k raise). I quit that one after not too long to make more than double where I am now. I'm currently decently into six figures, not counting bonuses, and am technically in the upper percentile of "upper middle class." I now pay more in taxes than I earned at my first real job.
The result is a wide scope of understanding in terms of economics. No matter how poor or rich I was, I wanted for nothing, and boredom was always a luxury. You can be crazily dedicated to a geekery and have no money to back it up. Money just makes things easier, and lets you skip some of the more tedious parts of life. (While I have epic tales of 1000 mile road trips, I now comfortably fly everywhere). Had I been wealthier sooner, I would have missed many adventures. Had I been poorer later, I would have missed a similar number of different sorts of adventures. I'm glad I've experienced both, but in my advancing years, I am happy for the luxuries I can now afford now, and I would choose to continue my wealthy existence even at the expense of certain kinds of adventure.
Before I started brewing beer, I was a fan of beer for 5 years. I got heavily into tasting and trying different things. I studied beer. I read forums, articles, books, and other material for a year before I even tried brewing anything. I took that burning passion for beer, and I directed it into useful areas so that I could make my talents grow.
A lot of people who are passionate about beer will dive right into all-grain brewing and blow $1000 on a needlessly expensive single-tier automated brewing system. They're geeks too, but they couldn't control their passion, and it causes them to burn out.
So, while I encourage Scott's idea of embracing that passion and really investing your resources in only those things, it's a good idea to do so slowly, so you don't wind up wasting your precious time and money.
He is absolutely right when it comes to spending resources on your passion, though. Sure, with enough accessory knowledge, you can avoid getting ripped off in some areas. I don't buy needlessly fancy brewing equipment because I know exactly what it takes to get the job done properly. At the same time, you can't cut corners if you want to get it done right.
If you're into say, golf, it's easy to grow from cheap clubs, to slightly more expensive clubs, to more expensive as time goes on. With something big like a car or bike, it's much more difficult to graduate. Even the cheapest ones are so expensive, and they decline in value so quickly. You'll outgrow your learner so fast, and then be stuck unable to afford the upper level. Therefore, if you're serious, you just gotta go for it. Get a serious bike or car from the get go. You obviously don't need to shoot for the very top with a Ferrari or some shit, but you gotta get something that is at least a step or two up from the bottom. Obviously you'll have to just learn very carefully. A fast bike/car can go slow if you tell it to.
Same goes for computers actually. If you spend $300 on a netbook, you'll be really limited once you gets past the beginning stages. Then when you need a $1000 to grow, you'll be $300 further away from it with only a useless netbook to show for it.
The one mistake you have to avoid, which is a peril in all geekeries, is buying and not using. My friend's dad bought a bowling ball and shoes, thinking he would really get into it. He uses them maybe once or twice a year, if that. I was smart, I bought a harmonica for $5 to prove whether or not I had it in me to seriously practice a musical instrument. I didn't, and as a result I didn't waste money on a guitar I would never play. I did waste money on a Guitar Hero, though, but who didn't?
See, different geeks may care passionately about different aspects of a geekery. Scott, you are saying that to be a "true" car geek that one must value certain features. A person could be a car geek, but care more about a certain aspect of a car than another. Also, there are casual geeks, and being a casual geek is fine. You stated that you are encouraging people to be more "advanced", but at the same time saying you don't care if they are casual geeks or not. Investing gobs of time into one geekery or spreading it out over several is perfectly fine. To push people to explore what genuinely makes them happy is great. To dictate what level of interest they should have or what specific aspects of any one geekery they should value is just silly.
For example you could be a computer geek and like to play with older tech or at least try and get the best price/power ratio for a particular budget. (this is an area I really enjoy, trying to figure out on a budget what would be the best parts for a situation)
I'm one lucky motherfucker.
And Frankly, if you put me in a mean bitch like the GT-R, even I would be somewhat reticent about driving it hard till I really had my shit down with it, because it's just a ludicrous fucking car. It's a slavering, rabid, 500BHP 4WD beast, and if you make the wrong move, it'll chew you up and use your bones to pick it's teeth. It is just way, way too much car for Scott at this point. I mean, shit, look at Peter Brock - he spend his life driving 300 kilometer per hour V8 supercars - a better driver than I am - and died in a car that was well within his capabilities, because he just pushed to too hard. I'm a better driver than Scott and at a more achievable level of experience, and I've had my times where I'm watching the skygroundskygroundskygroundskyground go by saying "Well, fuck, I went just a bit too hard there."
Yes, I agree with him absolutely about the money issue - but that's not a money issue, that's an issue of capability, and that is why I questioned it in the car enthusiast thread. That'd be like taking a few boxing lessons, and then challenging Mike Tyson to a fight, or taking a few self defence classes, and getting into the ring with Roycie Gracie. You have the money, but if you don't have the ability, well, you're just a paraplegic man buying running shoes, they're nice shoes, but if you try to really use them, you're going to fuck yourself up, and when you're wrapping your impending monumental fuckup in a ton-half of metal, then you're also on the fast track to really ruin someone else's day, too.
I mean, sure, you can say you're committed, you can say you're enthusiastic, and you want the best you can buy - but there is a fine line between committed and ludicrous, and when it comes to cars, an even finer line between ludicrous and dead.
EDITS FROM HERE - Yes, but he's doing it the right way, even if inadvertently, and unfortunately with sadness attached. First bike I rode was a thousand CC KTM super duke. First thing I did? Flipped it over on top of myself and broke three ribs. A year or two later, I made my best speed I've made on anything, doing 306 KPH on a delimited Hyabusa up in Alice Springs. You can't just leap into something like that. You're more mechanical than I am, but I think I'm more of a driver. We're pretty much complementary but opposing, on that score.
TL:DR - Long chatter about cars, and the main point being "Just because you can, and want to, doesn't always mean you should."