Glorifying the male sexual organ? Seriously? You call someone being reduced to just his sex organ glorifying? The same organ men get ridiculed and harassed for here in our western world?
I said culture as a whole glorifies male sexuality more than female, not that the insult itself is particularly glorifying. You always rag on people for reading comprehension, but I don't think you read my post very well. I think you saw a statement and incorrectly extrapolated.
Saying you can't call a cunt a cunt because her social group "faces more oppression" is not going to make any headway towards gender equality. Call a cunt a cunt and a dick a dick and everyone an asshole.
I'm not saying you can't use it. I'm not saying you can't call women names. I'm saying THE WORD ITSELF is a more potent insult than its male counterpart, just like how ethnic slurs get more potent based on the oppression of the group concerned.
Insults are insults, get your fucking gender equality bullshit out of their way. Instead use fucking gender equality to get women the same fucking wage for the same fucking job, and men the same fucking chances for custody when their wives walks out drunk on him with the kids.
I'll get my gender equality in EVERYTHING, because it's all part and parcel of the same culture. Believe it or not, the slang in common parlance is often indicative of the biases of a given society. It's not completely unrelated to the greater problems.
I said culture as a whole glorifies male sexuality more than female, not that the insult itself is particularly glorifying. You always rag on people for reading comprehension, but I don't think you read my post very well. I think you saw a statement and incorrectly extrapolated.
When people stop denigrating the female body and glorifying the male sexual organ, we can have equality in our potty mouth words.
Not at any point did you mention culture at all. You spoke solely about insults and slurs and how you found some to be insults to be more so than others. And then you said the male sexual organ got glorified, not male sexuality. There is a significant difference between the two. In terms of sexuality, I will give it to you that male heterosexuality is indeed praised, of sorts. On the other hand, male homosexuality is usually the first and main target when someone is against homosexuality.
I'm not saying you can't use it. I'm not saying you can't call women names. I'm saying THE WORD ITSELF is a more potent insult than its male counterpart, just like how ethnic slurs get more potent based on the oppression of the group concerned.
True, you didn't say one can't use it. You instead said that it shouldn't be used because it is OH SO MUCH MORE WORSE (bullshit). With gender equality mentioned as a bullshit argument. Apparently reducing a man to just his genitals is perfectly fine in comparison.
I'll get my gender equality in EVERYTHING, because it's all part and parcel of the same culture.
Yet you say people shouldn't treat the other gender equal because they are not yet equal. We're not going to get anywhere with that pace you know.
Believe it or not, the slang in common parlance is often indicative of the biases of a given society. It's not completely unrelated to the greater problems.
And the biases at present are mostly leaning towards insulting men in my personal experience. When it comes to being insulted women should really swallow more.
And the biases at present are mostly leaning towards insulting men in my personal experience. When it comes to being insulted women should really swallow more.
Um, really? I have heard "don't be such a girl" used as an insult all the time, but "man up" be used to exhort someone to do better. When "like a girl" is an insult for weakness and vulnerability, it's hard to say that "biases are mostly leaning toward insulting men."
Not at any point did you mention culture at all. You spoke solely about insults and slurs and how you found some to be insults to be more so than others. And then you said the male sexual organ got glorified, not male sexuality. There is a significant difference between the two. In terms of sexuality, I will give it to you that male heterosexuality is indeed praised, of sorts. On the other hand, male homosexuality is usually the first and main target when someone is against homosexuality.
Okay, I do believe that the female body AND female sexuality are respected less than their male counterparts. And it is totally true that this is only the case for the heterosexual version of male sexuality. I did not say the insult we were talking about was glorifying things. To summarize that I said. Gendered swearwords can't be equal in intensity because society
Yet you say people shouldn't treat the other gender equal because they are not yet equal. We're not going to get anywhere with that pace you know.
Um, no, I'm saying that because they are not equal at this point in time, the insult is stronger and has another layer on top of it. Instead of being "you dick," it comes across "you-dick-of-a-disrespected-group." You really don't think that "regular insult" is stronger than "regular insult + accusation of being female?" Again, I did not say that it was verboten. Insults are insults. They are meant to be rude. I am just saying that "dick" and "cunt" are not analogous, nor will they be while these deeper issues persist in the public subconscious. "Female" is an insult in our society. I firmly believe this to be the case. All I am asking is that people notice the imbalances that are all through-out their cultures. I hate when people say stuff like "racism/sexism/other-ism is over." just because they don't perceive it due to spaciness.
tl;dr version": If "dick" and "cunt" are equivalent in practical effect, then so are "cracker" and "nigger."
The real world shows that the latter is far stronger an insult than the former. I'll wager many of you felt uncomfortable, even if just for a moment, simply seeing the word nigger here.
tl;dr version": If "dick" and "cunt" are equivalent in practical effect, then so are "cracker" and "nigger."
The real world shows that the latter is far stronger an insult than the former. I'll wager many of you felt uncomfortable, even if just for a moment, simply seeing the word nigger here.
Years of 4chan and South Park have completely removed the evocative power of that work. Intellectually, there's nothing to stop me from saying it in public other than the knowledge that I'd get my ass kicked.
I fully believe that in our culture, "Cunt" is a far more serious term, not 100% due to it's gender definition, but simply because how it is not commonly used. "Dick" itself has started having it's own league of name variations and is acknowledged for it's double meaning of a penis and a nickname for someone named Richard. I think "Dick" is very much like the word "ass." You can customize it, it isn't as offensive, but it can still offend someone just over the fact that you would openly swear in public.
Saying "Cunt" or "Twat" is sort of like a hidden weapon and it might because of our English Diction that the terms never really caught on. I'm not sure if we can really track the history of swear words to what made some words more acceptable and others not, but Cunt/Twat really stayed away from the public eye and have such a limited use and definition, compared to other swears like Fuck or Shit.
I also think it comes from the tone/context of the situation. My brother infuriated me because he tried to make up for the fact that he called regular, irritating women you might now as "The most ignorant stupid twats that could ever exist" And then to back-pedal saying how there's a difference between twats and women. That kind of backwards defense or trying to come up with logical reasoning for why it's okay to call realistic women "twats" is the more offensive thing. Thus, why his life will suck.
I'll wager many of you felt uncomfortable, even if just for a moment, simply seeing the word nigger here.
Not really. I don't think saying "nigger" when talking about its use is at all offensive. A word has only the power you give it. If someone is using it to refer to a person, it is derogatory and objectifying. If someone is doing a news report about some political figure called a black guy a nigger, the reporter should be perfectly comfortable saying it in an informative report.
Our society is obsessed with taboo words when what they should focus on is the intent and attitude behind them. It's one of my biggest peeves with political correctness. Just because a guy doesn't use the word nigger doesn't mean he's not racist, and a guy using the word nigger doesn't mean he is. Words are given far too much power in our public.
tl;dr version": If "dick" and "cunt" are equivalent in practical effect, then so are "cracker" and "nigger."
The real world shows that the latter is far stronger an insult than the former. I'll wager many of you felt uncomfortable, even if just for a moment, simply seeing the word nigger here.
Part of the solution is to use the latter word from both pairs more often since that serves to lessen the impact.
Um, really? I have heard "don't be such a girl" used as an insult all the time, but "man up" be used to exhort someone to do better. When "like a girl" is an insult for weakness and vulnerability, it's hard to say that "biases are mostly leaning toward insulting men."
And who are those insults levelled at mostly? Men. "Man up" is a pretty one too, no? Quite a double edged sword, used just as easily to hurt and insult a guy, usually. What I meant wasn't the insults themselves, I said the bias lies towards the target being men.
Gendered swearwords can't be equal in intensity because society men more than women.</p>
And I say bullshit. Society loves minorities and the perceived weak.
Um, no, I'm saying that because they are not equal at this point in time, the insult is stronger and has another layer on top of it. Instead of being "you dick," it comes across "you-dick-of-a-disrespected-group." You really don't think that "regular insult" is stronger than "regular insult + accusation of being female?" Again, I did not say that it was verboten. Insults are insults. They are meant to be rude. I am just saying that "dick" and "cunt" are not analogous, nor will they be while these deeper issues persist in the public subconscious. "Female" is an insult in our society. I firmly believe this to be the case. All I am asking is that people notice the imbalances that are all through-out their cultures. I hate when people say stuff like "racism/sexism/other-ism is over." just because they don't perceive it due to spaciness.
And again I shall say bullshit on your ghosts. I agree that people should notice things, but it's not really helping if you espouse that and then fail to notice half of the entire fucking picture.
I'll wager many of you felt uncomfortable, even if just for a moment, simply seeing the word nigger here.
And who are those insults levelled at mostly? Men. "Man up" is a pretty one too, no? Quite a double edged sword, used just as easily to hurt and insult a guy, usually. What I meant wasn't the insults themselves, I said the bias lies towards the target being men.
Duh, read my post! Men insult other men by calling them - wait for it - girls!
And I say bullshit. Society loves minorities and the perceived weak.
Either this is one of those weird moments when I remember that half of the people I talk to on the internet were raised in a different culture than my own, or you are just oblivious.
And again I shall say bullshit on your ghosts. I agree that people should notice things, but it's not really helping if you espouse that and then fail to notice half of the entire fucking picture.
I'm not saying that everything is hunky-dory perfect land for men. Hell, I think our vertically stratified society is screwed up in a lot of ways for most people, regardless of gender. I do think, though, that being born male instead of female gives you a point in your favor in the world we live in. In the big picture, do you think you can really argue that things are WORSE for men than for women?
Our society is obsessed with taboo words when what they should focus on is the intent and attitude behind them. It's one of my biggest peeves with political correctness. Just because a guy doesn't use the word nigger doesn't mean he's not racist, and a guy using the word nigger doesn't mean he is. Words are given far too much power in our public.
This is true.
On the side note, I do think that words can evolve from their original usage. I would argue that although the non-gender specific use of the word "Bitch" carries a vestigial whiff of its sexist origins, it's become so common as to lose it's sting and mainly means "whiny/cranky."
So basically, use these harsh words all you want. Redefine them, etc. Language does that. It's good, though, to be aware of the insinuations of the words you use, and NOT try to deny the bad history stuck to it.
The only thing that infuriates me about this line of argument is that it implicitly finds me guilty or at least complicit for the injustice merely for having a penis. I don't want injustice for woman or minorities. I do my hardest to make sure it doesn't happen.
I'm curious though Emily, how do you address the fact that society portrays men as sex craved animals and the perception that "men can't be raped" or "Oh, the a girl fucked him against his will? I bet he enjoyed that."
Anytime I've thought about this issue, I've always found it extremely difficult to come up with any sort of coherent belief. It's way too nuanced and contextual to simply say "Oh, females have it harder than men" or to break things categorically down into little neat boxes of straight/gay, black/white, male/female. I'm not comfortable painting everyone with the same stroke, I'm not quite sure why those who take up the feminist cause (generally, not specifically talking about you Emily) are so quick to stereotype.
Duh, read my post! Men insult other men by calling them - wait for it - girls!
I read your post. Yes, men are called girls, and sexual organs, and trash, and of certain sexuality, much, much more than a woman. Women are rarely insulted in comparison, and if a guy does so, the Male Feminist Brigade jumps up and pummels the guy to the ground.
I explained what I meant in that comment, something you ignored to just slap down words (and again this time). Clarifying a comment so people can understand it better should be done, no? RCP.
Either this is one of those weird moments when I remember that half of the people I talk to on the internet were raised in a different culture than my own, or you are just oblivious.
Little of column A, little of column B, hey look a mirror. I mean, your tongue never graced the glory of ammoniumchloride till your twenties, right?
I'm not saying that everything is hunky-dory perfect land for men. Hell, I think our vertically stratified society is screwed up in a lot of ways for most people, regardless of gender. I do think, though, that being born male instead of female gives you a point in your favor in the world we live in. In the big picture, do you think you can really argue that things are WORSE for men than for women?
I never have, and never will say or argue that things are worse for men than for women. Men are in a shithole, women are in a shithole, just different ones. They're pretty much all deep enough to be full of shit and crap.
I will however that loaded bullshit statement of being born male giving you favour in our world. Just being born male or female means almost nothing when compared to almost any other factor. Factors tied to gender/sex trump just gender significantly.
The only thing that infuriates me about this line of argument is that it implicitly finds me guilty or at least complicit for the injustice merely for having a penis.
Which is complete and utter bullshit. I mean, a woman birthed you right? So obviously SHE is at fault. Bullshit.
Another example to the rest of your post: Divorce.
The only thing that infuriates me about this line of argument is that it implicitly finds me guilty or at least complicit for the injustice merely for having a penis. I don't want injustice for woman or minorities. I do my hardest to make sure it doesn't happen.
I'm curious though Emily, how do you address the fact that society portrays men as sex craved animals and the perception that "men can't be raped" or "Oh, the a girl fucked him against his will? I bet he enjoyed that."
Anytime I've thought about this issue, I've always found it extremely difficult to come up with any sort of coherent belief. It's way too nuanced and contextual to simply say "Oh, females have it harder than men" or to break things categorically down into little neat boxes of straight/gay, black/white, male/female. I'm not comfortable painting everyone with the same stroke, I'm not quite sure why those who take up the feminist cause (generally, not specifically talking about you Emily) are so quick to stereotype.
I'm quite sure that, on average, in 2012, women do indeed have a harder time overall than men. Of course, this doesn't mean that men aren't discriminated against, and nor does it mean that we should ignore such discrimination.
However, it pays to be aware of such correlations within society, even if we can't be entirely certain of the causal relations behind them.
I'm quite sure that, on average, in 2012, women do indeed have a harder time overall than men.
Did I say otherwise? No. I'm merely pointing out that the argument that females always have it worse off than men isn't exactly the case. I mean, do we have some sort of point value scale for the level of injustice? -3 points to men for unfair divorce laws? -10 points to females for glass ceilings at work?
Again, this is why I'm not comfortable saying one way or the other who has it worse off. I don't really care. All I want is for everyone to be able to live happily and comfortably and will do all that is in my power to make sure that happens.
The only thing that infuriates me about this line of argument is that it implicitly finds me guilty or at least complicit for the injustice merely for having a penis. I don't want injustice for woman or minorities. I do my hardest to make sure it doesn't happen.
See, this is where people get confused. If you work your hardest to make everything nice and equal, and are a good person, you are doing well!
Okay. Here's an example. I am what would be classified demographically as a White American citizen. Centuries ago, White Americans fought with Tribes of American Indians and took their land. Flawed logic I disagree with: You are a White American therefore it is YOUR FAULT the Indian's land got stolen. You should feel PERSONAL GUILT. Logic I agree with: You are a White American. You should understand that because the group you involuntarily belong to did unfair things in the past, that group got an unfair advantage that persists to this day. Try to personally be a fair person who recognizes that these past mistakes occured, sees the influence that remains, and tries to push society toward being a fair place where these inequalities cease to be.
I think you should never be faulted for something you cannot change. You can only be faulted for your actions.
Thus: Being a man = THAT IS FINE AND GREAT AND YOU ARE YOU AND THAT IS OKAY. However: Being someone who denies the existence of inequality = That's a belief, okay? You are guilty of being ignorant and naive, and ignoring problems. It's not your fault you are a man. It IS your fault for being like "My social group is not currently ahead and has not climbed to a position of power on a pile of past injustices."
I'm curious though Emily, how do you address the fact that society portrays men as sex craved animals and the perception that "men can't be raped" or "Oh, the a girl fucked him against his will? I bet he enjoyed that."
Totally uncool, would never say is cool, would try never to say that nothing bad ever happens to men, would not support stereotypes that hurt men.
Individuals are Individuals. You are responsible for you, and if you try hard to be nice, that is good. If everyone in your arbitrary demographic group tries hard to be a good person and do good things? Then that demographic group becomes good, too!
Emily does not bomb other countries. She merely belongs to a country that does. Emily tries to get the country not to do that. Andrew does not oppress women. Andrew merely belongs a involuntary social group that does. Andrew tries to get the group not to do that.
And then to back-pedal saying how there's a difference between twats and women.
There's a spot of truth in it though. A guy, imho, can just as likely be a twat.
That might indeed be how it was meant, actually; in that light Nuker's brother wasn't really all that misguided.
I am willing to ask, do you think I over-reacted to his kind of statements? The situation I've described is verbatim, but it shocks me that he would have such a vitriolic response against a female fictional character. Granted, it's contextual if you watched Breaking Bad, which Bronzdragon admitted. (And I can agree, I don't like the women in that show, but I think they are within the realm of realistic personalities/opinions). I do think trying to backpedal and calmly say how there's a difference between "twat" and "woman," just shows that he's trying to logically okay to call women offensive words.
Um, no, I'm saying that because they are not equal at this point in time, the insult is stronger and has another layer on top of it. Instead of being "you dick," it comes across "you-dick-of-a-disrespected-group." You really don't think that "regular insult" is stronger than "regular insult + accusation of being female?" Again, I did not say that it was verboten. Insults are insults. They are meant to be rude. I am just saying that "dick" and "cunt" are not analogous, nor will they be while these deeper issues persist in the public subconscious. "Female" is an insult in our society. I firmly believe this to be the case. All I am asking is that people notice the imbalances that are all through-out their cultures. I hate when people say stuff like "racism/sexism/other-ism is over." just because they don't perceive it due to spaciness.
I actually read an essay with a WRTC class, known as "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" that does identify that white men are actually somewhat taught to think that their lives are neutral, normative, and average but also ideal at the same time. So when we work to benefit others, we are allowing "them" to be more like "us."
All of these -isms still exist but it is hard to see because we are white males and we taught to have other people think our way because it's privileged. (Which honestly, it is) I do think it's weird that specific swear words that are offensive against women, but if it does exist that you should take the time to be respectful to that other's opinion. Even if you can openly call someone a "cunt" or "twat" within somewhere like the UK or Middle East where it's acceptable, you can't maliciously do it in an area where it is offensive.
I'm still uncomfortable being pigeonholed, even though you say it's okay. I feel like it trivializes my life compared to others.
Well, you are part of a big picture. We all are. Tiny motes of dust in the cosmic ether. We are also important individuals who are loved by our friends and families. Societal groups are fuzzy. There is always a grey area. They are, by their very nature, generalizations. Generalizations often break down on the individual level. Ethnically, I am not 100% "white." Culturally, I am not 100% "American." However, for all intents and purposes, demographically speaking, these are the boxes it is most useful to put me in. If we only go on a individual case-by-case basis, most scientific studies don't work. Data must been seen as part of a big, integrated set to draw conclusions. Soft sciences like sociology are the same way.
Comments
To summarize that I said.
Gendered swearwords can't be equal in intensity because society Um, no, I'm saying that because they are not equal at this point in time, the insult is stronger and has another layer on top of it. Instead of being "you dick," it comes across "you-dick-of-a-disrespected-group." You really don't think that "regular insult" is stronger than "regular insult + accusation of being female?" Again, I did not say that it was verboten. Insults are insults. They are meant to be rude. I am just saying that "dick" and "cunt" are not analogous, nor will they be while these deeper issues persist in the public subconscious.
"Female" is an insult in our society. I firmly believe this to be the case.
All I am asking is that people notice the imbalances that are all through-out their cultures. I hate when people say stuff like "racism/sexism/other-ism is over." just because they don't perceive it due to spaciness.
The real world shows that the latter is far stronger an insult than the former. I'll wager many of you felt uncomfortable, even if just for a moment, simply seeing the word nigger here.
Saying "Cunt" or "Twat" is sort of like a hidden weapon and it might because of our English Diction that the terms never really caught on. I'm not sure if we can really track the history of swear words to what made some words more acceptable and others not, but Cunt/Twat really stayed away from the public eye and have such a limited use and definition, compared to other swears like Fuck or Shit.
I also think it comes from the tone/context of the situation. My brother infuriated me because he tried to make up for the fact that he called regular, irritating women you might now as "The most ignorant stupid twats that could ever exist" And then to back-pedal saying how there's a difference between twats and women. That kind of backwards defense or trying to come up with logical reasoning for why it's okay to call realistic women "twats" is the more offensive thing. Thus, why his life will suck.
Our society is obsessed with taboo words when what they should focus on is the intent and attitude behind them. It's one of my biggest peeves with political correctness. Just because a guy doesn't use the word nigger doesn't mean he's not racist, and a guy using the word nigger doesn't mean he is. Words are given far too much power in our public.
There's also this:
On the side note, I do think that words can evolve from their original usage. I would argue that although the non-gender specific use of the word "Bitch" carries a vestigial whiff of its sexist origins, it's become so common as to lose it's sting and mainly means "whiny/cranky."
So basically, use these harsh words all you want. Redefine them, etc. Language does that. It's good, though, to be aware of the insinuations of the words you use, and NOT try to deny the bad history stuck to it.
We progress from history, we do not deny it.
I'm curious though Emily, how do you address the fact that society portrays men as sex craved animals and the perception that "men can't be raped" or "Oh, the a girl fucked him against his will? I bet he enjoyed that."
Anytime I've thought about this issue, I've always found it extremely difficult to come up with any sort of coherent belief. It's way too nuanced and contextual to simply say "Oh, females have it harder than men" or to break things categorically down into little neat boxes of straight/gay, black/white, male/female. I'm not comfortable painting everyone with the same stroke, I'm not quite sure why those who take up the feminist cause (generally, not specifically talking about you Emily) are so quick to stereotype.
I explained what I meant in that comment, something you ignored to just slap down words (and again this time). Clarifying a comment so people can understand it better should be done, no? RCP. Little of column A, little of column B, hey look a mirror. I mean, your tongue never graced the glory of ammoniumchloride till your twenties, right? I never have, and never will say or argue that things are worse for men than for women. Men are in a shithole, women are in a shithole, just different ones. They're pretty much all deep enough to be full of shit and crap.
I will however that loaded bullshit statement of being born male giving you favour in our world. Just being born male or female means almost nothing when compared to almost any other factor. Factors tied to gender/sex trump just gender significantly.
Another example to the rest of your post: Divorce.
However, it pays to be aware of such correlations within society, even if we can't be entirely certain of the causal relations behind them.
Again, this is why I'm not comfortable saying one way or the other who has it worse off. I don't really care. All I want is for everyone to be able to live happily and comfortably and will do all that is in my power to make sure that happens.
Okay. Here's an example. I am what would be classified demographically as a White American citizen. Centuries ago, White Americans fought with Tribes of American Indians and took their land.
Flawed logic I disagree with: You are a White American therefore it is YOUR FAULT the Indian's land got stolen. You should feel PERSONAL GUILT.
Logic I agree with: You are a White American. You should understand that because the group you involuntarily belong to did unfair things in the past, that group got an unfair advantage that persists to this day. Try to personally be a fair person who recognizes that these past mistakes occured, sees the influence that remains, and tries to push society toward being a fair place where these inequalities cease to be.
I think you should never be faulted for something you cannot change. You can only be faulted for your actions.
Thus: Being a man = THAT IS FINE AND GREAT AND YOU ARE YOU AND THAT IS OKAY.
However: Being someone who denies the existence of inequality = That's a belief, okay? You are guilty of being ignorant and naive, and ignoring problems. It's not your fault you are a man. It IS your fault for being like "My social group is not currently ahead and has not climbed to a position of power on a pile of past injustices."
Individuals are Individuals. You are responsible for you, and if you try hard to be nice, that is good. If everyone in your arbitrary demographic group tries hard to be a good person and do good things? Then that demographic group becomes good, too!
Emily does not bomb other countries. She merely belongs to a country that does. Emily tries to get the country not to do that.
Andrew does not oppress women. Andrew merely belongs a involuntary social group that does. Andrew tries to get the group not to do that.
All of these -isms still exist but it is hard to see because we are white males and we taught to have other people think our way because it's privileged. (Which honestly, it is) I do think it's weird that specific swear words that are offensive against women, but if it does exist that you should take the time to be respectful to that other's opinion. Even if you can openly call someone a "cunt" or "twat" within somewhere like the UK or Middle East where it's acceptable, you can't maliciously do it in an area where it is offensive.
Societal groups are fuzzy. There is always a grey area. They are, by their very nature, generalizations. Generalizations often break down on the individual level. Ethnically, I am not 100% "white." Culturally, I am not 100% "American." However, for all intents and purposes, demographically speaking, these are the boxes it is most useful to put me in. If we only go on a individual case-by-case basis, most scientific studies don't work. Data must been seen as part of a big, integrated set to draw conclusions. Soft sciences like sociology are the same way.