I wasn't actually flaming because I disagreed much with you, but because you were making claims that you didn't have evidence for, and you were starting to sound about as crazy as the crazy right-wing conspiracy theorists that I so despise.
Yet you still can't see the proof that is unfolding on the stock market as we speak.
Who do you think is going to be saved in this crisis? I'll give you a clue... not the 9% currently unemployed (actually close to 20% because a vast majority has just given up even trying) or the ones joining them soon.
Answer: The same people that was saved 3 years ago, that's who!
France, German, Italian and Spainish indices are all down more than 5%, with Italy closer to 6%.
Somehow I seriously doubt it was the 99% there, that wanted to be out of work and/or be in debt. (ie as a taxpayer, when private debt by the banks is nationalised to be public debt)
But Linkigi, obviously if you aren't in the top 1%, someone has manipulated you into being complacent with poverty. Certainly we would all be rich if the media didn't force us into positions of ambivalence about our economic standing. We are all ambitious, intelligent, and skilled enough to be billionaires.
Laugh it up cowboy... We'll see who's still laughing when the fundamental ecomonic system breaks you're out of a job...
You're not applying Occam's Razor. You're claiming that this is some carefully engineered attempt to keep people okay with being poor in order to keep the wealthy rich. It's a lot simpler than that: more people are dumb about money than people are smart with money; the smart people with few morals just make it easy for the dumb people to unwittingly (but willingly) give them money.
I will laugh it up. As long as people have tumors and aneurysms, I have job security. Plus, your theory is pretty out there anyway, so I'm still not concerned.
Fast forward to 44:57. I believe Obama addressed corruption in congress pretty well during the State of the Union in 2010. Transcripts.
It's time to require lobbyists to disclose each contact they make on behalf of a client with my administration or with Congress. It's time to put strict limits on the contributions that lobbyists give to candidates for federal office.
With all due deference to separation of powers, last week the Supreme Court reversed a century of law that I believe will open the floodgates for special interests –- including foreign corporations –- to spend without limit in our elections. (Applause.) I don't think American elections should be bankrolled by America's most powerful interests, or worse, by foreign entities. (Applause.) They should be decided by the American people. And I'd urge Democrats and Republicans to pass a bill that helps to correct some of these problems.
This is the core of it, but it continues and addresses other aspects of politician shenanigans.
Fast forward to 44:57. I believe Obama addressed corruption in congress pretty well during the State of the Union in 2010. Transcripts.
And like I said, it doesn't matter. The corrupt congress claps when they are told they are corrupt and they should clean themselves up! They're laughing! They're saying "Yeah, I'm corrupt. HAHA! WTF are you going to do about it? HAHA! I applaud!" You can openly walk around corrupt as fuck, with everyone hating you, and get re-elected! The transparency means nothing without justice. Ok, we can see you embezzling, but we can't do anything about it. Until they pay for their crimes, they will not stop committing them. I'm not talking about taking just a few and making them a scapegoat. I mean ALL of them. Every corrupt fucker in jail for a LONG time. Fucking over a country of a hundred million people is a pretty big fucking crime, and those who are guilty should suffer very greatly. I might even call it treasonous, but as per the definition in the constitution it most definitely is not.
I mean, look at Ted Stevens. Corrupt as fuck. They even went after him and caught him! Where is he now? Living in luxury probably. Dude should be rotting in jail. Transparency means nothing without justice.
Here's my crazy solution to corruption you are all going to tell me is stupid and wrong. I expect that, but it wouldn't be fun if I didn't open my mouth.
The power to control the government should come at a steep price. Those who wield such power, even those who are not corrupt, should suffer greatly in exchange for that privilege. That is the exchange. Instead, when you are elected to a political position you are lavished with a zillion benefits. Here's how I would fix it.
I would force all elected officials to suffer greatly. If you want to run the country, you will not be allowed to receive any gift whatsoever during the duration of your term. Not even a Christmas present from your children. You have incredible power, it's a fair trade-off. The government will provide you with everything you need. Lodging, food, health care, etc. You will get no luxuries. You're serving the people. You're a public servant, so live like one and not like the monarchs we got rid of.
Absolutely all of your communications will be 100% public. Other than on matters of national security, absolutely no part of your life will be private. All of your letters, phone calls, emails, and everything will be immediately publicly available. Yes, even your calls with your wife and your most private family matters will be public. You want to wield such great power, that is the sacrifice you will make. We won't put actual cameras inside your house, but we will have one on your front door so we know who came to visit, when, and for how long.
If you want to see people at your office, as in lobbyists, you must see them on a first-come first-served basis. People will line up at your office during office hours. You must admit everyone during the office hours in the order they are lined up. If the lobbyist is first in line, so be it. If crazy homeless guy is first in line, so be it. You will not see anyone at lunch because you will eat government food. You've exchanged freedom for power. Money will not prioritize who gets to speak with you or for how long.
You will not be able to take any campaign contribution from a company. You may only take a campaign contribution from an individual taxpaying US citizen. Their name and contribution will be public. There will be a maximum contribution amount per person per election cycle. You may not take a contribution from someone who you do not represent. You can't donate to the campaign fund of the mayor in the next town over. Only your constituents may contribute to your campaign, and only once each. If even one violation is found, you are off and you can never run for office again. Zero tolerance.
And since it is advertising, commercial speech which we can regulate, nobody may purchase any political advertisement period, unless it is with legally acquired campaign funds. You can write and say whatever you want. You can make TV shows and do whatever else you want. Freedom of speech is utmost. But if it is found that political speech was paid for with money, there will be a fine. Write a blog post about the candidate you like. But if someone gave you $1 to write that blog post, that is not fine.
The buyer of the ad and the seller of the ad will both be fined double the cost of the ad. So if it was a $50 ad, each party will be fined $100, for a total of $200. All the money from the fine will go into the campaign fund of the opposition. The actual people running can't really be held responsible for the actions of their supporters, so it wouldn't be fair to punish them if this happens. But if this is found to have happened to too great a degree in a particular election in the winner's favor, then there should be automatic recall elections. Those recall elections shall have a new fundraising period, but the loser will have all the money from the fines as an advantage.
Also, you can't immediately leave congress and get rich. A company might promise you a fancy job after you leave office. That's no problem because all your communications were public. We would know if you had such a promise. And if you did make such a promise, and you went and got a fancy job after leaving office, you go to jail instead!
Also, you must show up to work. Too many congresspeople just aren't there during votes. With obvious exceptions for being sick, everyone must show up where they are supposed to be. If you miss too many committee meetings or votes, you will automatically be sent home with no chance to ever be elected again. If you don't actually want to do the job, someone else will do it instead.
Serving in government should be an honor, a privilege, and a sacrifice. If someone actually wants to serve our country and wield such great power over the lives of hundreds of millions, they should be more than willing to suffer this in the service of the people. It might seem harsh, but it really is a minor amount of suffering compared to the fact that those in the military are risking life and limb. Even firefighters and police risk more than this. If you want the power to declare war and change the course of history without having to risk your own life, then you will instead sacrifice privacy and luxury during your term in office.
I don't know about you, but I would gladly serve in congress under such harsh conditions. The point is to make it very difficult to be corrupt. Make it so that if you are corrupt, you will face justice. And make it so that nobody who is in it for the money will want to serve in the first place. Only those who really want to make the world a better place will be willing to suffer so greatly.
Also, I know this would never happen because it would require a corrupt congress to do this thing to itself. It could happen if there was an actual revolution and the new government instituted and enforced such policies. Perhaps it would make a good political fiction novel.
I'm pretty sure Americans can do a better job then the Pommy rioters.
Ours wasn't a political riot, it was mindless destruction. If we were to do it then I know we'd do it better;p. Have you seen the miners riots under thatcher?
Not really. If anything it is a mix of opportunistic vandalism mixed in with boredom and greed. Everyone loves to prescribe class to these things but as yet on one has really come out and said that it is class. As for race thats just fucking ridicules.
Oh god the idea of politicians being helpful still makes me laugh. At least the police are doing an alrightish job. Its interesting seeing how people are reacting here, mainly in true British fashion of having tea and not caring.
Actually, I don't think Scott's idea is so bad at all. It's kinda Jeffersonian, really.
Jefferson and friends specifically didn't want public office to become an avenue to wealth. They also didn't want a poltitical class to form where we get the same people sitting in Congress for forty years.
I also agree with Scott about harsh punishment. There's some former California representative in jail right now, but he's the only one I can recall who actually had to go to jail.
I'm on my phone right now, so I can't look it up, but what about that Texas bastard, Tom DeLay, who was on "Dancing With the Stars"? Is he in jail yet? He should have been in jail this whole time. He should have been dancing with a wiffle ball bat shoved up his bum.
So, let's say companies can't make contributions directly. What's to stop them from making contributions via individuals?
Nothing. Except each individual can only make a contribution once per candidate per election, and it must be less than the maximum contribution amount.
Let's say a company wants to give a million to candidate X. For the sake of argument, we'll say the maximum donation is ten thousand. That company needs to find 100 people in the candidates jurisdiction and give them ten thousand each. It has to trust those people to give that ten thousand to the candidate when they could just take the money and give the company the finger.
Now they might try to pull a scam. Since the records are public, you can verify if someone donated or not. They can give someone the ten thousand dollars, and then promise to give them twenty thousand if the records show they donated it to the campaign. In effect, bribing people to donate to the campaign of their choice. If they get away with this, it will still be a little bit better since it cost them much more than a million dollars to donate a million dollars to a candidate. You will have to pay the million, plus a hundred bribes. If the limit is five thousand, then they will have to pay two hundred bribes. If they don't get away with it, then both parties are now guilty of political bribery.
It will also actually be somewhat difficult to get away with this. Why? Since the donation is on record with the government, it's on record with the IRS. If it's a large donation on an individual's record, then the IRS will see where that money came from. You are poor on welfare, how did you spare the ten thousand you donated to so-and-so's campaign? There will also be the matter of the corporation's accounting records. Where did these five million dollars go? Can I see some invoices for that?
They also didn't want a poltitical class to form where we get the same people sitting in Congress for forty years.
Yeah, that's another factor. It will suck so much to be in a political position, that you will want to quit very quickly.
I thought jail was supposed to be about reform, not retribution?
It's also about a deterrent. Hopefully people won't be corrupt in the first place if there are actual consequences. Nowadays there are almost no consequences. Once they are in jail, it won't be about retribution, it will be about reform, and also science. Figure out what makes those corrupt people tick to find better ways to deter it than threats of horrible consequences.
Another option is exile. People don't get exiled anymore, but it happened back in the day. Napoleon? You tried to fuck up our country, well you can't live here any more. Citizenship revoked! Sit in the airport until you can convince another country to accept you. I kinda like exile because it isn't cruel or unusual. It doesn't ruin the rest of the person's life, like jail or death. It just makes them very unhappy and causes them an incredibly big inconvenience, assuming they actually want to be here.
Oh god the idea of politicians being helpful still makes me laugh. At least the police are doing an alrightish job. Its interesting seeing how people are reacting here, mainly in true British fashion of having tea and not caring.
Stuff upper lip man, stiff upper lip.
But seriously, yesterday I went out to help clean up after the riot and it was one of the most uplifting things I have ever done, so many awesome people just wanting to help out. *single man tear*
But seriously, yesterday I went out to help clean up after the riot and it was one of the most uplifting things I have ever done, so many awesome people just wanting to help out. *single man tear*
Good on you man, its been fairly quiet up in Gloucestershire. Wish I could have made it down and helped. We had the running joke that if something was to brake out round here it would be a bunch of guys called Hugo and Mungo stealing all the choice crisps and balsamic vinegar from watrose.
I thought jail was supposed to be about reform, not retribution?
Vengeance! Vengeance for the smiling, fanned, cursed villians!
Lecherous, treacherous, remorseles, fanned villians! Villiany so black it stains their souls with eternal shame!
Seriously, if you live so long at the top of society and then betray society's trust for personal enrichment and aggrandizement, reform is no longer an option that interests me. I'm thinking more along the lines of "red-hot poker up the ass ater being flayed alive supsequent to the trepanning".
Corruption is one of the few things that is fairly easy to deter, because it's not a case where a person has nothing to lose; the person already has some kind of power, and they are abusing it for money. They definitely have something to lose. Enforcing anti-corruption laws harshly and extensively has historically worked out pretty good, even if the deterrent is just the local cultural values ruining a person's career once the corruption gets out. In places like Thailand, where most politicians out and out admit to corruption because it's the norm there and nobody can really get the energy up to care anymore, or the US, where the population knows that corruption is rampant but nothing can be done because everyone who can fix it are themselves corrupt, corruption isn't just zero consequence, but you have to do it to advance. One of the barriers to entry in US politics is that you have to be corrupt, or you will not have enough money to campaign.
There's also some evidence that these corrupt people in politics and business are actually psychopaths, and they need help. In which case, they should get the help they need.
Something like 5% of all people are psychopaths, though. It's just a fact of life that a large chunk of the population have no inbuilt empathy except that which they develop out of self-interest. You can't really help that.
Something like 5% of all people are psychopaths, though. It's just a fact of life that a large chunk of the population have no inbuilt empathy except that which they develop out of self-interest. You can't really help that.
No, but if we can somehow empirically verify that someone is a psychopath, we can ban them from holding any political power. That may be discriminatory. but I have no personal problem with it. Also, if we round up enough of them, perhaps we can find out the cause and fix it?
I think a way more simple less draconian solution is to extend the term of someone in the house to 4 years and limit them to 2 or 3 terms. Keep the senate at 6 years but limit them to 2. This allows for people to be there long enough to get the hang of things and actually build some power and experience. It gives the house a bit of breathing room so they are not constantly fundraising.
Also change political contributions to only allow entities that can vote in a election (I.E. individuals) to contribute to elections. Make sure all PAC's have to discourse where they got their money from.
Honestly even those changes could lead to unforeseen consequences, but no where as bad as what would happen if what Rubin proposed came around.
Comments
Who do you think is going to be saved in this crisis? I'll give you a clue... not the 9% currently unemployed (actually close to 20% because a vast majority has just given up even trying) or the ones joining them soon.
Answer: The same people that was saved 3 years ago, that's who!
France, German, Italian and Spainish indices are all down more than 5%, with Italy closer to 6%.
Somehow I seriously doubt it was the 99% there, that wanted to be out of work and/or be in debt. (ie as a taxpayer, when private debt by the banks is nationalised to be public debt)
I will laugh it up. As long as people have tumors and aneurysms, I have job security. Plus, your theory is pretty out there anyway, so I'm still not concerned.
Fast forward to 44:57. I believe Obama addressed corruption in congress pretty well during the State of the Union in 2010. Transcripts. This is the core of it, but it continues and addresses other aspects of politician shenanigans.
I mean, look at Ted Stevens. Corrupt as fuck. They even went after him and caught him! Where is he now? Living in luxury probably. Dude should be rotting in jail. Transparency means nothing without justice.
Here's my crazy solution to corruption you are all going to tell me is stupid and wrong. I expect that, but it wouldn't be fun if I didn't open my mouth.
The power to control the government should come at a steep price. Those who wield such power, even those who are not corrupt, should suffer greatly in exchange for that privilege. That is the exchange. Instead, when you are elected to a political position you are lavished with a zillion benefits. Here's how I would fix it.
I would force all elected officials to suffer greatly. If you want to run the country, you will not be allowed to receive any gift whatsoever during the duration of your term. Not even a Christmas present from your children. You have incredible power, it's a fair trade-off. The government will provide you with everything you need. Lodging, food, health care, etc. You will get no luxuries. You're serving the people. You're a public servant, so live like one and not like the monarchs we got rid of.
Absolutely all of your communications will be 100% public. Other than on matters of national security, absolutely no part of your life will be private. All of your letters, phone calls, emails, and everything will be immediately publicly available. Yes, even your calls with your wife and your most private family matters will be public. You want to wield such great power, that is the sacrifice you will make. We won't put actual cameras inside your house, but we will have one on your front door so we know who came to visit, when, and for how long.
If you want to see people at your office, as in lobbyists, you must see them on a first-come first-served basis. People will line up at your office during office hours. You must admit everyone during the office hours in the order they are lined up. If the lobbyist is first in line, so be it. If crazy homeless guy is first in line, so be it. You will not see anyone at lunch because you will eat government food. You've exchanged freedom for power. Money will not prioritize who gets to speak with you or for how long.
You will not be able to take any campaign contribution from a company. You may only take a campaign contribution from an individual taxpaying US citizen. Their name and contribution will be public. There will be a maximum contribution amount per person per election cycle. You may not take a contribution from someone who you do not represent. You can't donate to the campaign fund of the mayor in the next town over. Only your constituents may contribute to your campaign, and only once each. If even one violation is found, you are off and you can never run for office again. Zero tolerance.
And since it is advertising, commercial speech which we can regulate, nobody may purchase any political advertisement period, unless it is with legally acquired campaign funds. You can write and say whatever you want. You can make TV shows and do whatever else you want. Freedom of speech is utmost. But if it is found that political speech was paid for with money, there will be a fine. Write a blog post about the candidate you like. But if someone gave you $1 to write that blog post, that is not fine.
The buyer of the ad and the seller of the ad will both be fined double the cost of the ad. So if it was a $50 ad, each party will be fined $100, for a total of $200. All the money from the fine will go into the campaign fund of the opposition. The actual people running can't really be held responsible for the actions of their supporters, so it wouldn't be fair to punish them if this happens. But if this is found to have happened to too great a degree in a particular election in the winner's favor, then there should be automatic recall elections. Those recall elections shall have a new fundraising period, but the loser will have all the money from the fines as an advantage.
Also, you can't immediately leave congress and get rich. A company might promise you a fancy job after you leave office. That's no problem because all your communications were public. We would know if you had such a promise. And if you did make such a promise, and you went and got a fancy job after leaving office, you go to jail instead!
Also, you must show up to work. Too many congresspeople just aren't there during votes. With obvious exceptions for being sick, everyone must show up where they are supposed to be. If you miss too many committee meetings or votes, you will automatically be sent home with no chance to ever be elected again. If you don't actually want to do the job, someone else will do it instead.
Serving in government should be an honor, a privilege, and a sacrifice. If someone actually wants to serve our country and wield such great power over the lives of hundreds of millions, they should be more than willing to suffer this in the service of the people. It might seem harsh, but it really is a minor amount of suffering compared to the fact that those in the military are risking life and limb. Even firefighters and police risk more than this. If you want the power to declare war and change the course of history without having to risk your own life, then you will instead sacrifice privacy and luxury during your term in office.
I don't know about you, but I would gladly serve in congress under such harsh conditions. The point is to make it very difficult to be corrupt. Make it so that if you are corrupt, you will face justice. And make it so that nobody who is in it for the money will want to serve in the first place. Only those who really want to make the world a better place will be willing to suffer so greatly.
Also, I know this would never happen because it would require a corrupt congress to do this thing to itself. It could happen if there was an actual revolution and the new government instituted and enforced such policies. Perhaps it would make a good political fiction novel.
I'm pretty sure Americans can do a better job then the Pommy rioters.
It's America you guys do everything better! ;-P
I mean his name is David, David Cameron.
David Cameron? He's got two first names...
Jefferson and friends specifically didn't want public office to become an avenue to wealth. They also didn't want a poltitical class to form where we get the same people sitting in Congress for forty years.
I also agree with Scott about harsh punishment. There's some former California representative in jail right now, but he's the only one I can recall who actually had to go to jail.
I'm on my phone right now, so I can't look it up, but what about that Texas bastard, Tom DeLay, who was on "Dancing With the Stars"? Is he in jail yet? He should have been in jail this whole time. He should have been dancing with a wiffle ball bat shoved up his bum.
Let's say a company wants to give a million to candidate X. For the sake of argument, we'll say the maximum donation is ten thousand. That company needs to find 100 people in the candidates jurisdiction and give them ten thousand each. It has to trust those people to give that ten thousand to the candidate when they could just take the money and give the company the finger.
Now they might try to pull a scam. Since the records are public, you can verify if someone donated or not. They can give someone the ten thousand dollars, and then promise to give them twenty thousand if the records show they donated it to the campaign. In effect, bribing people to donate to the campaign of their choice. If they get away with this, it will still be a little bit better since it cost them much more than a million dollars to donate a million dollars to a candidate. You will have to pay the million, plus a hundred bribes. If the limit is five thousand, then they will have to pay two hundred bribes. If they don't get away with it, then both parties are now guilty of political bribery.
It will also actually be somewhat difficult to get away with this. Why? Since the donation is on record with the government, it's on record with the IRS. If it's a large donation on an individual's record, then the IRS will see where that money came from. You are poor on welfare, how did you spare the ten thousand you donated to so-and-so's campaign? There will also be the matter of the corporation's accounting records. Where did these five million dollars go? Can I see some invoices for that? Yeah, that's another factor. It will suck so much to be in a political position, that you will want to quit very quickly.
Another option is exile. People don't get exiled anymore, but it happened back in the day. Napoleon? You tried to fuck up our country, well you can't live here any more. Citizenship revoked! Sit in the airport until you can convince another country to accept you. I kinda like exile because it isn't cruel or unusual. It doesn't ruin the rest of the person's life, like jail or death. It just makes them very unhappy and causes them an incredibly big inconvenience, assuming they actually want to be here.
But seriously, yesterday I went out to help clean up after the riot and it was one of the most uplifting things I have ever done, so many awesome people just wanting to help out. *single man tear*
Lecherous, treacherous, remorseles, fanned villians! Villiany so black it stains their souls with eternal shame!
Seriously, if you live so long at the top of society and then betray society's trust for personal enrichment and aggrandizement, reform is no longer an option that interests me. I'm thinking more along the lines of "red-hot poker up the ass ater being flayed alive supsequent to the trepanning".
Also change political contributions to only allow entities that can vote in a election (I.E. individuals) to contribute to elections. Make sure all PAC's have to discourse where they got their money from.
Honestly even those changes could lead to unforeseen consequences, but no where as bad as what would happen if what Rubin proposed came around.