I think they just have better bargaining because they have more people.
I know how insurance works in theory; I am wondering how its ineffectiveness effects premiums and costs. Anecdotally, it seems the ones that screw customers over also tend to offer lower premiums, which makes sense, since they secretly offer less service. But how does that reflect on the cost-side? Do insurance co.s ask hospitals for unacceptably low costs, refusing to cover anything higher? If the hospital refuses the low price, and the insurance refuses to cover the regular price, the insured becomes essentially uninsured, may be unable to pay, and the hospital has to up the price to cover that loss. So bargaining is increasingly likely to fail, and premiums for insurance that actually covers things goes up?
You can debate this all year if you like, but you look childish and ignorant to the rest of the world when you do. This is a solved problem. Socialized healthcare works. Period. Better outcomes, healthier populations, lower costs. There are outliers, but those outliers are generally exotic procedures and rare conditions that can still be treated at private, for profit hospitals. There's no reason both can't exist (and do exist just about everywhere worth mentioning except the US.)
I think they just have better bargaining because they have more people.
I know how insurance works in theory; I am wondering how its ineffectiveness effects premiums and costs. Anecdotally, it seems the ones that screw customers over also tend to offer lower premiums, which makes sense, since they secretly offer less service. But how does that reflect on the cost-side? Do insurance co.s ask hospitals for unacceptably low costs, refusing to cover anything higher? If the hospital refuses the low price, and the insurance refuses to cover the regular price, the insured becomes essentially uninsured, may be unable to pay, and the hospital has to up the price to cover that loss. So bargaining is increasingly likely to fail, and premiums for insurance that actually covers things goes up?
Different kinds of insurance work different ways. It's crazy complicated.
That being said, if you have insurance the situation of essentially being uninsured won't happen. Let's say your insurance is willing to pay $100 for procedure X. The hospital you go to accepts your insurance. What if that hospital decides procedure X costs $200? You will likely get a bill for $100 depending on how your plan works.
If you were uninsured the hospital will just bill you directly. The bill they give you will be for $500 or for $1000. Uninsured people pay higher prices. It's like if two people checked out of the grocery store. One has insurance, one does not. They both scan the same box of Rice Krispies at the check out. Different prices show up because one guy has insurance (club card). That is the bargaining power of insurance.
That is also why single payer socialized medicine works. The entire country decides what it will pay for everything and the doctors and hospitals and pharmaceutical companies don't have much choice because they are bargaining with everybody at once. That's why the US pays more for medicine than any other country. Our prices are so high because we are bad at negotiating.
This ruling is a GREAT reason for all you Liberal youths to overcome your voter apathy and get out and vote for Obama in 2012. The Republicans are going to be one massive wall of rage in November just DYING to repeal this law.
Fortunately, all of the voting-age Americans on this forum are motivated enough to vote anyways. I never intended not to, as long as I remember to order my absentee ballot.
You can debate this all year if you like, but you look childish and ignorant to the rest of the world when you do. This is a solved problem. Socialized healthcare works. Period. Better outcomes, healthier populations, lower costs. There are outliers, but those outliers are generally exotic procedures and rare conditions that can still be treated at private, for profit hospitals. There's no reason both can't exist (and do exist just about everywhere worth mentioning except the US.)
Not debating this? I happen to benefit from Japanese National health care & I like it.
If you were uninsured the hospital will just bill you directly. The bill they give you will be for $500 or for $1000. Uninsured people pay higher prices. It's like if two people checked out of the grocery store. One has insurance, one does not. They both scan the same box of Rice Krispies at the check out. Different prices show up because one guy has insurance (club card). That is the bargaining power of insurance.
I remember hearing something about hospitals charging different insurers and uninsured different amounts to compensate for unpaid care. The box of rice crispies is priced differently depending on who you are. I am wondering how that fits in relation to how much insurers actually cover (procedure-wise), the true costs, the price each insurance will pay. This is more complicated than your analogies allow for.
Japan negotiates national mandated prices for all drugs and procedures on, I believe, an annual basis. Everyone pays the same price, and everyone is required to have insurance.
Further, insurance companies have limits on the profits they can maintain, and are forced by law to reduce premiums if their profits rise too high.
Living in Georgia, unfortunately my vote won't affect anything. Too many podunk religious people that don't realize these changes would actually benefit them. I'm voting anyway, to make a point, and so that I can say I tried. Sigh. -_-
Japan negotiates national mandated prices for all drugs and procedures on, I believe, an annual basis. Everyone pays the same price, and everyone is required to have insurance.
Further, insurance companies have limits on the profits they can maintain, and are forced by law to reduce premiums if their profits rise too high.
Yeah, it's awesome. Although, a lot of other things (EDIT: in the Japanese government) are not -_-
EDIT: And they reimburse out of country medical expenses.
I have a crazy idea. Forget the "Free State Project" or whatever. Why don't all the poor/shiftless Occupy people, hipsters, and everyone who's free to move easily all converge in, say, Ohio, and flip the state? An organized movement to take over a swing state.
That would have more effect than almost anything else we could do on the presidential elections.
I have a crazy idea. Forget the "Free State Project" or whatever. Why don't all the poor/shiftless Occupy people, hipsters, and everyone who's free to move easily all converge in, say, Ohio, and flip the state? An organized movement to take over a swing state.
That would have more effect than almost anything else we could do on the presidential elections.
Did you read that Texas GOP platform on the other thread? There was a clause about overturning the Voter Rights Act of 1965. I bet Koch bros would channel monies into "Voter Fraud Reform" FAST.
I have a crazy idea. Forget the "Free State Project" or whatever. Why don't all the poor/shiftless Occupy people, hipsters, and everyone who's free to move easily all converge in, say, Ohio, and flip the state? An organized movement to take over a swing state.
That would have more effect than almost anything else we could do on the presidential elections.
You move to OHIO first big mouth. I have a better idea. Use dynamite to make Manhattan float around on its own. Put sails on the skyscrapers. Bring it down south to Florida.
You move to OHIO first big mouth. I have a better idea. Use dynamite to make Manhattan float around on its own. Put sails on the skyscrapers. Bring it down south to Florida.
Just have all the liberal bohemians, free spirits, and shiftless slackers all move there. ^_~
Japan negotiates national mandated prices for all drugs and procedures on, I believe, an annual basis. Everyone pays the same price, and everyone is required to have insurance.
Further, insurance companies have limits on the profits they can maintain, and are forced by law to reduce premiums if their profits rise too high.
Switzerland also has a very similar system. In fact, it's actually similar to the ACA in that it's up to the individual to purchase insurance, but the government strictly regulates the companies and puts caps on total out of pocket expenses.
Living in Georgia, unfortunately my vote won't affect anything. Too many podunk religious people that don't realize these changes would actually benefit them. I'm voting anyway, to make a point, and so that I can say I tried. Sigh. -_-
I understand the sentiment but I'm willing to bet there's far more liberal votes in Georgia than are generally expected. Potentially, anyway.
Young people in red states are generally convinced they can't change the tidal wave of stupid, which works to their detriment.
Living in Georgia, unfortunately my vote won't affect anything. Too many podunk religious people that don't realize these changes would actually benefit them. I'm voting anyway, to make a point, and so that I can say I tried. Sigh. -_-
I understand the sentiment but I'm willing to bet there's far more liberal votes in Georgia than are generally expected. Potentially, anyway.
Young people in red states are generally convinced they can't change the tidal wave of stupid, which works to their detriment.
It's an understandable ennui, though.
Having lived in the South for a while, it is a rare moment of celebration when a friend stops drinking the kool-aid. Nothing unifies a group as well as perceived persecution.
Living in Georgia, unfortunately my vote won't affect anything. Too many podunk religious people that don't realize these changes would actually benefit them. I'm voting anyway, to make a point, and so that I can say I tried. Sigh. -_-
I understand the sentiment but I'm willing to bet there's far more liberal votes in Georgia than are generally expected. Potentially, anyway.
Young people in red states are generally convinced they can't change the tidal wave of stupid, which works to their detriment.
It's an understandable ennui, though.
As a naive Northeasterner, I was always under the impression that the discontent liberals of conservative states either move to the coasts, or stay in their small, liberal, urban bubbles where they unapologetically benefit from a fiscally conservative state government and socially liberal local government (see Houston, Texas; Chicago, Illinois; or most of California).
And Rym, the problem with your idea is the occupy people who would move to Ohio collectively don't want to play the election game the same way. To them, democrats are still too conservative and impotent. They're looking for dramatic reform, and two or three Ohio representatives won't necessarily do it. Rabbling seems to be much, much more effective.
Maybe they know a decision against Obamacare had real potential to convert portions of the OWS protests (which are ubiquitous and ignored by the media) into riots.
Comments
In America, the market comes to free you . . . of your life.
That being said, if you have insurance the situation of essentially being uninsured won't happen. Let's say your insurance is willing to pay $100 for procedure X. The hospital you go to accepts your insurance. What if that hospital decides procedure X costs $200? You will likely get a bill for $100 depending on how your plan works.
If you were uninsured the hospital will just bill you directly. The bill they give you will be for $500 or for $1000. Uninsured people pay higher prices. It's like if two people checked out of the grocery store. One has insurance, one does not. They both scan the same box of Rice Krispies at the check out. Different prices show up because one guy has insurance (club card). That is the bargaining power of insurance.
That is also why single payer socialized medicine works. The entire country decides what it will pay for everything and the doctors and hospitals and pharmaceutical companies don't have much choice because they are bargaining with everybody at once. That's why the US pays more for medicine than any other country. Our prices are so high because we are bad at negotiating.
The result of that? Probably massive premium increases in red states...
They're motivated, you have to be, too.
Further, insurance companies have limits on the profits they can maintain, and are forced by law to reduce premiums if their profits rise too high.
EDIT: And they reimburse out of country medical expenses.
I have a crazy idea. Forget the "Free State Project" or whatever. Why don't all the poor/shiftless Occupy people, hipsters, and everyone who's free to move easily all converge in, say, Ohio, and flip the state? An organized movement to take over a swing state.
That would have more effect than almost anything else we could do on the presidential elections.
Also, for the record, my kid is going to kick the future's ass.
Young people in red states are generally convinced they can't change the tidal wave of stupid, which works to their detriment.
It's an understandable ennui, though.
And Rym, the problem with your idea is the occupy people who would move to Ohio collectively don't want to play the election game the same way. To them, democrats are still too conservative and impotent. They're looking for dramatic reform, and two or three Ohio representatives won't necessarily do it. Rabbling seems to be much, much more effective.