Well, I wouldn't trust the government to draw the line in the sand, but I think there's a point on the gradient where you pass "thriller" and enter "torture porn". I don't see any reason in the world for torture porn to exist outside of slippery slope arguments.
Torture porn is just violence and gore. I think Saw is despicable, but it is neither racist, sexist, or prejudiced in any way to my knowledge.
It may be trite and useless, but Saw has done no damage like Sexism and Racism in media.
You don't think turning brutal violence into entertainment is just as damaging to societal norms as sexism or racism?
Whoa.
There's an entire culture of "nuke 'em all, let God sort 'em out, glass parking lot, hoo-rah" prevalent in the US that sure isn't helped by violence being normalized in the media. If you're going to condemn one it's hypocrisy not to condemn the other.
Saw is not comparable to people who justify genocide. They are not similar.
Saw includes people maiming themselves.
Genocide is when country's nuke each other.
The people, the bizarre people, who like Saw...They don't want to kill everyone. They have a Violence Fetish. They aren't people who justify killing lots of others for the sake of solving problems.
Torture porn is just violence and gore. I think Saw is despicable, but it is neither racist, sexist, or prejudiced in any way to my knowledge.
It may be trite and useless, but Saw has done no damage like Sexism and Racism in media.
You don't think turning brutal violence into entertainment is just as damaging to societal norms as sexism or racism?
Whoa.
There's an entire culture of "nuke 'em all, let God sort 'em out, glass parking lot, hoo-rah" prevalent in the US that sure isn't helped by violence being normalized in the media. If you're going to condemn one it's hypocrisy not to condemn the other.
Hence the parts where you were just defending the rights of the media to be sexist and use stereotypes. Good job.
If you're going to argue (like Linkigi seems to be) that depicting women as maidens in distress leads to them being called whores, sluts, and bitches in real life, then it's fair game to say that violence porn promotes genocide.
Anyhow, what people articulate (genocidal slogans) and what they actually support (war on thin or no justification) are different but still both supported by violent media as much as misogyny is promoted by sexist media.
Violence fetish, gun fetish, glorification of the military, are pretty close neighbors in my book.
The torture culture generated by movies like Saw is probably the reason GitMo's still open. The whole culture is very apathetic towards the issue because of how the media we consume glorifies it. EDIT: super ninja'd. I'm not sure if I'm relevant any more.
If you're going to argue (like Linkigi seems to be) that depicting women as maidens in distress leads to them being called whores, sluts, and bitches in real life, then it's fair game to say that violence porn promotes genocide.
Not really sure where you're drawing that conclusion from.
Torture porn is just violence and gore. I think Saw is despicable, but it is neither racist, sexist, or prejudiced in any way to my knowledge.
It may be trite and useless, but Saw has done no damage like Sexism and Racism in media.
You don't think turning brutal violence into entertainment is just as damaging to societal norms as sexism or racism?
Whoa.
There's an entire culture of "nuke 'em all, let God sort 'em out, glass parking lot, hoo-rah" prevalent in the US that sure isn't helped by violence being normalized in the media. If you're going to condemn one it's hypocrisy not to condemn the other.
Hence the parts where you were just defending the rights of the media to be sexist and use stereotypes. Good job.
It's a spectrum. Reducing women to sex objects a la every National Lampoon movie ever? Probably a little damaging. Mario rescuing Princess Toadstool from Bowser over and again? Not so much.
Not when those fantasies encourage the people who play them to call the girls they play with bitches and whores, and to treat women as sex objects. Not when they teach young men to bully and harass their peers because they don't conform to some bullshit machismo ideal.
Yeah they can compare the DNA in the undies now, so if there's a third party's DNA then that can confirm suspicions. But at $600 total for every step of the process, can't you just have a talk about your mistrust?
What if someone else folds their laundry?
Apparently tough shit, just tells you if the DNA matches to the samples you've provided.
You're conflating a pair of problems. The "maidens in distress" problem is that female characters tend to have significantly reduced agency in games. The problem that encourages that kind of name calling is the way that male characters treat and especially the way they talk about female characters, particularly in "machismo-heavy" games like Gears of War, or games where you play an antihero like Grand Theft Auto. There you get a prevalence of gendered insults and casual references to rape.
Yeah they can compare the DNA in the undies now, so if there's a third party's DNA then that can confirm suspicions. But at $600 total for every step of the process, can't you just have a talk about your mistrust?
What if someone else folds their laundry?
Apparently tough shit, just tells you if the DNA matches to the samples you've provided.
I'm pretty confident that they're testing the DNA present in any, *ahem*, emissions. So casual contact would not be enough to flub the test.
You're conflating a pair of problems. The "maidens in distress" problem is that female characters tend to have significantly reduced agency in games. The problem that encourages that kind of name calling is the way that male characters treat and especially the way they talk about female characters, particularly in "machismo-heavy" games like Gears of War, or games where you play an antihero like Grand Theft Auto. There you get a prevalence of gendered insults and casual references to rape.
You get casual references to all sorts of brutal nonsense in games, though. If anything, Saint's Row is a progressive tool. It mocks the everloving shit out of that culture.
I do like that aspect of Saints Row, everything you think they glorify in that game is mocked to the Nth degree and you are nothing more then someone who just like blowing shit up.
You're conflating a pair of problems. The "maidens in distress" problem is that female characters tend to have significantly reduced agency in games. The problem that encourages that kind of name calling is the way that male characters treat and especially the way they talk about female characters, particularly in "machismo-heavy" games like Gears of War, or games where you play an antihero like Grand Theft Auto. There you get a prevalence of gendered insults and casual references to rape.
You get casual references to all sorts of brutal nonsense in games, though. If anything, Saint's Row is a progressive tool. It mocks the everloving shit out of that culture.
You're conflating a pair of problems. The "maidens in distress" problem is that female characters tend to have significantly reduced agency in games. The problem that encourages that kind of name calling is the way that male characters treat and especially the way they talk about female characters, particularly in "machismo-heavy" games like Gears of War, or games where you play an antihero like Grand Theft Auto. There you get a prevalence of gendered insults and casual references to rape.
You get casual references to all sorts of brutal nonsense in games, though. If anything, Saint's Row is a progressive tool. It mocks the everloving shit out of that culture.
Indeed, Saint's Row is ridiculous.
What do you mean by "brutal nonsense"?
Just about any time a salty, tough guy character refers to women in a misogynistic way, it's nonsense. In fact, I don't think I've seen a non-satirical example in years. The damsel in distress trope played straight? ALL THE TIME. The "women are conniving untrustworthy bitches" schtick? Always played off as coming from the rough-around-the-edges, bullshit-spouting, can-safely-be-ignored-because-he's-a-dumbass (but we love/and we hate) him character. Do you have counter examples?
I see the "Saint's Row" method far more than I see anything else.
Is depicting misogyny in media necessarily synonymous with supporting misogynistic viewpoints? In that case, Schindler's List is a HORRIBLE movie, as it promotes genocidal holocaust!
This is of course just me, but I've never conflated the "damsel in distress' with "women can't protect themselves." Yes there is reduced agency, but looking into it its usually due to the force distressing them having more raw physical or magical power than they do. Referring back to Princess Peach and Bowser, even Mario usually can't match him for raw physical strength (his general ability to chuck the Koopa by holding his tail notwithstanding), so Bowser just up and grabbing Peach isn't out of the realm of possibility, even if Peach had a six pack under that dress.
I think the general portrayal is of course just to continue the belief in machismo and that women need to be protected, as the DID situation has been done well and shown at times that even with reduced agency the damsel can still help herself. Look at My Little Pony. Up until the point where she freed Shining Armor from the sway of Chrysalis I'd consider Princess Cadence as a damsel in distress. did she escape from the mines? Yep. Could she affect the villain's overall plan? Not so much.
As always, it is how you look at things and how the designer presented them.
OK well I haven't played the game (I played most of the first one), but from the article it sounds like the sexist, misogynistic lines are being uttered entirely by thugs, criminals, and general undesirables. Have you ever had a blue collar job? Ever talked to a hot dog vendor for more than 5 minutes? How is this glorification and not just true-to-life depiction? Is one automatically the other, in your view? I'm not understanding.
The author makes references to Batman tossing a VILLAIN aside when she refuses to move and tries to call THAT sexist, but that's pretty weak sauce, man.
Now, Catwoman making weird sexual puns immediately after being rescued from peril? Maybe that's a little weird. Without seeing it I don't know. People say weird shit when they're nervous. Is it nervous banter or weirdly inappropriate sexualization? Can't tell from this distance so I can't argue it.
This came up on G+, and I drew a conclusion that I think is relevant.
The problem, in essence, lies with booth babes.
Let's think about this: fantasy is fantasy. If it stays in your head and doesn't have an outlet in the "real world," then there's really no problem. So what if someone makes a game with scantily-clad women? Does that mean that I will necessarily devalue women? No! Maybe I just want to look at some pixel tits.
However, the game industry capitalizes on fantasy by providing a bridge between fantasy and reality: booth babes. The creation of a real-world bridge between the world of video games and the real world creates the avenue by which geeks can project these ridiculous and misogynistic fantasies onto real people. And once that link is established, that projection can happen on anyone.
So, because marketing executives have decided to capitalize on male fantasies, those fantasies are being projected onto the real world. It allows us to dehumanize people, and treat them as playthings - objects of entertainment.
"Booth babes" are just the most obvious example of this. The real problem is when members of your peer group exhibit those behaviors. Cosplay can even be a reflection of that - by dressing up and appealing to the desires of some people to have fantasy made into reality, you create that bridge.
The question is: can we have the bridge and not the ensuing crapflood? I don't know, but we don't seem to be very good about it.
Does anybody really take booth babes seriously either?
Maybe I'm walking around with a certain context in my head that literally NO ONE else has, but I see them as total schtick, taken very lightly, with no impact whatsoever on how I view women in general.
Just like I know Hooters is a goof. It's a total goof. Read the menu some time. They know it. I know it. A few clueless rednecks don't know it.
Honestly Linkigi, I think you trying to argue this with video games is kinda bullshit. Never in my life of playing video games and hanging out with people who play video games have I ever met anybody that was influenced by the themes in a video game. Apparently there are some people are taking offense but I'm not convinced that they are anything more than young teenagers. Music on the other hand, especially rap music (even though I like it) can really cross the line quite often.
Also I found it interesting that Peach was a high tier character in SSBM, generally higher than Mario and definitely Bowser.
I think I speak for a silent majority of straight, male gamers when I say this: I'm sick of having to pause a game when a older relative walks into the room because a character's outfit is a little too revealing/the language sounds like something a horny 6th grade boy would write/the games boobie physics are a little too exaggerated. I'm sick of being judged as a gamer because of the saturation of macho. I'm sick of having to endlessly speculate whether or not I can introduce a game to a non-gamer because of suggestive elements, as opposed to the quality of the gameplay.
There's nothing smart about isolating your market from 50% of the world's population. And fuck you for defending chainmail bikinis. That kind of sexist garbage pushed nerdom back at least 10 years by perpetuating the slobbering, antisocial stereotype. I don't care if you think it's all just in good fun; no one will deny that certain role-playing games could be labelled as misogynistic, and if that turned down a few otherwise enthusiastic fans, it's not the image I want to perpetuate. If people with seemingly unpopular opinions but a passion for the medium want to express their opinions, I'm all for them. I'm sure it'll add a little flavor to the bland, homogenous stew that "hardcore gamers" are clinging to.
I guess we play different games, because it's very rare that I'm embarrassed by the content in a game to the point where I want to hide it from my family.
And fuck you for defending chainmail bikinis. That kind of sexist garbage pushed nerdom back at least 10 years by perpetuating the slobbering, antisocial stereotype. If people with seemingly unpopular opinions but a passion for the medium want to express their opinions, I'm all for them. I'm sure it'll add a little flavor to the bland, homogenous stew that "hardcore gamers" are clinging to.
Well, that's civil. Fuck you right back. :-)
Has it occurred to you that the childish drooling and slobbering is an inappropriate reaction to a costume that is only objectifying in the eye of the beholder? You're defining the media based upon the most immature and ill-mannered chunk of its audience, and that's not intellectually honest. The human form is a beautiful thing. In a FANTASY SETTING, I don't understand the obsession with armor being realistic, either. Why is scant armor sexist? There's plenty of muscle-bound, barely clad men in sourcebooks as well. Is that a problem? Why is that a problem? Why should anyone's anatomy ever be considered unempowering? That's fucking BACKWARD, dude.
Comments
It may be trite and useless, but Saw has done no damage like Sexism and Racism in media.
Whoa.
There's an entire culture of "nuke 'em all, let God sort 'em out, glass parking lot, hoo-rah" prevalent in the US that sure isn't helped by violence being normalized in the media. If you're going to condemn one it's hypocrisy not to condemn the other.
They are not similar.
Saw includes people maiming themselves.
Genocide is when country's nuke each other.
The people, the bizarre people, who like Saw...They don't want to kill everyone. They have a Violence Fetish. They aren't people who justify killing lots of others for the sake of solving problems.
It's a different ball-game altogether.
Anyhow, what people articulate (genocidal slogans) and what they actually support (war on thin or no justification) are different but still both supported by violent media as much as misogyny is promoted by sexist media.
Violence fetish, gun fetish, glorification of the military, are pretty close neighbors in my book.
EDIT: super ninja'd. I'm not sure if I'm relevant any more.
The problem that encourages that kind of name calling is the way that male characters treat and especially the way they talk about female characters, particularly in "machismo-heavy" games like Gears of War, or games where you play an antihero like Grand Theft Auto. There you get a prevalence of gendered insults and casual references to rape.
What do you mean by "brutal nonsense"?
I see the "Saint's Row" method far more than I see anything else.
Is depicting misogyny in media necessarily synonymous with supporting misogynistic viewpoints? In that case, Schindler's List is a HORRIBLE movie, as it promotes genocidal holocaust!
I think the general portrayal is of course just to continue the belief in machismo and that women need to be protected, as the DID situation has been done well and shown at times that even with reduced agency the damsel can still help herself. Look at My Little Pony. Up until the point where she freed Shining Armor from the sway of Chrysalis I'd consider Princess Cadence as a damsel in distress. did she escape from the mines? Yep. Could she affect the villain's overall plan? Not so much.
As always, it is how you look at things and how the designer presented them.
The author makes references to Batman tossing a VILLAIN aside when she refuses to move and tries to call THAT sexist, but that's pretty weak sauce, man.
Now, Catwoman making weird sexual puns immediately after being rescued from peril? Maybe that's a little weird. Without seeing it I don't know. People say weird shit when they're nervous. Is it nervous banter or weirdly inappropriate sexualization? Can't tell from this distance so I can't argue it.
The problem, in essence, lies with booth babes.
Let's think about this: fantasy is fantasy. If it stays in your head and doesn't have an outlet in the "real world," then there's really no problem. So what if someone makes a game with scantily-clad women? Does that mean that I will necessarily devalue women? No! Maybe I just want to look at some pixel tits.
However, the game industry capitalizes on fantasy by providing a bridge between fantasy and reality: booth babes. The creation of a real-world bridge between the world of video games and the real world creates the avenue by which geeks can project these ridiculous and misogynistic fantasies onto real people. And once that link is established, that projection can happen on anyone.
So, because marketing executives have decided to capitalize on male fantasies, those fantasies are being projected onto the real world. It allows us to dehumanize people, and treat them as playthings - objects of entertainment.
"Booth babes" are just the most obvious example of this. The real problem is when members of your peer group exhibit those behaviors. Cosplay can even be a reflection of that - by dressing up and appealing to the desires of some people to have fantasy made into reality, you create that bridge.
The question is: can we have the bridge and not the ensuing crapflood? I don't know, but we don't seem to be very good about it.
Maybe I'm walking around with a certain context in my head that literally NO ONE else has, but I see them as total schtick, taken very lightly, with no impact whatsoever on how I view women in general.
Just like I know Hooters is a goof. It's a total goof. Read the menu some time. They know it. I know it. A few clueless rednecks don't know it.
Booth babes are Hooters.
Also I found it interesting that Peach was a high tier character in SSBM, generally higher than Mario and definitely Bowser.
There's nothing smart about isolating your market from 50% of the world's population. And fuck you for defending chainmail bikinis. That kind of sexist garbage pushed nerdom back at least 10 years by perpetuating the slobbering, antisocial stereotype. I don't care if you think it's all just in good fun; no one will deny that certain role-playing games could be labelled as misogynistic, and if that turned down a few otherwise enthusiastic fans, it's not the image I want to perpetuate. If people with seemingly unpopular opinions but a passion for the medium want to express their opinions, I'm all for them. I'm sure it'll add a little flavor to the bland, homogenous stew that "hardcore gamers" are clinging to.
/endrant
Saint's Row, maybe, but it's parody.
Has it occurred to you that the childish drooling and slobbering is an inappropriate reaction to a costume that is only objectifying in the eye of the beholder? You're defining the media based upon the most immature and ill-mannered chunk of its audience, and that's not intellectually honest. The human form is a beautiful thing. In a FANTASY SETTING, I don't understand the obsession with armor being realistic, either. Why is scant armor sexist? There's plenty of muscle-bound, barely clad men in sourcebooks as well. Is that a problem? Why is that a problem? Why should anyone's anatomy ever be considered unempowering? That's fucking BACKWARD, dude.