For you, both answers I can give are a cause for derision of my beliefs.
Wouldn't you say it's fair to deride a belief that you will literally burn in a hell for all eternity because someone else's stories you don't believe say so? You literally believe that, when I die, your god will kick my ass, burning me forever. That's crazy and laughable. You're free to have that belief, but you must understand that it is very, very crazy to most people.
You truly believe that the majority of people ever are going to this hell.
So God is saving us from the punishment we would otherwise receive from God?
Can you explain "seeking forgiveness", since it's pretty crucial to this discussion and it isn't entirely clear what is meant?
Seeking forgiveness...Wanting to be forgiven? Wanting for your sins to be cleansed?
Like, if you want to be forgiven, you are actively trying (not necessarily succeeding) to change your behavior from whatever you did that you are sorry for. You don't want your behavior to be the way it was, so you ask for forgiveness and make an attempt to change your ways.
What if I try to change my errors of behaviour without any association with God?
Yeah, it's fair to deride. Just don't ask the question. You know that based on my beliefs, people are going to Hell. If I say they're not, then I'm not following my own beliefs, and I will be derided for inconsistency. If I say they are going to Hell, which I did in fact say to Funfetus, then I am derided for being mean. You know, before the question, that I have to believe the 2nd option, so simply deride me for that. Don't test me to see if I'll try to be nice or some shit like that. It's a waste of everyone's time.
So God is saving us from the punishment we would otherwise receive from God?
Can you explain "seeking forgiveness", since it's pretty crucial to this discussion and it isn't entirely clear what is meant?
Seeking forgiveness...Wanting to be forgiven? Wanting for your sins to be cleansed?
Like, if you want to be forgiven, you are actively trying (not necessarily succeeding) to change your behavior from whatever you did that you are sorry for. You don't want your behavior to be the way it was, so you ask for forgiveness and make an attempt to change your ways.
What if I try to change my errors of behaviour without any association with God?
I dunno. I would assume, based on my beliefs, that this means you're still going to Hell.
This is the worst part. Through the sheer act of being born and living I have sinned. I am born sick and then commanded to be well. How can this be the basis of moral reasoning?
Just don't ask the question. You know that based on my beliefs, people are going to Hell. If I say they're not, then I'm not following my own beliefs, and I will be derided for inconsistency. If I say they are going to Hell, which I did in fact say to Funfetus, then I am derided for being mean.
You're not being mean. You believe in a mean religion with a mean god.
Just don't ask the question. You know that based on my beliefs, people are going to Hell. If I say they're not, then I'm not following my own beliefs, and I will be derided for inconsistency. If I say they are going to Hell, which I did in fact say to Funfetus, then I am derided for being mean.
You're not being mean. You believe in a mean religion with a mean god.
Okay. Just say that to me, don't ask the question. That's my entire point. You ask the question, but that was your final intended point the whole time when you ask that question of anyone. Skip the question, go straight to the point. Don't lead people into it. That's the douchey part.
Okay. Just say that to me, don't ask the question. That's my entire point. You ask the question, but that was your final intended point the whole time when you ask that question of anyone. Skip the question, go straight to the point. Don't lead people into it. That's the douchey part.
If you are so fervent of your beliefs, why not testify to them? Are you ashamed of what you believe?
Don't lead people into it. That's the douchey part.
You needed leading because you always demure from the true craziness of what you believe. That I will burn in an eternal flame in some dimension created by the god you worship.
Don't lead people into it. That's the douchey part.
You needed leading because you always demure from the true craziness of what you believe. That I will burn in an eternal flame in some dimension created by the god you worship.
No, I don't demure. I'm quite honest about this. And you know that based on my beliefs, this must be what I believe.
Okay. Just say that to me, don't ask the question. That's my entire point. You ask the question, but that was your final intended point the whole time when you ask that question of anyone. Skip the question, go straight to the point. Don't lead people into it. That's the douchey part.
If you are so fervent of your beliefs, why not testify to them? Are you ashamed of what you believe?
No, but Rym is being an ass asking a question that he really already knows the answer to so he can mock me once I answer him.
No, but Rym is being an ass asking a question that he really already knows the answer to so he can mock me once I answer him.
This has been a theme in every discussion about religion that you've been involved in on this forum. You confuse intellectual argument with a personal attack. Rym is following a very standard argumentative path -- yes, he's trying to "trap" you, because he believes (and I do too) that there are holes in your reasoning, and he wants to show them to you.
Also, the same goes to Funfetus, because asking me if I think he's going to Hell is also a loaded question. There's no right answer.
I'm not sure if it's a loaded question -- I honestly didn't know what answer you were going to give. There most certainly is a "right" answer -- it's the honest one. Many Christians will to go great lengths to avoid telling a person that he's going to hell, and especially to avoid telling him that he deserves it. I have to commend you on your consistency in that regard. I do find it troubling that you believe that I, and almost every other person on this forum, actually deserve for the worst possible thing to happen to us, forever, for nothing more than failing to ask forgiveness of a God that we can't, if we're intellectually honest, believe exists.
Really, I don't think you actually believe that. I know you're a better person than that. You just haven't thought your way out of the hole you're trapped in yet.
All that aside, though -- I thought you'd have learned this by now: If you don't want to defend your beliefs on this forum, don't talk about them.
So God is saving us from the punishment we would otherwise receive from God?
Can you explain "seeking forgiveness", since it's pretty crucial to this discussion and it isn't entirely clear what is meant?
Seeking forgiveness...Wanting to be forgiven? Wanting for your sins to be cleansed?
Like, if you want to be forgiven, you are actively trying (not necessarily succeeding) to change your behavior from whatever you did that you are sorry for. You don't want your behavior to be the way it was, so you ask for forgiveness and make an attempt to change your ways.
What if I try to change my errors of behaviour without any association with God?
I dunno. I would assume, based on my beliefs, that this means you're still going to Hell.
Isn't it more important that I try to improve myself than whether or not God's forgiveness is involved?
Also, who wouldn't want to be forgiven for the mistakes they've made? Being forgiven is a good feeling; no-one would actively seek to avoid being forgiven, and it takes no effort at all to accept forgiveness. The difficulty lies in putting in the work to avoid repeating those mistakes.
Really, I don't think you actually believe that. I know you're a better person than that. You just haven't thought your way out of the hole you're trapped in yet.
All that aside, though -- I thought you'd have learned this by now: If you don't want to defend your beliefs on this forum, don't talk about them.
This is...Really...Stupid?
There's no hole in my logic. There's a severe difference in opinion here. But my logic works.I believe in sin. I believe we need to be forgiven for our sins to not to go to Hell. I believe we can be forgiven for our sins. If you're not, you go to Hell. Like...I don't see the problem. It's very mean, as Rym puts it, but there's no flaw in logic there. You can say that you think I'm a good enough person that you think I don't honestly believe that, but my other beliefs dictate that I do, and if that makes me a bad person, then I am a bad person.
Now, do I like that I hold this belief? No, but in order for my other beliefs that I do like to work, I have to hold this one. In order to not believe that you're all going to Hell, I'm required to not believe in God and original sin, and as I've said, the scientific explanations for morality don't make as much sense to me as the theistic ones.
The reason we ask you point by point is simple. Yes, we already know what you believe, but we are trying to show you your own cognitive dissonance that you do not recognize. We are trying to show you that your own beliefs contradict themselves, and you don't realize it. We do this by asking you separate questions, and then you answer them. Then we combine your answers together and show you how they contradict each other.
You could use this technique on us, but it will not work. The reason it won't work is not because the technique has failed, but because our points are consistent and logically sound. If you were also logical and consistent, it would not work on you either.
Your refusal to answer the questions is proof that you are actually worse than a believer. You are an ashamed believer. You believe, but you don't like believing. Or perhaps you are a coward. You know that you are wrong, but you are afraid to realize it. Whether you are religious or atheist, cowardice and shame are not really positive traits. Be brave and state your true feelings.
Also, my point about the flensing and such. You believe that I will be on fire, forever, and that makes you happy. You are happy that I will be on fire forever. How could I not consider you an evil person? And if the god you believe in wants me to be on fire forever, how can I not consider that god evil? He has infinite power, he could solve all the problems in the universe, but instead he's going to set me on fire forever. Even if that god is real, who wants to support that god?
Might as well bring in Godwin's law, since this thread is long. The Judeo-Christian god is worse than Hitler. Sure, Hitler killed millions. But God has the power to save everyone, so technically he killed everyone who has ever died. Also, he set most of them on fire for all eternity after they died. Not only do you believe in this god, but you are on his side, and worship him. How does that make you a good person? It makes you much worse than any SS. You are happy that we will all die in a fire forever.
Now, do I like that I hold this belief? No, but in order for my other beliefs that I do like to work, I have to hold this one. In order to not believe that you're all going to Hell, I'm required to not believe in God and original sin, and as I've said, the scientific explanations for morality don't make as much sense to me as the theistic ones.
I asked this before, but it's an important one: How exactly does theism explain good behaviour among humans, especially among atheists?
You believe that I will be on fire, forever, and that makes you happy.
Now, do I like that I hold this belief? No, but in order for my other beliefs that I do like to work, I have to hold this one.
Except I say right here that I am not happy that you're going to Hell. I'm just going to ignore the rest of your post, because this is so blatantly wrong right now that it makes me mad.
Except I say right here that I am not happy that you're going to Hell. I'm just going to ignore the rest of your post, because this is so blatantly wrong right now that it makes me mad.
You aren't happy that I am going to hell.
But you admit that God is sending me there.
You worship this god. You pray to this god. You live your life serving a god who is doing something you do not like.
Why should I like you? Why should I not hate you and your god?
Praying to god is basically the same as making a voodoo doll of me and putting pins in it.
What have I done to deserve this fate? Have I done anything wrong? If so, what have I done? Why do I deserve that consequence? If I don't deserve it, but your god is going to give it to me anyway, how is that god not an evil fuck?
Except I say right here that I am not happy that you're going to Hell. I'm just going to ignore the rest of your post, because this is so blatantly wrong right now that it makes me mad.
You aren't happy that I am going to hell.
But you admit that God is sending me there.
You worship this god. You pray to this god. You live your life serving a god who is doing something you do not like.
Praying to god is basically the same as making a voodoo doll of me and putting pins in it.
I'm sorry. But, the alternative of not believing in a God and afterlife is not appealing to me. There's no answer that makes me universally happy, so I'll take the one I've decided on right now.
I'm sorry. But, the alternative of not believing in a God and afterlife is not appealing to me. There's no answer that makes me universally happy, so I'll take the one I've decided on right now.
Nice to see that Christianity drives you to care more about yourself than those around you. Thanks for getting our back, bro.
That's a false dichotomy. Why not believe in a God who doesn't damn anyone to an eternity in Hell?
Because it makes no goddamn sense, because that would mean there is no sin, because my definition of sin means that God is physically incapable of being around it, and if there is no sin, then I have no reason to believe in God.
I'm sorry. But, the alternative of not believing in a God and afterlife is not appealing to me. There's no answer that makes me universally happy, so I'll take the one I've decided on right now.
Would it make you happy if you had a million dollars?
I'm sorry. But, the alternative of not believing in a God and afterlife is not appealing to me. There's no answer that makes me universally happy, so I'll take the one I've decided on right now.
Would it make you happy if you had a million dollars?
I don't know where you're going with this, and I don't really care, but I'll bite. Yes.
I'm sorry. But, the alternative of not believing in a God and afterlife is not appealing to me. There's no answer that makes me universally happy, so I'll take the one I've decided on right now.
Would it make you happy if you had a million dollars?
I don't know where you're going with this, and I don't really care, but I'll bite. Yes.
Congratulations you now have a million dollars. Do you believe it?
Comments
You truly believe that the majority of people ever are going to this hell.
Really, I don't think you actually believe that. I know you're a better person than that. You just haven't thought your way out of the hole you're trapped in yet.
All that aside, though -- I thought you'd have learned this by now: If you don't want to defend your beliefs on this forum, don't talk about them.
Also, who wouldn't want to be forgiven for the mistakes they've made? Being forgiven is a good feeling; no-one would actively seek to avoid being forgiven, and it takes no effort at all to accept forgiveness. The difficulty lies in putting in the work to avoid repeating those mistakes.
There's no hole in my logic. There's a severe difference in opinion here. But my logic works.I believe in sin. I believe we need to be forgiven for our sins to not to go to Hell. I believe we can be forgiven for our sins. If you're not, you go to Hell. Like...I don't see the problem. It's very mean, as Rym puts it, but there's no flaw in logic there. You can say that you think I'm a good enough person that you think I don't honestly believe that, but my other beliefs dictate that I do, and if that makes me a bad person, then I am a bad person.
Now, do I like that I hold this belief? No, but in order for my other beliefs that I do like to work, I have to hold this one. In order to not believe that you're all going to Hell, I'm required to not believe in God and original sin, and as I've said, the scientific explanations for morality don't make as much sense to me as the theistic ones.
You could use this technique on us, but it will not work. The reason it won't work is not because the technique has failed, but because our points are consistent and logically sound. If you were also logical and consistent, it would not work on you either.
Your refusal to answer the questions is proof that you are actually worse than a believer. You are an ashamed believer. You believe, but you don't like believing. Or perhaps you are a coward. You know that you are wrong, but you are afraid to realize it. Whether you are religious or atheist, cowardice and shame are not really positive traits. Be brave and state your true feelings.
Also, my point about the flensing and such. You believe that I will be on fire, forever, and that makes you happy. You are happy that I will be on fire forever. How could I not consider you an evil person? And if the god you believe in wants me to be on fire forever, how can I not consider that god evil? He has infinite power, he could solve all the problems in the universe, but instead he's going to set me on fire forever. Even if that god is real, who wants to support that god?
Might as well bring in Godwin's law, since this thread is long. The Judeo-Christian god is worse than Hitler. Sure, Hitler killed millions. But God has the power to save everyone, so technically he killed everyone who has ever died. Also, he set most of them on fire for all eternity after they died. Not only do you believe in this god, but you are on his side, and worship him. How does that make you a good person? It makes you much worse than any SS. You are happy that we will all die in a fire forever.
How exactly does theism explain good behaviour among humans, especially among atheists?
Fuck that.
But you admit that God is sending me there.
You worship this god. You pray to this god. You live your life serving a god who is doing something you do not like.
Why should I like you? Why should I not hate you and your god?
Praying to god is basically the same as making a voodoo doll of me and putting pins in it.
What have I done to deserve this fate? Have I done anything wrong? If so, what have I done? Why do I deserve that consequence? If I don't deserve it, but your god is going to give it to me anyway, how is that god not an evil fuck?