Thaed, want to come onto GeekNights and have ourselves a roundtable discussion? I miss debating with you on FNPL. (Note that I haven't weighed in here in this slightly-uncivil thread).
American Indians is the preferred term, according to the Associated Press.
OK.
Fun fact: I've met numerous people in the UK who think that "Red Indian" is not only acceptable parlance, but are shocked that we don't say it in the US. Same thing with when you explain that "Eskimo" is sometimes pejorative and that there are, in fact, many different tribes of Inuit, Inupiat, Yupik, and Aleut peoples, and that other tribes of Amerindians exist in the north (Tlingit, etc).
Whoa, for reals? That's kinda sad. I usually say Indian, or American Indian, because that's what my friends of Native American heritage called themselves. Or, if you know someone's tribe, like "She's Seneca." or "He's Coeur d'Alene." I actually like the blanket term Canada uses for it's various tribes is "First Nations." It's kind of PC, but I guess I like the way it sounds, especially since tribes will often be called Something-Nation.
There's nothing wrong with being PC. People act like it's these huge restriction on free speech or some bullshit, but the quality of our thoughts and the strength of our convictions are only as good as the language we use to express it. There's nothing wrong with trying to regulate your own use of language to avoid offending people. (calling others out on it, however, can be a more delicate affair.)
There's nothing wrong with being PC. People act like it's these huge restriction on free speech or some bullshit, but the quality of our thoughts and the strength of our convictions are only as good as the language we use to express it. There's nothing wrong with trying to regulate your own use of language to avoid offending people. (calling others out on it, however, can be a more delicate affair.)
I actually disagree, but not because I think it's bad to use reasonable terms instead of pejoratives. I disagree because there are some people who go SO FAR to be PC that they end up looking like douchebags. I mean, if you are trying really hard not to offend people by what you are saying, then maybe you shouldn't be saying it at all. Maybe you ARE a racist jerk, and are just trying not to look like it.
Let's take "black," for example.
It pisses me off when I hear people avoid using black as a description, or when someone haughtily corrects it: "I believe African-American is the preferred term." Well guess what, that's not accurate. You can be white and still be an African-American. There are white people in Africa. When people can't even describe someone by saying they are black, there's a problem. Your race and ethnicity shouldn't be an insult, so we shouldn't have to avoid describing someone by their race or ethnicity. Black people don't care that you call them black, as long as you are not using it as an insult. If they do take it as an insult when it's clearly not, then they have some serious self-hating issues.
If I'm trying to point out a friend, and he is the only black guy in the room, you'd better believe I'm going to use the color of his skin as an identifying characteristic. It's the most effective way to identify him. That has nothing to do with whether I think the color of his skin impacts his abilities, but for some reason it has become part of PC culture to avoid pointing out someone's race even for totally legit reasons. And that's bullshit.
American Indians is the preferred term, according to the Associated Press.
OK.
Fun fact: I've met numerous people in the UK who think that "Red Indian" is not only acceptable parlance, but are shocked that we don't say it in the US. Same thing with when you explain that "Eskimo" is sometimes pejorative and that there are, in fact, many different tribes of Inuit, Inupiat, Yupik, and Aleut peoples, and that other tribes of Amerindians exist in the north (Tlingit, etc).
Whoa, for reals? That's kinda sad. I usually say Indian, or American Indian, because that's what my friends of Native American heritage called themselves. Or, if you know someone's tribe, like "She's Seneca." or "He's Coeur d'Alene." I actually like the blanket term Canada uses for it's various tribes is "First Nations." It's kind of PC, but I guess I like the way it sounds, especially since tribes will often be called Something-Nation.
I do as well, seeing as Illinois has a pretty high population of Amerindian peoples for a state that's relatively far east in terms of today's tribal distributions. Here it's a bit different, though; I can sort of understand why correct terminology would have fallen by the wayside here, because while we deal with the effects of our treatment of the American Indians every day in the US, the last time anyone British would have cared was back in 1776. It's similar to the usage of the term "Aborigine" to describe indigenous Australians; you hear it used pretty frequently in the US, but as I understand it, certain Australians think it carries negative connotations.
On the flipside, note that for every handful of people here that I've met who think that "Red indian" or making woo-woo sounds are okay, there's one person who knows that that is seriously fucked up and not alright. On the opposite side of that, note that I've also heard Asians called "Orientals" here. So yeah, the correctness of racial parlance is very much something that seems to be subjective.
Just remember that you are dealing with students and that isn't really a good group to canvas from.
Very true, though I heard "Orientals" several times from the mouth of a tour guide who was in her 60s or 70s and sure as shit should've known better. One of my friends is Chinese, and he was pissed off.
It's similar to the usage of the term "Aborigine" to describe indigenous Australians; you hear it used pretty frequently in the US, but as I understand it, certain Australians think it carries negative connotations.
Not really, no. It's a pretty acceptable term, in fact, more commonly used than "Indigenous Australian", mostly for simplicity's sake. For example, most people would self-identify as being aboriginal or as having aboriginal blood, Most people refer to the group, when not speaking formally, as aborigines, and so on. Even Blackfellas is a pretty acceptable term, along with it's opposite, Whitefellas. Don't worry, though we have our own group of offensive terms - Abos, boongs, coons, darkies, Gols, and so on.
That said, the term is not formally used. Most anything written by the government, many news organisations/outlets, and many entertainment programs(particularly if they air on the ABC or SBS) will use "Indigenous Australian."
On the flipside, note that for every handful of people here that I've met who think that "Red indian" or making woo-woo sounds are okay, there's one person who knows that that is seriously fucked up and not alright. On the opposite side of that, note that I've also heard Asians called "Orientals" here. So yeah, the correctness of racial parlance is very much something that seems to be subjective.
There is somewhat of a reason for that - as you might have observed, when you refer to someone as "Asian" in the UK, most people will think you mean Middle eastern, not east Asian. Some people will be very careful and always say "east asian", but most people just said Oriental to keep it simple.
To be honest, I've never seen a more politely racist and genially xenophobic country as England. Irony being, they tend to accuse the US and Australia of being far more racist than they are.
Black is the the preferred term, according to the Associated Press.
I'm aware, but we tend to differ from the stylebook on that one - we go with the "Style Manual: For Authors, Editors and Printers" - an Australian publication, rather than the American AP stylebook. We use both, but rely on the former more than the latter for things more common to Australia.
That said, the term is used, but not nearly as much.
"''[x] is the preferred [y], according to the associated press' is the preferred meme, according to the associated press' is the preferred meme, according to the associated press."
I actually added the alt text. It's just not working for some reason.
Because the alt attribute is used for an alternative to the image, in case it fails to load for some reason. Internet Explorer abuses it as title, but the actual title attribute is meant for that purpose, and Firefox uses it correctly.
Very true, though I heard "Orientals" several times from the mouth of a tour guide who was in her 60s or 70s and sure as shit should've known better. One of my friends is Chinese, and he was pissed off.
I've heard the term Orientals used by a number of older/middle aged people in the US. I actually called a midwestern Aunt of mine out about it, and told her that she should use the term Asian instead. She got kinda annoyed at me for being all snotty-big-city-PC. Also, I was complaining about the grocery store sushi at the time, so that could have contributed to the accusations, but even so, that shall not stand, not from my relations.
I dislike ethnic terms that use geography as a marker. For example, I doubt Thaed's kids have citizenship in any Asian nation. It's possible, I suppose, but unlikely.
Ethnic labels are annoying anyway because we're all fucking. So at what point do our kids stop being black, white, Latino, etc.? If you're only one-eighth black, people will still call you black and that to me defies logic.
I dislike ethnic terms that use geography as a marker. For example, I doubt Thaed's kids have citizenship in any Asian nation. It's possible, I suppose, but unlikely.
Ethnic labels are annoying anyway because we're all fucking. So at what point do our kids stop being black, white, Latino, etc.? If you're only one-eighth black, people will still call you black and that to me defies logic.
Has anyone calculated when the entire world population will just be brownish? A few millennia?
I dislike ethnic terms that use geography as a marker. For example, I doubt Thaed's kids have citizenship in any Asian nation. It's possible, I suppose, but unlikely.
However, certain physical traits are often associated with the geographical location where they developed, as long as we are conscious of race we will probably still use these place descriptors no matter where someone is born to describe appearance. It probably will eventually go away.
Ethnic labels are annoying anyway because we're all fucking. So at what point do our kids stop being black, white, Latino, etc.? If you're only one-eighth black, people will still call you black and that to me defies logic.
I think at this point race is less about your actual genetic heritage and more about what you identify as culturally and what others perceive you as from your looks. I have friends who are half white and half Japanese, born in the US, who look fairly Caucasian but identify their race as Asian. There are people like Rym, who has a good portion of American Indian heritage, but calls himself a "white guy." I am in small part Eastern Indian/Asian, but no one would consider me Indian, even though I have that in my ancestry. I do sometimes check "other" on forms, because even though I'm pretty much Nordic, there are other things in there as well, and also it's kind of a fun protest along the lines of what you are saying. I think race is much more a cultural identity than anything else.
Comments
I usually say Indian, or American Indian, because that's what my friends of Native American heritage called themselves. Or, if you know someone's tribe, like "She's Seneca." or "He's Coeur d'Alene."
I actually like the blanket term Canada uses for it's various tribes is "First Nations." It's kind of PC, but I guess I like the way it sounds, especially since tribes will often be called Something-Nation.
Let's take "black," for example.
It pisses me off when I hear people avoid using black as a description, or when someone haughtily corrects it: "I believe African-American is the preferred term." Well guess what, that's not accurate. You can be white and still be an African-American. There are white people in Africa. When people can't even describe someone by saying they are black, there's a problem. Your race and ethnicity shouldn't be an insult, so we shouldn't have to avoid describing someone by their race or ethnicity. Black people don't care that you call them black, as long as you are not using it as an insult. If they do take it as an insult when it's clearly not, then they have some serious self-hating issues.
If I'm trying to point out a friend, and he is the only black guy in the room, you'd better believe I'm going to use the color of his skin as an identifying characteristic. It's the most effective way to identify him. That has nothing to do with whether I think the color of his skin impacts his abilities, but for some reason it has become part of PC culture to avoid pointing out someone's race even for totally legit reasons. And that's bullshit.
On the flipside, note that for every handful of people here that I've met who think that "Red indian" or making woo-woo sounds are okay, there's one person who knows that that is seriously fucked up and not alright. On the opposite side of that, note that I've also heard Asians called "Orientals" here. So yeah, the correctness of racial parlance is very much something that seems to be subjective.
That said, the term is not formally used. Most anything written by the government, many news organisations/outlets, and many entertainment programs(particularly if they air on the ABC or SBS) will use "Indigenous Australian." There is somewhat of a reason for that - as you might have observed, when you refer to someone as "Asian" in the UK, most people will think you mean Middle eastern, not east Asian. Some people will be very careful and always say "east asian", but most people just said Oriental to keep it simple.
To be honest, I've never seen a more politely racist and genially xenophobic country as England. Irony being, they tend to accuse the US and Australia of being far more racist than they are.
That said, the term is used, but not nearly as much.
Ethnic labels are annoying anyway because we're all fucking. So at what point do our kids stop being black, white, Latino, etc.? If you're only one-eighth black, people will still call you black and that to me defies logic.