Comparing the USA to pretty much any other country in the world when it comes to guns is an exercise in futility.
I could point to Switzerland where every adult male has a fully auto military rifle in his home and is trained in how to use it as an way to advocate for more guns, but the USA isn't Switzerland and we don't have the same type of community or culture that they do.
Japan has almost no guns at all and what they do have are highly regulated and not available in any form to civilians, yet it isn't a good basis for an argument to eliminate guns in this country. We could never impose the type of culture that they have there on the US.
Guns make it easier to kill, yet we are seeing lower crime rates than in any years since the 1950's. What is leading to the rise in this type of crime? Guns may play a part, but they are not the real problem and until we solve the real issues and problems in our culture we will not see less mass killing incidents (or explosives, or chemical weapons, or car's used in crimes, or knives, or bats etc etc etc).
While I'm not generally in favor of a lot of things like registration and whatnot, we could still increase background checks, and possibly do them with ammo as well.
Hmmm, perhaps we can solve this with technology. GPS chip register each gun and have it throw alarms when it enters certain areas? Complete brain dead idea, but why not?
They could want us to have our modern technology, but not freely available to just anyone.
I think very few people - and practically no people who are sane and sensible - are actually arguing for that. Most pro-gun people I know - including me - are 100% for strict regulation and control of firearms. The difference is not wanting them banned, and having reglations that are reasonable and sensible, rather than "Well, we won't BAN guns, but here's the next best thing."
But honestly, I don't care what the Founders thought. This is our country, and we need to figure out what's best for it. The opinions of men who have been dead for 200 years don't carry a lot of weight with me.
Tell that to the Republicans and big-L Libertarians.
Real talk: I lived in the UK for a year. I never once saw a gun other than break-action shotguns in shop windows. I never felt unsafe, I never worried about strays or mass shootings.
Maybe it's time we stop equating "the ability to murder anyone who seems suspect" with "safety."
On the flip side, I got stabbed in the UK. Also, ever since I was a kid, my dream career was to be a gunsmith, before I even knew the word "Gunsmith". To do so in my country is effectively impossible now, however - You cannot get an apprenticeship in it, except in literally three places who are not really taking on anyone. There is no such job as a "Gunsmith", either - a gunsmith has to have a commercial premises, tools, certifications, an ABN, training, and so on. You can't get half of that without working in the industry(already practically impossible), but you can't work in the industry without having those things, a catch 22.
The industry is shrinking as old gunsmiths die, and no new blood is coming in - and this is despite the fact that last year we imported more guns than we ever destroyed in a multi-year firearm buyback program, and the amount of licensed people grows rapidly every year.
That is what unreasonable regulation looks like. And don't even get me started on the airsoft ban.
Hmmm, perhaps we can solve this with technology. GPS chip register each gun and have it throw alarms when it enters certain areas? Complete brain dead idea, but why not?
While the conspiracy theorists and the HURR DURR OBUMMER CUMMIN TO TEK UR GURNZ section of the republican party would freak the fuck out at even the suggestion, I can't actually see how that would be a bad plan. It's certainly workable, though I won't say it's likely going to be entirely without kinks that need to be worked out.
Hmmm, perhaps we can solve this with technology. GPS chip register each gun and have it throw alarms when it enters certain areas? Complete brain dead idea, but why not?
People will just stuff guns in antistatic bags until they're where they want to be.
@Churba: Yeah, knife crime is still a huge problem. People suck and will probably always try to kill other people. Might as well make it somewhat difficult, though.
Tell that to the Republicans and big-L Libertarians.
I try. They don't listen. I mean, these people think that 2000-year-old documents are 100% relevant today. 200 years ago? That's like modern day to these people.
@Churba: Yeah, knife crime is still a huge problem. People suck and will probably always try to kill other people. Might as well make it somewhat difficult, though.
Except, it's not. In fact, it's pretty easy to get a rifle or a shotgun in the UK, provided you submit the appropriate paperwork, and can pass the relevant background checks. It's just that nobody bothers to do so, except for serious enthusiasts who could be bothered with the outlay expense and trouble(since gun shops are not exactly abundant, nor are retailers to get the required storage gear to keep your own firearms in your home) and hunters. Hell, I could have done it, and I'm not even a citizen.
I try. They don't listen. I mean, these people think that 2000-year-old documents are 100% relevant today. 200 years ago? That's like modern day to these people.
If it's any consolation, they don't really listen to anyone who 1)Doesn't have an (R) after their job title, 2)Isn't Ayn Rand, or 3)doesn't just tell them exactly what they want to hear anyway.
This is a symptom of a larger issue. This is why large scale, easily accessible and affordable health care is sooo important, especially mental health. We definitely need stronger regulation and control of gun sales, especially since the NRA or industry groups have repeatedly failed to self-regulate.
So it would trip if I left it in my safe? Or if I went hunting in the middle of nowhere with it?
Complete brain dead idea
The point was not to make a completely reasonable and sound proposal, but merely shift the direction away from bans and sales restrictions to novel approaches to actually solving the issue.
Japan has almost no guns at all and what they do have are highly regulated and not available in any form to civilians, yet it isn't a good basis for an argument to eliminate guns in this country. We could never impose the type of culture that they have there on the US.
Fascinatingly, they are the reverse of Switzerland or Israel - They have no guns, but they have a Gun Culture, indulged through entertainment media(like manga, anime, novels, so on), airsoft, and enthusiast press.
My main issue with the gun control is mostly registration because I just don't feel like its really mine if I have to register it. That being said, if taking an extra background check or doing an extra form somehow saved some lives then fine. I'd rather be inconvenienced if it meant that lives would be saved. I do think that really its our society that is the problem. For some reason Americans just keep killing each other, regardless of the tool used.
So it would trip if I left it in my safe? Or if I went hunting in the middle of nowhere with it?
Complete brain dead idea
The point was not to make a completely reasonable and sound proposal, but merely shift the direction away from bans and sales restrictions to novel approaches to actually solving the issue.
My work is adopting an "RF scanner" system that automatically sends up a red flag if any guns are out of the designated storage and service areas for more than 5 minutes. I'm not sure quite how the technical end of it functions but we should be able to match the chips to the gun's individual serial numbers. If it works out well I'd love to see a immersible system mandated for dealers and armories. I Just don't think it would work for individual citizens.
Can someone paint a demonstrably worse picture of the United States with restricted gun sales that doesn't devolve into Red Dawn fantasies?
That depends on how you define restricted, and what you consider worse.
My main issue with the gun control is mostly registration because I just don't feel like its really mine if I have to register it.
You have to register your car, don't you? And It's not like your VIN is not on file in multiple places.
I feel I'm in an odd position, on gun control. I'm absolutely against banning firearms. But I'm simultaneously FOR stricter controls and more practical and useful regulations on firearms, along the "If you want a firearm, you have to prove you are mentally stable and healthy" sort of stuff, and "Your firearm is registered with the US government, and they must be notified when you transfer that ownership elsewhere", rather than "Bolt actions only, no semi-autos, no full Autos!".
Is it wrong that I have a lot of Red Dawn Fantasies......
//and not just the new one with Thor in it :-p
I don't have Red Dawn fantasies, that's just silly. I have Tomorrow when the War Began fantasies.
If you take away guns, then I won't have feelings of freedom. If I don't have feelings of freedom, then I have no America. And that's bullshit, according to television.
Number one reason to get rid of guns is so that this same flamewar stops erupting every time someone shoots a bunch of people. Can we please talk about some nerdy things instead?
I think we should ban guns, but gunswords should be perfectly legal and unregulated, as they are a weapon that requires much grace and skill to wield properly. And anyone who is trained to wield one will also know to observe honorable use at all times.
To be fair, I think we need some statistical analysis to figure out what/where the problem lies. Overall crime is down, and violent crime specifically is also at a low. We hear about mass shootings more - but are more actually ocurring? It's the food recall problem.
Maybe we are actually decreasing death tolls, but the remaining crimes are necessarily more shocking. We may be looking at somewhere near the baseline for untreated mental illness in our population.
Number one reason to get rid of guns is so that this same flamewar stops erupting every time someone shoots a bunch of people. Can we please talk about some nerdy things instead?
But can't everything be nerdy, even guns? Or even ARGUING about guns?
To be fair, I think we need some statistical analysis to figure out what/where the problem lies. Overall crime is down, and violent crime specifically is also at a low. We hear about mass shootings more - but are more actually ocurring? It's the food recall problem.
Maybe we are actually decreasing death tolls, but the remaining crimes are necessarily more shocking. We may be looking at somewhere near the baseline for untreated mental illness in our population.
I'd be very interested in an un-bias study of this. Also, from my understanding, mass shootings are more often spawned by heavy media coverage of recent similar events. Wonder if yesterday's shooting influenced this shooter at all...
Nerdy question: We know how most of us feel about gun control now. How would we feel about gun control in the future?
Imagine if phasers from Star-trek existed? Would the existence of weapons that could vaporize a victim and be used as powerful improvised explosives change anyone's views? Should regular folks be allowed to have them? Would the police and military being equipped with such devices change the way people view weapons from our current level of technology?
I think that gun control is kind of secondary to public mental health care, honestly. Sane gun owners don't wake up and say, "Gee, this hunk of metal makes me want to kill everyone and then myself."
Yup, and bombs aren't that hard to make so crazy people could still find other ways to do crazy shit. We need to de-stigmatize mental illness and give them easily accessible treatment so maybe we won't have people wanting to do this shit in the first place.
Comments
I could point to Switzerland where every adult male has a fully auto military rifle in his home and is trained in how to use it as an way to advocate for more guns, but the USA isn't Switzerland and we don't have the same type of community or culture that they do.
Japan has almost no guns at all and what they do have are highly regulated and not available in any form to civilians, yet it isn't a good basis for an argument to eliminate guns in this country. We could never impose the type of culture that they have there on the US.
Guns make it easier to kill, yet we are seeing lower crime rates than in any years since the 1950's. What is leading to the rise in this type of crime? Guns may play a part, but they are not the real problem and until we solve the real issues and problems in our culture we will not see less mass killing incidents (or explosives, or chemical weapons, or car's used in crimes, or knives, or bats etc etc etc).
The industry is shrinking as old gunsmiths die, and no new blood is coming in - and this is despite the fact that last year we imported more guns than we ever destroyed in a multi-year firearm buyback program, and the amount of licensed people grows rapidly every year.
That is what unreasonable regulation looks like. And don't even get me started on the airsoft ban. While the conspiracy theorists and the HURR DURR OBUMMER CUMMIN TO TEK UR GURNZ section of the republican party would freak the fuck out at even the suggestion, I can't actually see how that would be a bad plan. It's certainly workable, though I won't say it's likely going to be entirely without kinks that need to be worked out.
@Churba: Yeah, knife crime is still a huge problem. People suck and will probably always try to kill other people. Might as well make it somewhat difficult, though.
Fascinatingly, they are the reverse of Switzerland or Israel - They have no guns, but they have a Gun Culture, indulged through entertainment media(like manga, anime, novels, so on), airsoft, and enthusiast press.
That depends on how you define restricted, and what you consider worse.
//and not just the new one with Thor in it :-p
I feel I'm in an odd position, on gun control. I'm absolutely against banning firearms. But I'm simultaneously FOR stricter controls and more practical and useful regulations on firearms, along the "If you want a firearm, you have to prove you are mentally stable and healthy" sort of stuff, and "Your firearm is registered with the US government, and they must be notified when you transfer that ownership elsewhere", rather than "Bolt actions only, no semi-autos, no full Autos!". I don't have Red Dawn fantasies, that's just silly. I have Tomorrow when the War Began fantasies.
Maybe we are actually decreasing death tolls, but the remaining crimes are necessarily more shocking. We may be looking at somewhere near the baseline for untreated mental illness in our population.
Imagine if phasers from Star-trek existed? Would the existence of weapons that could vaporize a victim and be used as powerful improvised explosives change anyone's views? Should regular folks be allowed to have them? Would the police and military being equipped with such devices change the way people view weapons from our current level of technology?
Shooters mother was a teacher. He killed her and the kids in her class before moving on to kill others.
Other suspect is his younger brother.
Guns purchased legally .
His.father is also now dead and his girlfriend is missing.