God damn you people! No, I will not take a different elevator if there's a female in it. If said female says "I don't like men taking the same elevator as me, will you take the stairs?", it's likely I'll punch her in the face.
And open_sketchbook/Lyddi, from a third party perspective, it really feels like you are saying every male should feel guilty because rape exists.
This doesn't seem to be nearly as big of a problem outside of geek-circles, especially among guys. If a guy gives me a lewd comment or vice versa, and I tell him I'm not interested, he'll drop it, continue to converse with me like a human being, probably apologize, then we'll part ways. You don't hold a cat in front of your face and go "No~ protect me Mr. Cat! Haha, aren't I cute?" (I'm not commenting on the PAX enforcer story, I'm only stealing a scenario from it, and switching out the characters with ones that better fit in my example)
As for being scared when walking past shady-looking fellows at night, while I'd believe it's commonly a more extreme fear among women, guys totally have that too. I once, as I was walking to a bus stop at night, walked past two, young, thug-y-looking dudes who were yelling and being pushy with each other. They both went quiet and walked as far out of the way as possible as I passed by them. Made me feel pretty badass =P
If I had walked past either of those dudes at night in a different occasion, I'd for sure also try to avoid them, or maybe cross the street. I didn't pay them much mind in this case because while it was dark and no one was around, it was a pretty public area.
Most of what I have to say on that sort of situation - other than trying to divert the argument unsuccessfully - is that I figure a boyish grin covers a multitude of sins, and this is no exception. If someone seems to be a little nervous while I'm about, I normally just give them a boyish grin, maybe a bit of a cheery "Heya!" and go back to politely ignoring them, maybe with a bit of brief conversation, if they seem up to it. I don't really need to do it, but I like to, you meet interesting people by just having a chat.
You know, when I started this argument all I wanted to make clear is that it's understandable and okay that women are nervous around men and that I want to be accommodating to that. I do have a little bit of guilt over the issue but it's not general guilt; it's very specifically a situation from my younger days when I, personally, failed to stop a sexual assault. It messed me up pretty bad, there was therapy and stuff. I'm not going to claim it gave me any special viewpoint, but I was certainly made aware of the fact that, yes, men can be pretty scary to women. That's not something any one particular man or woman is responsible for; men as a group do terrible things to women as a group and it fucks over every single individual involved and it sucks. There are things men can do to make it easier for women which really doesn't cost us anything and seeing as we're all suck in this shitty boat together I think it's a good idea we do them, and that we are understanding, as our lack of understanding only makes it worse.
Look, I did hate myself for this stuff at one point. I was suicidal, I wrote up plans for harming myself and others. I cut myself a bit. I hated society, my parents, my friends, everyone. And then I grew up a bit and realized that hating people didn't actually make anyone's lives any better. So I started working on that instead. I learned to love myself and to respect others, and it is because of that respect that I do not whitewash the truth in this situation.
Women's fears are not unfounded.
It is not on them as the victims of these crimes to feel less victimized. It is not on those who fear these things happening to feel less fear, especially when so many of us tell them to fear it yet blame them for not taking precautions. There is a gross feedback loop in society that tells women that it is their own fault if they are raped, but not to be afraid of the people who might rape them because it will make them feel bad. As men (as a group) don't seem to be letting up on the whole rape thing anytime soon, it means that we have to try to make things easier for the survivors and the people who fear victimization.
I am not a rapist, so I cannot change what rapists do, but I do have things I can do in my own life to make other people more comfortable. Avoid being alone in an enclosed space with a woman. Keep my hands visible. Avoid interacting with women I don't know if I have another option. Don't presume all women on the street want to talk to me. Don't make stupid catcalls or random compliments to women I don't know. Pay close attention to personal space. Respect boundaries and clear lines of consent. Don't get drunk enough that I can no longer trust my own judgement, learn to recognize if she's too drunk to use hers. Don't make rape jokes. Don't blame the victim for their ordeal. When walking behind a woman at night, slow down or switch sides of the street.
These things don't cost me anything; all it does it make the incredible assumption that women are not mind readers and cannot judge my intentions accurately, and respect that I pose a potential threat to them. It's not much different from avoiding wearing a ski mask anywhere but skiing. Yes, I have a right to wear a ski mask where ever the fuck I please, but by avoiding doing so of my own volition I make the people around me more comfortable because I no longer look like I might mug them. As I am not a dick, I generally want to make people feel more at ease, not less.
I still don't buy "most men are jerks/abusive/negative descriptor."
I'm not saying most men are bad people. Too many, yes. But not most. Some. The problem is that a person who does not know you can't know which one you are, so it's reasonable for them to cautious considering how much harm can come to them if they are not. You were the only one here saying that "most" or "all" men are bad or deserve to feel guilty.
Not my fault, not your fault, just the fault of stupid memes perpetrated by a stupid and archaic society.
However, having this conversation with you assholes has made me realize I was wrong all along. Men are scum and I can't wait until women wise up to it and wipe us out. It'll be everything we deserve.
However, having this conversation with you assholes has made me realize I was wrong all along. Men are scum and I can't wait until women wise up to it and wipe us out. It'll be everything we deserve.
Excellent sarcasm, chap. As bitter, cutting remarks go, they'll be a passing mark, especially with the good use of irony.
I did not try to argue that rape is statistically insignificant or not a problem. I said that there's not a chance that 1 in 5 men are rapists. Lyddi you certainly did argue that men ought to act quiet and ashamed of their maleness in order to appease your fears, and Ro I certainly did not equate sexism with rape.
The folks on this forum are super prone to erect strawmen and ascribe arguments they've heard elsewhere to participants here who are not making those arguments, to boot. This entire thread has been ridiculous and full of manufactured outrage and frankly, misunderstandings so thorough that they appear flat out disingenuous.
And, for the third time, I never said that caution is uncalled for or sexist. The lonely sidewalk scenario, etc.
I honestly could not sense sarcasm. Was the comment about sarcasm sarcastic? I'm confused and need sleep.
No, but after this long, I'm pretty sure sketch appreciates that it's less of a comment on what he said, but more just a "I understand, man. Now that we've had a good chunder, and rinsed our mouths of the last bit of burning, bitter bile, let us return to better things."
After all, if anyone understands the text equivalent of being so disappointed, just generally so het up that it makes you half-way throw-up, it's me. And hey, I don't know about you, but I always feel better after a good hearty chunder. Literal or otherwise - thus why I'm signaling to sketch in my own way that it's okay now, it's all good, to wipe his mouth, and go have a bacon sandwich and a cuppa, now that he's feeling better after getting it off his chest. Or stomach, as the case may be.
Not sarcasm about his sarcasm, either - genuinely a good example of the form.
Seriously though, we do have the advantage of being a self-selecting community of a nature that probably lowers the general ratio. Though it is something freaky to think about.
I think the 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 deal might be getting misreported here. The only information I could find that coincides with those numbers are the number of women who report having been raped. Here, yo.
Dunno where people got the "1 in 5 dudes is a rapist" information. Maybe they look at their friends and realize that they are a rapist, and have 4 friends who are not a rapist?
I'd assume most "rapists" are so in denial of what they did or have done at one point in their life that they don't even know it. Judging from conversations I've had with past girlfriends and their sex lives with other guys, some people are being sexually abused by people they cared about at one point or another. (whether they are being raped rather then abused however is up to interpretation.)
I find Star Trek really handled what it's like to be most guys, Most guys tend to be the equivalent of Spock, half Human/Half Vulcan. Thinking they are completely logical when in fact they are letting their emotional needs overcome them. Actually thinking about this Vulcans would be extremely scary being all logical, they would see all the signs of attraction in someone and think that logically the other person would be interested in them.... Ok I gotta get off this Star Trek metaphor.
I find Star Trek really handled what it's like to be most guys, Most guys tend to be the equivalent of Spock, half Human/Half Vulcan. Thinking they are completely logical when in fact they are letting their emotional needs overcome them. Actually thinking about this Vulcans would be extremely scary being all logical, they would see all the signs of attraction in someone and think that logically the other person would be interested in them.... Ok I gotta get off this Star Trek metaphor.
Yeah, nope. I'm not Spock. If anything, I'm that tar monster that killed Tasha. Misunderstood and full of rage.
1 in 5 men being a rapist is, in my opinion, bullshit.
Closer to the truth would be that 1 in 5 men, or even more, have found themselves in a position with a woman where the woman feels uncomfortable or threatened, and the guy probably didn't understand it at the time. Or maybe they did. But including instances of sexual abuse into rape, and then calling all perpotraters of both "rapists", that kinda sounds iffy to me.
Before you accuse me of anything, or think you know my opinion about anything, I'm addressing the 1 in 5 men are rapists statistic, and nothing more. Nothing more. Please, I'm not interested in joining in the bullshit arguments on both sides.
I think you guys are somewhat limited in your social interactions, being young and self selecting for geeks, and it colors your perceptions about what the norm is. That, combined with the facebook-shaming of idiots and jocks that tends to happen on the "geek-centric internet" for lack of a better term, has given you a shit picture of other social groups as well.
I've been looking up rape statistics on and off since yesterday afternoon. The absolute WORST cities in Connecticut are pretty solid at a .08% rapist rate among men per year, assuming that each rape incident is a new offender. Given a reasonable maximum of an 80 year rolling period in which rapists can "accumulate" before dying of old age, it's mathematically impossible for 20% of men in those cities to become rapists unless you assume a failure to report above 95%.
Now, 95% of rapes may very well go unreported, but if you're going to claim that you may as well also claim that unicorns may very well be real for all we know, because both assertions rely on similar evidence.
I was mostly using 1 in 5 as an average that would let me do the statistics faster. It is on the high end, but not the highest of the studies I've seen. It's probably closer to 1 in 6 to 1 in 8, but honestly that's beside the point. After all, what ratio would be okay?
I am not a rapist, so I cannot change what rapists do, but I do have things I can do in my own life to make other people more comfortable. Avoid being alone in an enclosed space with a woman. Keep my hands visible. Avoid interacting with women I don't know if I have another option. Don't presume all women on the street want to talk to me. Don't make stupid catcalls or random compliments to women I don't know. Pay close attention to personal space. Respect boundaries and clear lines of consent. Don't get drunk enough that I can no longer trust my own judgement, learn to recognize if she's too drunk to use hers. Don't make rape jokes. Don't blame the victim for their ordeal. When walking behind a woman at night, slow down or switch sides of the street.
These things don't cost me anything; all it does it make the incredible assumption that women are not mind readers and cannot judge my intentions accurately, and respect that I pose a potential threat to them. It's not much different from avoiding wearing a ski mask anywhere but skiing. Yes, I have a right to wear a ski mask where ever the fuck I please, but by avoiding doing so of my own volition I make the people around me more comfortable because I no longer look like I might mug them. As I am not a dick, I generally want to make people feel more at ease, not less.
While most of this is sound advice that could also be summed up with "Don't behave like a dickhead", I think this becomes a problem when it encroaches on perfectly normal, non-threatening, non-suggestive behavior.
Maybe it's my european perspective, but I really do not see the problem with some of these, like for example the walking at night thing. Saying that people should avoid perfectly normal interactions due to gender or some other factors does little except validating paranoia and prejudice. Unless it is paired with some other behavior that is an indicator of something being wrong, there is literally nothing to fear. And presuming some nefarious goal rather than the more likely utility of that action is objectively wrong.
Your ski mask comparison falls flat on its face in that regard, because there is no utility in wearing a ski mask in everyday interactions, but it has very great utility in bad behavior, namely obscuring ones identity. As it happens, this is also the very few occasions that people actually wear ski masks. Walking down the street on the other hand does have non-threatening utility: Getting to the place you want to go.
Always assuming that someone poses "a potential threat" of sexual assault is detrimental to society as a whole, no different than assuming that everyone on the street is a potential mugger.
I for my part try to treat every person, regardless of age, gender, race, sexual orientation, or what have you, the same way, and that includes affording them the respect and benefit of not assuming that they are criminal or insane person. That is of course unless I have other reasons to assume they are. However, "walking down the street at night behind someone" is not one of them.
I also want to feel most at ease as possible. However, it is hard to do so when their own paranoia is what doesn't let them be at ease.
1 in 5 men being a rapist is, in my opinion, bullshit.
Closer to the truth would be that 1 in 5 men, or even more, have found themselves in a position with a woman where the woman feels uncomfortable or threatened, and the guy probably didn't understand it at the time. Or maybe they did. But including instances of sexual abuse into rape, and then calling all perpotraters of both "rapists", that kinda sounds iffy to me.
Before you accuse me of anything, or think you know my opinion about anything, I'm addressing the 1 in 5 men are rapists statistic, and nothing more. Nothing more. Please, I'm not interested in joining in the bullshit arguments on both sides.
Good luck, Luke. I've had about 5x as many "arguments" ascribed to me in this thread as I've actually made, and people who read those accusations don't bother to check them for veracity, so they may as well be fact as far as the forum is concerned. God speed.
Seriously, people, before you dogpile on me for something I've said, go back in the thread and make sure I've actually said it, because bullshit's been flying in here big time.
I was mostly using 1 in 5 as an average that would let me do the statistics faster. It is on the high end, but not the highest of the studies I've seen. It's probably closer to 1 in 6 to 1 in 8, but honestly that's beside the point. After all, what ratio would be okay?
From what I can tell it's probably closer to 1 in 200 than 1 in 5 or 1 in 8, sketch. I think you need to cite more than just one survey-based source for a claim like this. You've been flogging it for two days and honestly I don't think one person on this forum is convinced that you've verified it.
I always found the 1 in 3 cancer statistic that we have in the UK. By that logic one of my siblings or I are going to get cancer of some description.
If you live long enough, you will get cancer. I mean, technically you almost certainly have some cancerous cells in your body right now, but most of them won't get as far as a tumour or anything like that.
I vote Muppet for "most likely to be a female rapist".
Thats a pretty shitty thing to say and adds nothing to the discussion.
Perhaps, but this entire thread has been filled with nothing but anger, emotionally-driven rants, and frustration from all sides. At this point, we're all talking to brick walls, and I don't think continuing this "discussion" will change anyone's minds.
So, I apologize for the shitty thing I said, but this thread has already gone down the deep end.
1 in 5 men being a rapist is, in my opinion, bullshit.
I'd say you're right. In the US alone, that would mean there are 62,318,383.4 rapists right now. Despite that the US does have a surprisingly high rate of rape, I find the idea that there are sixty-two million rapists in the US population a bit tough to swallow. Especially considering that rape has been on a long decline in the US - the rate of occurrence is about 60% lower than it was in 1993, and that's a steady trend with little sign of changing.
After all, what ratio would be okay?
100%. Fuck it, Rape everybody.
Hey, if you want to ask a stupid question, expect a stupid answer. And doubly so if you're asking a pointless, emotionally charged question that all but outright dares someone to disagree with you, and is constructed so that if they do, they look like a bad guy who excuses rape.
You know better, sketch. That shit might be fine in the sort of places you used to hang out, but you stopped that shit because you openly pointed out that it's bad for you, remember? Don't slip back into shitty habits like that, especially when you've already proven that you're better than that. I know you're frustrated and angry, but if that's the case, step back and take a break, don't do that stupid shit. Seriously, man. Step away, have a cuppa, fly a kite, have a nice introspective wank, stare at your navel for a while and go ommm, sit under a tree and contemplate the immortality of the crab, whatever. Just don't do this shit or think about this shit for a while, you're fucking yourself up, man, and it's painful to watch you do it to yourself.
I agree that the thread is pretty much unsalvageable but frankly, it's not because of me. Go find the unreasonable and offensive things I've said. Make a list. I'll be happy to address them. An awful lot of bullshit has been ascribed to me, but isn't what I actually said, and frankly the misunderstandings aren't even very understandable as I've not been terribly ambiguous.
ETA: WUB, I really do apologize for offhandedly calling you a rapist yesterday in the other thread, because shit, that was sucky of me. In the moment I thought I was being flip and ironic and clearly not serious but after a sleep and in light of Venture's similar comment, I feel like a crumb about it.
Comments
http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-14/03-totally-babies/equaltime/
If this was linked in previous pages, oops. I really didn't bother to read a bulk of the posts on here.
And open_sketchbook/Lyddi, from a third party perspective, it really feels like you are saying every male should feel guilty because rape exists.
This doesn't seem to be nearly as big of a problem outside of geek-circles, especially among guys. If a guy gives me a lewd comment or vice versa, and I tell him I'm not interested, he'll drop it, continue to converse with me like a human being, probably apologize, then we'll part ways. You don't hold a cat in front of your face and go "No~ protect me Mr. Cat! Haha, aren't I cute?" (I'm not commenting on the PAX enforcer story, I'm only stealing a scenario from it, and switching out the characters with ones that better fit in my example)
As for being scared when walking past shady-looking fellows at night, while I'd believe it's commonly a more extreme fear among women, guys totally have that too. I once, as I was walking to a bus stop at night, walked past two, young, thug-y-looking dudes who were yelling and being pushy with each other. They both went quiet and walked as far out of the way as possible as I passed by them. Made me feel pretty badass =P
If I had walked past either of those dudes at night in a different occasion, I'd for sure also try to avoid them, or maybe cross the street. I didn't pay them much mind in this case because while it was dark and no one was around, it was a pretty public area.
Look, I did hate myself for this stuff at one point. I was suicidal, I wrote up plans for harming myself and others. I cut myself a bit. I hated society, my parents, my friends, everyone. And then I grew up a bit and realized that hating people didn't actually make anyone's lives any better. So I started working on that instead. I learned to love myself and to respect others, and it is because of that respect that I do not whitewash the truth in this situation.
Women's fears are not unfounded.
It is not on them as the victims of these crimes to feel less victimized. It is not on those who fear these things happening to feel less fear, especially when so many of us tell them to fear it yet blame them for not taking precautions. There is a gross feedback loop in society that tells women that it is their own fault if they are raped, but not to be afraid of the people who might rape them because it will make them feel bad. As men (as a group) don't seem to be letting up on the whole rape thing anytime soon, it means that we have to try to make things easier for the survivors and the people who fear victimization.
I am not a rapist, so I cannot change what rapists do, but I do have things I can do in my own life to make other people more comfortable. Avoid being alone in an enclosed space with a woman. Keep my hands visible. Avoid interacting with women I don't know if I have another option. Don't presume all women on the street want to talk to me. Don't make stupid catcalls or random compliments to women I don't know. Pay close attention to personal space. Respect boundaries and clear lines of consent. Don't get drunk enough that I can no longer trust my own judgement, learn to recognize if she's too drunk to use hers. Don't make rape jokes. Don't blame the victim for their ordeal. When walking behind a woman at night, slow down or switch sides of the street.
These things don't cost me anything; all it does it make the incredible assumption that women are not mind readers and cannot judge my intentions accurately, and respect that I pose a potential threat to them. It's not much different from avoiding wearing a ski mask anywhere but skiing. Yes, I have a right to wear a ski mask where ever the fuck I please, but by avoiding doing so of my own volition I make the people around me more comfortable because I no longer look like I might mug them. As I am not a dick, I generally want to make people feel more at ease, not less. I'm not saying most men are bad people. Too many, yes. But not most. Some. The problem is that a person who does not know you can't know which one you are, so it's reasonable for them to cautious considering how much harm can come to them if they are not. You were the only one here saying that "most" or "all" men are bad or deserve to feel guilty.
Not my fault, not your fault, just the fault of stupid memes perpetrated by a stupid and archaic society.
However, having this conversation with you assholes has made me realize I was wrong all along. Men are scum and I can't wait until women wise up to it and wipe us out. It'll be everything we deserve.
The folks on this forum are super prone to erect strawmen and ascribe arguments they've heard elsewhere to participants here who are not making those arguments, to boot. This entire thread has been ridiculous and full of manufactured outrage and frankly, misunderstandings so thorough that they appear flat out disingenuous.
And, for the third time, I never said that caution is uncalled for or sexist. The lonely sidewalk scenario, etc.
After all, if anyone understands the text equivalent of being so disappointed, just generally so het up that it makes you half-way throw-up, it's me. And hey, I don't know about you, but I always feel better after a good hearty chunder. Literal or otherwise - thus why I'm signaling to sketch in my own way that it's okay now, it's all good, to wipe his mouth, and go have a bacon sandwich and a cuppa, now that he's feeling better after getting it off his chest. Or stomach, as the case may be.
Not sarcasm about his sarcasm, either - genuinely a good example of the form.
Seriously though, we do have the advantage of being a self-selecting community of a nature that probably lowers the general ratio. Though it is something freaky to think about.
Dunno where people got the "1 in 5 dudes is a rapist" information. Maybe they look at their friends and realize that they are a rapist, and have 4 friends who are not a rapist?
I find Star Trek really handled what it's like to be most guys, Most guys tend to be the equivalent of Spock, half Human/Half Vulcan. Thinking they are completely logical when in fact they are letting their emotional needs overcome them. Actually thinking about this Vulcans would be extremely scary being all logical, they would see all the signs of attraction in someone and think that logically the other person would be interested in them.... Ok I gotta get off this Star Trek metaphor.
Closer to the truth would be that 1 in 5 men, or even more, have found themselves in a position with a woman where the woman feels uncomfortable or threatened, and the guy probably didn't understand it at the time. Or maybe they did. But including instances of sexual abuse into rape, and then calling all perpotraters of both "rapists", that kinda sounds iffy to me.
Before you accuse me of anything, or think you know my opinion about anything, I'm addressing the 1 in 5 men are rapists statistic, and nothing more. Nothing more. Please, I'm not interested in joining in the bullshit arguments on both sides.
I've been looking up rape statistics on and off since yesterday afternoon. The absolute WORST cities in Connecticut are pretty solid at a .08% rapist rate among men per year, assuming that each rape incident is a new offender. Given a reasonable maximum of an 80 year rolling period in which rapists can "accumulate" before dying of old age, it's mathematically impossible for 20% of men in those cities to become rapists unless you assume a failure to report above 95%.
Now, 95% of rapes may very well go unreported, but if you're going to claim that you may as well also claim that unicorns may very well be real for all we know, because both assertions rely on similar evidence.
Maybe it's my european perspective, but I really do not see the problem with some of these, like for example the walking at night thing. Saying that people should avoid perfectly normal interactions due to gender or some other factors does little except validating paranoia and prejudice. Unless it is paired with some other behavior that is an indicator of something being wrong, there is literally nothing to fear. And presuming some nefarious goal rather than the more likely utility of that action is objectively wrong.
Your ski mask comparison falls flat on its face in that regard, because there is no utility in wearing a ski mask in everyday interactions, but it has very great utility in bad behavior, namely obscuring ones identity. As it happens, this is also the very few occasions that people actually wear ski masks. Walking down the street on the other hand does have non-threatening utility: Getting to the place you want to go.
Always assuming that someone poses "a potential threat" of sexual assault is detrimental to society as a whole, no different than assuming that everyone on the street is a potential mugger.
I for my part try to treat every person, regardless of age, gender, race, sexual orientation, or what have you, the same way, and that includes affording them the respect and benefit of not assuming that they are criminal or insane person. That is of course unless I have other reasons to assume they are. However, "walking down the street at night behind someone" is not one of them.
I also want to feel most at ease as possible. However, it is hard to do so when their own paranoia is what doesn't let them be at ease.
Seriously, people, before you dogpile on me for something I've said, go back in the thread and make sure I've actually said it, because bullshit's been flying in here big time.
So, I apologize for the shitty thing I said, but this thread has already gone down the deep end.
Hey, if you want to ask a stupid question, expect a stupid answer. And doubly so if you're asking a pointless, emotionally charged question that all but outright dares someone to disagree with you, and is constructed so that if they do, they look like a bad guy who excuses rape.
You know better, sketch. That shit might be fine in the sort of places you used to hang out, but you stopped that shit because you openly pointed out that it's bad for you, remember? Don't slip back into shitty habits like that, especially when you've already proven that you're better than that. I know you're frustrated and angry, but if that's the case, step back and take a break, don't do that stupid shit. Seriously, man. Step away, have a cuppa, fly a kite, have a nice introspective wank, stare at your navel for a while and go ommm, sit under a tree and contemplate the immortality of the crab, whatever. Just don't do this shit or think about this shit for a while, you're fucking yourself up, man, and it's painful to watch you do it to yourself.
ETA: WUB, I really do apologize for offhandedly calling you a rapist yesterday in the other thread, because shit, that was sucky of me. In the moment I thought I was being flip and ironic and clearly not serious but after a sleep and in light of Venture's similar comment, I feel like a crumb about it.