More often than not men, as well as women, are equally stereotyped into specific roles.
Yeah, you know, this is a thing a lot of people say. Here's the issue.
Stereotypical male roles for video games: big, strong, shoots guns, solves all the problems (ex: Kratos, Marcus Phoenix)
Stereotypical female roles for video games: has tits, gets kidnapped (ex: Princess Peach)
A lot of people say "Wahhh, but Marcus Phoenix is a stereotype too!" without recognizing that Marcus Phoenix is a male fantasy stereotype, just like like many/most female characters in games. Marcus Phoenix is not a stereotype made to appeal to women, he's made to appeal to dudes. And that games are populated mostly by dudes like Marcus Phoenix is ALSO an issue, but it's not an issue for the reasons that the people who use him as a counterexample intend.
Also I just remembered that I think the character's name is actually Marcus Fenix, but I decided I'd rather type out an additional sentence than go back and edit all the times I typed his name.
So are you saying that people of the world don't play these Japanese games? There are many American made games she will more than likely include in her videos. The ones she showed in her Kickstarter were just examples and more than likely more iconic and well known vs other games. What makes you say she's not marketing to Japan? All of her videos will be up on You Tube or her website for free. Maybe not in the Japanese language, but for everyone to watch.
If there were a Kickstarter for this, but for males, I guarantee you that they wouldn't even get 0.00000001% of the sexist, horrible, bullshit, and flack that Anita Sarkeesian received from the internets.
I think one of the points of this Kickstarter is to help educate people and many of the wrong things that are going on in the video game industry in regards to female characters.
Yeah, if the male characters were stereotypes to appeal to girls and put pressure on guys to look a certain way they would all be androgynous bishounen types.
Prepetutating stereotypes in discussion of stereotypes, do I win a yo dawg prize?
True, but in a somewhat similar POV games like Gears of War are sterotypical to men because it is for men. A lot of stuff still stereotypes men for women, I notice this a lot in anime. It's sort of a civil rights movement of the video game industry considering that video games were often confined to men for a long time. I can appreciate such a desire for change, I mostly have issue with the idea of her scope. Had she expanded her scope and looked at the bigger picture I feel like there would have been less death threats.
Also Rochelle I'm not saying that Americans don't play these games, of course they do. But they aren't making them. As with anime I tend to notice a lot more steretypical behavior from Japanese products than American products. True there is still a lot of cliches in American media but it seems marketed more toward different sexes. There is shit like The Expendables that is all fuck yeah blow shit up big guns one liners, but then there is shit exactly like that for women where its like love story The Notebook where it's helpless romantic perfect guy.
Once producers start accepting more girl gamers it more than likely will just fall into the same routine that movies and television have gone within America. Thus my issue is that she is explaining something as if it were some other issue than what the actual issue is.
. Had she expanded her scope and looked at the bigger picture I feel like there would have been less death threats.
This statement is just so wrong. The fact that there were death threats, period is what is wrong with this picture. The fact that a douche bag made a video game to beat her up is exactly what is wrong.
It would be fair to portray all of the tropes of both male and females, but there is way more hatred against women, which is why she chose to do this Kickstarter.
Producers better start accepting more girl gamers because 47% of gamers are women.
Especially when you're telling gamers that they're being misogynistic and harmful towards women, because they hate being informed that they're not perfectly tolerant saints.
MATATAT, "this is the Internet" is a terrible fucking excuse for death threats. Nobody should "have to expect" them at any time.
MATATAT, "this is the Internet" is a terrible fucking excuse for death threats. Nobody should "have to expect" them at any time.
You'd think so but it's not the reality, and a completely different argument. It's no different offline either there will people that will take huge offense when their positions are challenged and some people respond with aggression. It's just more pervasive on the Internet. I'm not rationalizing that sort of aggression, but anyone making a charged statement should be prepared for some unnecessary aggression. Not all people are rational believe it or not.
Also Rochelle I'm not saying that Americans don't play these games, of course they do. But they aren't making them.
Video games in her video that are American made:
Arkham City Guitar Hero Tomb Raider: Underworld Earthworm Jim
There are possibly more, but those are the ones I recognized or did quick Google searches. So yeah, you're wrong.
They're not making Japanese games. Yeah there are issues with American games too but I notice more Japanese companies creating games to appeal to both genders while still maintaining the tropes of women within video games. Batman is not a very good argument because you would have to change the source material which sets a lot of the ground for the games character design. Guitar Hero is debatable considering most people don't give a fuck what they look like. Tomb Raider makes sense but that's been argued so much. And how does Earthworm Jim factor into this? I don't remember anything sexist about that game.
What's your point? Are you arguing that Japanese video games are more sexist than American video games? Because I think, looking at the fraction of games with females being full characters instead of just objectified and stereotyped, I think Japan may come out on top.
Wow. I don't even know where to begin on how you keep changing what you're saying. First you said the games Anita had in her video were made by Japanese. Then I proved you wrong. Then you state they're not making Japanese games. What the hell?
Perhaps you need to watch these videos when they are done, so you can get some sort of perspective on what she's trying to convey. I'm done talking about this to you.
I think he's actually complaining that Anita seems to be treating sexism in video games as a primarily American phenomenon, but I think given more material we'll find that that isn't true. It's not a problem with Americans, it's a problem with gamers.
Sorry, but as a child of the 80s, I'm a big fan of the chain maille bikini.
Do you know how COLD Chain Mail is? Sure if you are under lights and have many people in the room it might get to room temperature but sorry it is too chilly to wear chain metal indoors.
Sorry, but as a child of the 80s, I'm a big fan of the chain maille bikini.
Do you know how COLD Chain Mail is? Sure if you are under lights and have many people in the room it might get to room temperature but sorry it is too chilly to wear chain metal indoors.
I also think it's important to mention that sexy dress is not mutually exclusive with female (or male) empowerment, but that's probably obvious to most people on this forum.
And I know that the issue with portrayal in games goes beyond wardrobe. The problem is that some vocal people don't seem to get that.
I'm not sure the audience is there, though. It might not sell games.
The dress code at my office doesn't explicitly prevent me from wearing a skirt. I'm considering it for the summer. I imagine it's cooler than my slacks.
I'm not changing anything I say! Let me be more clear on what exactly my issue is.
Americans create cliche sexist stuff. But a large majority of the games that Americans make that have macho fuck yeah guys kickin ass and damsels in distress are very specifically pointed at men. Things like Gears of War are basically The Expendables the video game. There isn't really any similar game within the female realm of gaming within America but as I said American producers have sort of this notion that games are for guys because it is somewhat deep rooted in the history of American video games. Japanese people on the other hand tend to try and make games that appeal to everyone, especially Nintendo, yet they still carry these same tropes of video gaming. What I'm trying to explain to you is that my issue with this is that within all realms of American media there is always the girls side and the guys side. Girls don't really want to play guy games and guys don't really want to play girl games. Same with movies. They aren't designed to really be correct in terms of reality and never will be. My girlfriend has no desire to watch me play any sort of shootemup game and she realizes that it has stupid stuff that guys are only into. Conversely she watches all these dumb female drama show that I'm just stare at confused.
Japanese games tend to create these games for both sexes and still they retain the sort of hot helpless blonde cliche that are oft seen in games. Women are going to get more exposure to those sort of games because they appeal to both sexes. The other issue is that if she is going to discuss this with english gamers she may need to discuss it in a different fashion for Japanese gamers, who have a different culture than our own. Also I'm no expert on Japanese culture but I do understand from some experience that they view things much differently than Americans. One being that nakedness is not as big an issue to their culture as it is over here, etc.
I'm sorry, but are you using "these games are made for a male audience" to excuse their sexism and objectification of women!? Get. The Fuck. Off. My. Internet.
EDIT: Give me a few minutes to cool off and I'll make a sentence-by-sentence explanation of why everything you just wrote is bullshit.
I'm sorry, but are you using "these games are made for a male audience" to excuse their sexism and objectification of women!? Get the fuck off my internet.
It's OK for fantasy to exist. Even fantasy that you are personally offended by.
I'm sorry, but are you using "these games are made for a male audience" to excuse their sexism and objectification of women!? Get. The Fuck. Off. My. Internet.
EDIT: Give me a few minutes to cool off and I'll make a sentence-by-sentence explanation of why everything you just wrote is bullshit.
The same thing exists for females too, I'm not excusing anything so don't put words in my mouth. I'm just saying both sexes have things marketed towards them and they both contain stereotypes.
I'm sorry, but are you using "these games are made for a male audience" to excuse their sexism and objectification of women!? Get the fuck off my internet.
It's OK for fantasy to exist. Even fantasy that you are personally offended by.
Not when those fantasies encourage the people who play them to call the girls they play with bitches and whores, and to treat women as sex objects. Not when they teach young men to bully and harass their peers because they don't conform to some bullshit machismo ideal.
It may be legal speech, but I will rage and rail and try to stamp those fantasies out of existence with my dying fucking breath. And I think humanity will be better off for it.
Those fantasties are allowed to exist, and we're allowed to point out how fucked they are and demand better from the industry and it's fans. Free speech cuts both ways.
I'm sorry, but are you using "these games are made for a male audience" to excuse their sexism and objectification of women!? Get the fuck off my internet.
It's OK for fantasy to exist. Even fantasy that you are personally offended by.
Not when those fantasies encourage the people who play them to call the girls they play with bitches and whores, and to treat women as sex objects. Not when they teach young men to bully and harass their peers because they don't conform to some bullshit machismo ideal.
It may be legal speech, but I will rage and rail and try to stamp those fantasies out of existence with my dying fucking breath. And I think humanity will be better off for it.
That is sort of a different tier of psychology that is more cultural than media related.
That is sort of a different tier of psychology that is more cultural than media related.
Not really. Media reflects culture, but it also reinforces it. Pointing out how sexist and fucked-up our media is, and demanding something better, is one of the only ways to combat those cultural memes.
It's not a one to one relationship. I was born in the seventies and inundated with all sorts of sexist media. I'm far from a misogynist. If you're assigning entertainment media a primary teaching role in society, we've got far worse problems than sexism.
That is sort of a different tier of psychology that is more cultural than media related.
Not really. Media reflects culture, but it also reinforces it. Pointing out how sexist and fucked-up our media is, and demanding something better, is one of the only ways to combat those cultural memes.
It could be, but you chop off the top of a weed and it still grows back. Above providing an informative view of the problem she hasn't really said anything about a solution other than identifying the problem. I guess that's what is yet to be determined.
Comments
Stereotypical male roles for video games: big, strong, shoots guns, solves all the problems (ex: Kratos, Marcus Phoenix)
Stereotypical female roles for video games: has tits, gets kidnapped (ex: Princess Peach)
A lot of people say "Wahhh, but Marcus Phoenix is a stereotype too!" without recognizing that Marcus Phoenix is a male fantasy stereotype, just like like many/most female characters in games. Marcus Phoenix is not a stereotype made to appeal to women, he's made to appeal to dudes. And that games are populated mostly by dudes like Marcus Phoenix is ALSO an issue, but it's not an issue for the reasons that the people who use him as a counterexample intend.
Also I just remembered that I think the character's name is actually Marcus Fenix, but I decided I'd rather type out an additional sentence than go back and edit all the times I typed his name.
If there were a Kickstarter for this, but for males, I guarantee you that they wouldn't even get 0.00000001% of the sexist, horrible, bullshit, and flack that Anita Sarkeesian received from the internets.
I think one of the points of this Kickstarter is to help educate people and many of the wrong things that are going on in the video game industry in regards to female characters.
Prepetutating stereotypes in discussion of stereotypes, do I win a yo dawg prize?
Also Rochelle I'm not saying that Americans don't play these games, of course they do. But they aren't making them. As with anime I tend to notice a lot more steretypical behavior from Japanese products than American products. True there is still a lot of cliches in American media but it seems marketed more toward different sexes. There is shit like The Expendables that is all fuck yeah blow shit up big guns one liners, but then there is shit exactly like that for women where its like love story The Notebook where it's helpless romantic perfect guy.
Once producers start accepting more girl gamers it more than likely will just fall into the same routine that movies and television have gone within America. Thus my issue is that she is explaining something as if it were some other issue than what the actual issue is.
It would be fair to portray all of the tropes of both male and females, but there is way more hatred against women, which is why she chose to do this Kickstarter.
Producers better start accepting more girl gamers because 47% of gamers are women.
Also, if you want to back something because you feel males are misrepresented in video games, back this: An analysis of male roles and misandry present in modern video game media. All of their proceeds are going to charity for both men and women. That's pretty damn awesome.
MATATAT, "this is the Internet" is a terrible fucking excuse for death threats. Nobody should "have to expect" them at any time.
Arkham City
Guitar Hero
Tomb Raider: Underworld
Earthworm Jim
There are possibly more, but those are the ones I recognized or did quick Google searches. So yeah, you're wrong.
Perhaps you need to watch these videos when they are done, so you can get some sort of perspective on what she's trying to convey. I'm done talking about this to you.
And I know that the issue with portrayal in games goes beyond wardrobe. The problem is that some vocal people don't seem to get that.
I'm not sure the audience is there, though. It might not sell games.
The dress code at my office doesn't explicitly prevent me from wearing a skirt. I'm considering it for the summer. I imagine it's cooler than my slacks.
Americans create cliche sexist stuff. But a large majority of the games that Americans make that have macho fuck yeah guys kickin ass and damsels in distress are very specifically pointed at men. Things like Gears of War are basically The Expendables the video game. There isn't really any similar game within the female realm of gaming within America but as I said American producers have sort of this notion that games are for guys because it is somewhat deep rooted in the history of American video games. Japanese people on the other hand tend to try and make games that appeal to everyone, especially Nintendo, yet they still carry these same tropes of video gaming. What I'm trying to explain to you is that my issue with this is that within all realms of American media there is always the girls side and the guys side. Girls don't really want to play guy games and guys don't really want to play girl games. Same with movies. They aren't designed to really be correct in terms of reality and never will be. My girlfriend has no desire to watch me play any sort of shootemup game and she realizes that it has stupid stuff that guys are only into. Conversely she watches all these dumb female drama show that I'm just stare at confused.
Japanese games tend to create these games for both sexes and still they retain the sort of hot helpless blonde cliche that are oft seen in games. Women are going to get more exposure to those sort of games because they appeal to both sexes. The other issue is that if she is going to discuss this with english gamers she may need to discuss it in a different fashion for Japanese gamers, who have a different culture than our own. Also I'm no expert on Japanese culture but I do understand from some experience that they view things much differently than Americans. One being that nakedness is not as big an issue to their culture as it is over here, etc.
EDIT: Give me a few minutes to cool off and I'll make a sentence-by-sentence explanation of why everything you just wrote is bullshit.
It may be legal speech, but I will rage and rail and try to stamp those fantasies out of existence with my dying fucking breath. And I think humanity will be better off for it.