Answer these questions with a "yes" or "no", please. No skirting around it with "it's not my place to say" or anything like that:
I reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and his forgiveness for my sins. Will I go to hell when I die? Do I deserve that?
I ask an even more specific question. I deny that Jesus ever existed in any form. Does that matter?
If I died and met said Jesus, I'd reject him for the fact that there had been no reason to believe in him in the first place on Earth, and if he were to demand anything for his lack of a role, he was at best a jerk with unreasonable expectations.
There is no case where I would seek forgiveness from a christian god, whether or not they existed.
I reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and his forgiveness for my sins. According to your beliefs, will I go to hell when I die? Do I deserve that?
Okay, yeah, you would go to Hell. If you don't want to be forgiven, you would go to Hell. I just specifically dislike "non-believers" as a terminology referring to non-Christians. I don't think people who don't specifically believe in Jesus will go to Hell.
Okay, yeah, you would go to Hell. If you don't want to be forgiven, you would go to Hell.
You didn't answer whether I deserve it.
Oh, well, that all depends. What kind of sins don't you want to be forgiven for? Quite frankly, in my opinion, everyone, including myself, has done things that I feel they should want forgiveness for. Therefore, anyone who lives a basic human life and doesn't want forgiveness deserves Hell, because they have done things that are "bad" and are simply being punished. It's like getting a ticket for driving over the speed limit. It is not the policeman's fault, and you deserve the ticket.
I don't think people who don't specifically believe in Jesus will go to Hell.
Thatisa minority opinion among Christians. Why do you think you're right in that regard?
I dunno. Because it makes sense to me. Jesus was just a name. He's just God, it's all just the idea of God. If you believe in a singular God, and ask him for forgiveness, I think at this time, He would grant it to you. That's all.
Do I have to seek forgiveness before I die? Or can I do it after?
Also, forgiveness for what?
Forgiveness for any and all breaking of the semi-arbitrary rules created by God, set aside in the Bible.
You have to seek forgiveness before you die, because a soul that is not cleansed can only be sent to Hell, and I personally believe that God can't physically be around souls filled with sin. Once you're in Hell, of course you want forgiveness, but you can't get it then, that's just not right. That's like being thrown into jail, then saying you're sorry and you want out.
Posted By: AxelOkay, yeah, you would go to Hell. If you don't want to be forgiven, you would go to Hell.
Concerning some of the comments and concerns about silly things like "forgiveness" and the "afterlife." I'm not sure it's ever helpful to convince someone one way or the other of an afterlife, because you can neither confirm or deny it. In fact, there is very little in the Bible itself discussing hell or sheol or whatever. Very little. I think it's simply myopic to use the hell or heaven argument in discussions concerning your faith, assuming you're Christian. It can be a pretty bad crutch, and I suggest you be taciturn and return to the drawing board. It's not helpful.
I'm not sure that any of us can lay claim to any truth. I acknowledge, however, things like meaning, wisdom, and navigational equipment, so-to-speak, for living. All is subjectivity, interpretation, and is as weightless as thought, as weightless your reading of the words I'm writing.
I will try to explain this though, something very real to me, physical violence on account of your beliefs: I got into a lot of trouble in Christian circles when I lived in (and when I revisited) South Carolina for suggesting certain things in discussion. I've given up trying to change minds in that land.
Within the Christian context, there are tools for living that are quite practical, that discussing within the context of faith can lead to some pretty interesting epiphanies for Christians, even though coming to the realizations I'm referring to doesn't necessitate belief in god or a higher power, the mechanisms existent in the Bible are powerful pivots. For instance, considering the Bible's comments on practical things like economic practices in charity and compassion really had me threatened and kicked out of establishments and conversations. I'd say about 90% of the content in the bible is economic in essence and deals with resources, and that the mainstream of Christianity in this country either doesn't follow it or doesn't get it. I hope I don't need to clarify for you how poor self-identifying Christians are at this facet of their beliefs in particular.
I was more concerned with what things meant in the Bible, rather than deriving black and white principles to hold as commandments. I mean, to many of them, the idea that someone might consider anything but the heaven and hell question, resigning themselves to the proxy of Christian identity, grabbing onto clips like "Jesus died for your sins," (What does that mean anyway? No one I met could unpack the sayings that they bitterly and fearfully held on to. It's a grave sickness. And I won't get into the strains of militant Christianity that dominate the south either, which in the event that major downsizing occurs in the US could result in major violence over resources in the name of ____ - which it will at some point unless some serious technological developments occur to get us off of fossil fuels. I predict reversion...) was blasphemous and in need of purging.
It scared me far away. I say this regretfully, I had to lie to protect my livelihood there in SC and I am outraged. I'm not pinning these behaviors on anyone in this forum, but I'm trying to explain that the tendency of exclusion is pretty deplorable.
There is an extreme violence that exists in many close-minded circles of thought whether seen or unseen. While I don't see strains of militant thought in athiest circles, I do worry for it. Should I?
Once you're in Hell, of course you want forgiveness, but you can't get it then, that's just not right. That's like being thrown into jail, then saying you're sorry and you want out.
So infinite punishment for a finite crime? That's crazy.
Forgiveness for any and all breaking of the semi-arbitrary rules created by God, set aside in the Bible.
Why follow an unknowable being's arbitrary rules as described by the myriad people who collected and retranslated stories of secular origin? How can you possibly know the rules?
You have to seek forgiveness before you die
If you truly believe that, then the majority of the people in this forum are, in your mind, going to hell after they die.
If you truly believe that, then the majority of the people in this forum are, in your mind, going to hell after they die.
Nevermind the countless people with various religious beliefs that don't include asking forgiveness of anyone, all the other non-religious people in the world, anyone who accidentally dies before asking forgiveness, etc...
Very easy discussion occurred. Baptize the kid, put them on the standard path, but regardless of age/maturity level/whatever, if the kid ever has enough thought to raise a question, they get the truth, and can stop whenever they want. We celebrate the culture (Santa, the Easter Bunny), but not actually push belief of the stories.
When two people care so little about religion it's pretty easy to not have in depth discussions on it. Neither of us have been to an actual Sunday mass in over 10 years. I think I may have overstated her religiousness. It's more of "I have a preference for A", "She has a preference for B", to the point where it's not even worth our breath to discuss until we realize there may be a decision that has to be made. In the end it was easier than picking what to have for dinner. I laid out my motivations and was able to very easily cross off "want child to go to heaven" and "want child to fit in", leaving "dont' want to give church my money". I'm less inclined to make an argument about cash than if I had some moral debate.
I know it sounds funny to make something people take so seriously (and something that I did indeed give serious though, enough to want to vent my thoughts here) into a trivial choice, but I've never once thought it would screw the kid up in the head, because I don't have real hate for the church like some people I know. I am just apathetic. If I believe something like this would unwind all the goodness we present with a strong home environment, I'd be super paranoid about twenty other things, and would wind up a home-schooler in the hills with a shotgun and canned food, putting my child in a bubble. In the end, it just means it's not a big deal so I'm cool with what she wants to do.
We have sins. Jesus didn't. He was given a punishment that is for people who sin. Because he was receiving punishment, he chose that he would be punished for all of our sins, since he had none to be punished for.
A lot of the things you said are definitely true. A lot of them I disagree with. You have every right to all of them.
Also, to Rym, asking loaded questions where you will deride me no matter my answer is a douchey thing to do. Just sayin'.
They're fair questions. According to what you've said, most of us here are literally going to hell when we die.
We have sins. Jesus didn't. He was given a punishment that is for people who sin. Because he was receiving punishment, he chose that he would be punished for all of our sins, since he had none to be punished for.
What kind of jerk does something so unfair? Why bother? And how do we even know that's what he did?
Also, to Rym, asking loaded questions where you will deride me no matter my answer is a douchey thing to do. Just sayin'.
Fair play, man. You've just said that he's going to punished for an eternity after he dies.
True. I'm just sayin', if I give a hospitable answer to his question, I'm inconsistent. If I give an honest answer, I'm a misguided ass. Also, the same goes to Funfetus, because asking me if I think he's going to Hell is also a loaded question. There's no right answer.
True. I'm just sayin', if I give a hospitable answer to his question, I'm inconsistent. If I give an honest answer, I'm a misguided ass.
According to your honest answers so far, I'm going to hell, along with everyone I know.
Yeah, and so it's a loaded question. If I say you're going to Hell, I'm a jerk. If I don't, I'm inconsistent and my beliefs don't have a good basis.
We have sins. Jesus didn't. He was given a punishment that is for people who sin. Because he was receiving punishment, he chose that he would be punished for all of our sins, since he had none to be punished for.
What kind of jerk does something so unfair? Why bother? And how do we even know that's what he did?
Why is that unfair? That's pretty selfless, to die so that we don't have to deal with the punishment we would otherwise have to receive for dealing with our sins. You're right, being punished for rules that we can't necessarily control is rude. That's why I choose to believe Jesus did what he did, so we could be freed of the fact that we by nature act one way. Why bother? Because I believe God loves his creations. And how do we know? We don't, I choose to believe that because I think it makes sense and it makes me happy.
And how do we know? We don't, I choose to believe that because I think it makes sense and it makes me happy.
I choose to believe that tomorrow someone is going to bust into your house, rape your entire family, and flense all of your skin off and then shove porcupine needles up your dick. I believe this because it makes me happy.
Yeah, and so it's a loaded question. If I say you're going to Hell, I'm a jerk. If I don't, I'm inconsistent and my beliefs don't have a good basis.
So you're saying that you have to lie about how you feel, because your real feelings make you a jerk in other peoples' eyes. What a horrid religion, where you have to lie to the faces of people who you actually, honestly believe are going to hell.
Why is that unfair? That's pretty selfless, to die so that we don't have to deal with the punishment we would otherwise have to receive for dealing with our sins.
Selfless to punish himself for the rules he himself made up to spare others the arbitrary punishment he had no reason to dole out in the first place and could prevent any time?
God loves his creations.
I couldn't consider it love to eternally punish someone for the non-eternal crime of failing to follow the ambiguous rules laid down in a book written and translated by men (apart from all other similar books with similar origins). I shan't bother quoting Epicurus again.
I choose to believe that because I think it makes sense and it makes me happy.
So it makes you happy that I, along with the majority of humans who have ever lived, am personally going to a hell created by your god?
And how do we know? We don't, I choose to believe that because I think it makes sense and it makes me happy.
I choose to believe that tomorrow someone is going to bust into your house, rape your entire family, and flense all of your skin off and then shove porcupine needles up your dick. I believe this because it makes me happy.
And how do we know? We don't, I choose to believe that because I think it makes sense and it makes me happy.
I choose to believe that tomorrow someone is going to bust into your house, rape your entire family, and flense all of your skin off and then shove porcupine needles up your dick. I believe this because it makes me happy.
Cool.
Hardly.
So, God is saving us from the punishment we would otherwise receive from God?
Can you explain "seeking forgiveness", since it's pretty crucial to this discussion and it isn't entirely clear what is meant?
Rym- This is exactly my point. You asked me a question solely for the purpose of pointing out the problems you have with me. You're missing my point entirely about the loaded question thing. I can choose to give two answers to someone's question of "Am I going to Hell." For you, both answers I can give are a cause for derision of my beliefs. Therefore, for someone to ask that question of me, you simply are looking for a reason to deride me. Just deride me, don't bother with the question. Seriously. That's all I was saying.
So God is saving us from the punishment we would otherwise receive from God?
Can you explain "seeking forgiveness", since it's pretty crucial to this discussion and it isn't entirely clear what is meant?
Seeking forgiveness...Wanting to be forgiven? Wanting for your sins to be cleansed?
Like, if you want to be forgiven, you are actively trying (not necessarily succeeding) to change your behavior from whatever you did that you are sorry for. You don't want your behavior to be the way it was, so you ask for forgiveness and make an attempt to change your ways.
He was given a punishment that is for people who sin. Because he was receiving punishment, he chose that he would be punished for all of our sins, since he had none to be punished for.
The idea of vicarious redemption or forgiveness is immoral and a weak foundation for any ethical standard. I do not believe that my "sins" can be forgiven through the death of another, nor if given the chance would I want to be forgiven through that manner. It is unethical and honestly quite gruesome. Only the most barbaric of cultures would think such a thing worthy of any consideration. I really can't put it quite as well as this.
Holy fucking huge argument. I just skipped about twenty posts, but I get the feeling someone is going to lose an argument here. Also I stopped when I saw something about porcupine needles up my dick. Glad to know that's not happening soon.
@Andrew - Everything you just said there was your opinion and you are entitled to it. I don't believe it's weak, and logic can't really change that. So sorry.
Comments
If I died and met said Jesus, I'd reject him for the fact that there had been no reason to believe in him in the first place on Earth, and if he were to demand anything for his lack of a role, he was at best a jerk with unreasonable expectations.
There is no case where I would seek forgiveness from a christian god, whether or not they existed.
I just specifically dislike "non-believers" as a terminology referring to non-Christians. I don't think people who don't specifically believe in Jesus will go to Hell.
Also, Rym, that's a nice opinion.
Also, forgiveness for what?
You have to seek forgiveness before you die, because a soul that is not cleansed can only be sent to Hell, and I personally believe that God can't physically be around souls filled with sin. Once you're in Hell, of course you want forgiveness, but you can't get it then, that's just not right. That's like being thrown into jail, then saying you're sorry and you want out.
Isn't seeking forgiveness just a selfish act to make yourself feel better?
I'm not sure that any of us can lay claim to any truth. I acknowledge, however, things like meaning, wisdom, and navigational equipment, so-to-speak, for living. All is subjectivity, interpretation, and is as weightless as thought, as weightless your reading of the words I'm writing.
I will try to explain this though, something very real to me, physical violence on account of your beliefs:
I got into a lot of trouble in Christian circles when I lived in (and when I revisited) South Carolina for suggesting certain things in discussion. I've given up trying to change minds in that land.
Within the Christian context, there are tools for living that are quite practical, that discussing within the context of faith can lead to some pretty interesting epiphanies for Christians, even though coming to the realizations I'm referring to doesn't necessitate belief in god or a higher power, the mechanisms existent in the Bible are powerful pivots. For instance, considering the Bible's comments on practical things like economic practices in charity and compassion really had me threatened and kicked out of establishments and conversations. I'd say about 90% of the content in the bible is economic in essence and deals with resources, and that the mainstream of Christianity in this country either doesn't follow it or doesn't get it. I hope I don't need to clarify for you how poor self-identifying Christians are at this facet of their beliefs in particular.
I was more concerned with what things meant in the Bible, rather than deriving black and white principles to hold as commandments. I mean, to many of them, the idea that someone might consider anything but the heaven and hell question, resigning themselves to the proxy of Christian identity, grabbing onto clips like "Jesus died for your sins," (What does that mean anyway? No one I met could unpack the sayings that they bitterly and fearfully held on to. It's a grave sickness. And I won't get into the strains of militant Christianity that dominate the south either, which in the event that major downsizing occurs in the US could result in major violence over resources in the name of ____ - which it will at some point unless some serious technological developments occur to get us off of fossil fuels. I predict reversion...) was blasphemous and in need of purging.
It scared me far away. I say this regretfully, I had to lie to protect my livelihood there in SC and I am outraged. I'm not pinning these behaviors on anyone in this forum, but I'm trying to explain that the tendency of exclusion is pretty deplorable.
There is an extreme violence that exists in many close-minded circles of thought whether seen or unseen. While I don't see strains of militant thought in athiest circles, I do worry for it. Should I?
When two people care so little about religion it's pretty easy to not have in depth discussions on it. Neither of us have been to an actual Sunday mass in over 10 years. I think I may have overstated her religiousness. It's more of "I have a preference for A", "She has a preference for B", to the point where it's not even worth our breath to discuss until we realize there may be a decision that has to be made. In the end it was easier than picking what to have for dinner. I laid out my motivations and was able to very easily cross off "want child to go to heaven" and "want child to fit in", leaving "dont' want to give church my money". I'm less inclined to make an argument about cash than if I had some moral debate.
I know it sounds funny to make something people take so seriously (and something that I did indeed give serious though, enough to want to vent my thoughts here) into a trivial choice, but I've never once thought it would screw the kid up in the head, because I don't have real hate for the church like some people I know. I am just apathetic. If I believe something like this would unwind all the goodness we present with a strong home environment, I'd be super paranoid about twenty other things, and would wind up a home-schooler in the hills with a shotgun and canned food, putting my child in a bubble. In the end, it just means it's not a big deal so I'm cool with what she wants to do.
We have sins. Jesus didn't. He was given a punishment that is for people who sin. Because he was receiving punishment, he chose that he would be punished for all of our sins, since he had none to be punished for.
A lot of the things you said are definitely true. A lot of them I disagree with. You have every right to all of them.
Then again, I chose to post, so it's my own fault.
Also, the same goes to Funfetus, because asking me if I think he's going to Hell is also a loaded question. There's no right answer.
So, God is saving us from the punishment we would otherwise receive from God?
Can you explain "seeking forgiveness", since it's pretty crucial to this discussion and it isn't entirely clear what is meant?
I can choose to give two answers to someone's question of "Am I going to Hell."
For you, both answers I can give are a cause for derision of my beliefs. Therefore, for someone to ask that question of me, you simply are looking for a reason to deride me. Just deride me, don't bother with the question. Seriously. That's all I was saying.
Like, if you want to be forgiven, you are actively trying (not necessarily succeeding) to change your behavior from whatever you did that you are sorry for. You don't want your behavior to be the way it was, so you ask for forgiveness and make an attempt to change your ways.
I really can't put it quite as well as this.