Why do you think you're gonna start a flame war? My tone is angry-ish, but not directed at you. Directed at Reddit's admins, mostly. Because they're shit bags who tend to ignore any criticism in the name of free speech.
I don't disagree with you on any particular point, since you don't seem to disagree with me on any specific point either.
I totally prefer internet communities being way too heavily moderated to Reddit. I've moderated communities as well, but I don't think there's a fine line when it comes to crap like child porn and "grey" areas around there. There are grey areas in other things, like criticizing political cartoons or ideological discussions (for example, I abhor Free Republic but think it's fine for it to exist despite being a festering pit of unspeakable words). But not so in the specific example of child whack-off material. Which is a term I choose specifically, because child porn denotes nudity and /r/jailbait skirted that line fairly successfully for quite some time.
Of course, this all boils down to personal choice. I choose not to go to Reddit because of reasons. Instead, I choose to participate in different online communities.
Simply using the word "misandry" tends to start flamewars. I was being mostly tongue-in-cheek.
I absolutely agree that there are certain forum activities that need to just be burned and the ground salted, and sharing images of children intended to titillate is on that list.
Oh I totally agree that its a can of worms. I just find it interesting that it hasn't been brought up to support certain arguments. The whole issue I find very interesting, along with its representation, and how it is discussed.
I didn't dare mention that nearly 100% of rape of men by women goes unreported, because that's just a can of worms that can stay closed as far as I'm concerned.
Of course you did just mention it, in a passive aggressive manner. Understandable, since you were dog piled before.
I think the major difference is that women have been a legitimately marginalized group that has been systematically ignored for hundreds of years. It's only a fairly recent event (in broad historical terms) that they have received equal ground for things like voting and human rights.
So while there may be male on male rape or female on male rape, it's not so much a hot topic because men as a group haven't been systematically beaten down in other areas. Also, because those sorts of statistics generally only come into play in a reactionary sense when people are talking about male on female rape.
So it comes off as "You know who the REAL victims are? MEN." even if it's not intended that way.
Assault is bad regardless of societal context. I'd never try to argue for equivalency, but the tendency to treat the lesser and more rare evil as acceptable IS galling. The only purpose it has in a discussion of marginalization by gender is among a litany of other issues for the purpose of establishing that the possibility for empathy exists.
Fuck, I'm beta as Hell. I went to school well before zero-tolerance policies existed. I lost count of how many times I was beaten bloody or black and blue at school, and the response was usually "man up", "hit them back", or "you were asking for it by being a pussy." My bike was vandalized (brake lines cut with the intention that I would be injured), I was burned with cigarettes, I was spit on, two guys literally almost broke my neck by hooking my ankles with hockey sticks and crashing my head directly into a concrete staircase. One guy pulled a knife on me in a bathroom and threatened to slice open my abdomen just for shits. The response was generally to begrudgingly give the bullies detention, and me a lecture on not being such a victim.
The ONLY reason I even bring this up now is because I feel as though I've been pigeon holed as some sort of macho, strutting, swarthy woman hater in this thread by certain participants. Some sort of smirking Gaston, and man, the mental image does not compute.
Assault is bad regardless of societal context. I'd never try to argue for equivalency, but the tendency to treat the lesser and more rare evil as acceptable IS galling. The only purpose it has in a discussion of marginalization by gender is among a litany of other issues for the purpose of establishing that the possibility for empathy exists.
When I see a thread go from nonexistent to 6 pages in less than 24 hours, my first suspicion is that you are involved, and that you are having some kind of debate and that the other person is misrepresenting what you're saying. Don't worry though, because other forum members have fulfilled the same role in the past, Axel and Matt being two examples. They've stuck around long enough to express clearly their backgrounds, to understand the normal tone of discussion here, and they both grew up a bit. Once you're a few years past your teenage years, I'm sure you'll have less problems expressing yourself and understanding others too.
When I see a thread go from nonexistent to 6 pages in less than 24 hours, my first suspicion is that you are involved, and that you are having some kind of debate and that the other person is misrepresenting what you're saying. Don't worry though, because other forum members have fulfilled the same role in the past, Axel and Matt being two examples. They've stuck around long enough to express clearly their backgrounds, to understand the normal tone of discussion here, and they both grew up a bit. Once you're a few years past your teenage years, I'm sure you'll have less problems expressing yourself and understanding others too.
Hey Luke, fuck you too. :-)
Feel free to tell me where I've been ambiguous. The fact is, cliques dislike turbulence. Right now I'm turbulence. Such is life.
That you feel the need to randomly condescend me I think says more about you than me. I may not be the most diplomatic guy ever but I certainly didn't say anything horrible enough in this thread to deserve the pillorying I got. I offered again and again to discuss the accusations people leveled against me in depth. I clarified over and over. I asked people to quote the passages they felt were insulting so that I could better understand how I was being misunderstood. Frankly, I don't see how I could have been much more level headed under the circumstances.
I read it more as "don't worry everyone gets a hazing" Beyond that I'd leave it other wise we are going to need to call the brigade. Everyone's trying to make themselves look big so why don't we all cool off a bit before we start to burn bridges with out thinking.
Edit; At times we have come close to teenage kids screaming at each other. Throwing our age around doesn't achieve much. As we all know Old people can't relate and punk kids are dumb.
This isn't a clique, this is a community. Within the community there are cliques (such as the actual FRC and the breakfast club), though I'm not trying to imply anything negative with that description. Turbulence is fine too. You don't remember the old Steve and Joe days.
My point is that a thread grows to six pages long, and at the end the only thing that seems to have been discussed is misunderstandings between you and another person. As I said, if you stick around, and grow up a bit, this will happen a lot less and people get to know you better, and you get used to how other people communicate.
This is why I've got no problem joining a thread like this, and why I don't worry in the least about people piling onto me or a comment I make, and you do. You seem to think people will pile onto me, but it doesn't happen to everyone. Piling on only happens to a few people, and at the moment one of those people is you. Of course, Apreche is another, but it's his forum, so he understands that people are going to call him on his shit.
I read it more as "don't worry everyone gets a hazing" Beyond that I'd leave it other wise we are going to need to call the brigade. Everyone's trying to make themselves look big so why don't we all cool off a bit before we start to burn bridges with out thinking.
Edit; At times we have come close to teenage kids screaming at each other. Throwing our age around doesn't achieve much. As we all know Old people can't relate and punk kids are dumb.
The only time I've invoked my age was in an attempt to explain why everybody seemed to be talking past each other in this thread. I don't think I've "pulled rank".
Meh. This thing will not end.
It's a very shitty feeling sitting here knowing that some chunk of the forum has decided that I'm an ass based on some misrepresentative internalized model of what actually was said in this thread. Feels bad man. :P
This isn't a clique, this is a community. Within the community there are cliques (such as the actual FRC and the breakfast club), though I'm not trying to imply anything negative with that description. Turbulence is fine too. You don't remember the old Steve and Joe days.
My point is that a thread grows to six pages long, and at the end the only thing that seems to have been discussed is misunderstandings between you and another person. As I said, if you stick around, and grow up a bit, this will happen a lot less and people get to know you better, and you get used to how other people communicate.
This is why I've got no problem joining a thread like this, and why I don't worry in the least about people piling onto me or a comment I make, and you do. You seem to think people will pile onto me, but it doesn't happen to everyone. Piling on only happens to a few people, and at the moment one of those people is you. Of course, Apreche is another, but it's his forum, so he understands that people are going to call him on his shit.
Being new to the tribal rituals of a forum is not equivalent to being a teenager in need of growing up. If you're trying to make a point maybe you shouldn't couch it in superfluous insult.
What normally happens is not that these sort of debates necessarily improve, it's that participants who know each other well will avoid having them as they learn where everyone's buttons are and studiously avoid them. I'm not sure that's a superior situation.
I wrote a few sentences about the semantics of clique vs community but that's just a distracting tangent and best left alone.
I don't know why you thought I misrepresented you. You seemed to rankle at supposedly being blamed for other mens behavior and expressed disbelief at how scared a lot of women are, so I was just explaining that no one is guilting you, merely asking that you be concious of other people's feelings.
I don't know why you thought I misrepresented you. You seemed to rankle at supposedly being blamed for other mens behavior and expressed disbelief at how scared a lot of women are, so I was just explaining that no one is guilting you, merely asking that you be concious of other people's feelings.
I honestly at this point don't remember whether you did or whether I accused you of doing it.
I was surprised to learn that young women are walking around in fear of imminent rape and I still question whether this is really the assertion being made by people in this thread, but nobody has touched that.
I already said that I don't have any problem with women being cautious, crossing the street, carrying mace, choosing to take the next elevator, etc.
If you're asking me to quantify what I think other people think my arguments are, I really am not sure, except that I can't understand how the above inspires anger and debate and name calling.
* I think a lot of people with personal or near experiences of rape took some exception to me asserting that the dude accused in the OP should get a chance to speak up before his name appears all over twitter next to the words "Sexual Predator", but I don't really know.
* I think a lot of people mistook my assertion that I'm not going to act meek and guilty around women in order to reduce their anxiety about men for an assertion that their anxiety is unfounded or sexist. I think this one is a tangled mess. Some people weren't asking for meekness or assigned guilt, but others certainly were even if they phrased it differently. This created a lot of anger among the "we weren't asking for that" group and a lot of backpedaling and accusations among the "we were but we won't admit it" group. This is a product of one guy trying to argue 8 threads at once. There's a big difference between an expectation of being sensitive and aware of your presence and presentation towards women (or anyone else) and an expectation that you refrain from getting on elevators, avert your eyes, and eschew friendly greetings in order that some paranoid few not misconstrue those actions. BOTH things were being called for by various people in this thread.
It was an intentional condescension, indeed, but I don't consider the insult superfluous. I know you are a grown adult with multiple marriages and kids, and that you're an IT professional, and much more. Because I read (parts) of this thread, I now know more about your physical attributes and some of your conduct in empty public spaces. Great.
However, you spend a lot of time debating on a forum with young guys, usually teenagers or college kids. Steve and Joe going against each other was real popcorn stuff, as they were two cranky old lawyers. Seeing Scott and Scott go against each other is fun too, for everyone involved, as Scott talks utter shit and Scott likes to call people on that shit. Anyone can discuss with anyone about anything, of course, but the most enjoyable topics for everyone involved is when people talk on their own level. About most topics, such as a specific computer game, the age of the person involved doesn't play into it much.
About topics such as the one in this thread, and in many others, the generation gap between you and the others involved is very, very wide. You acknowledge this in your posts by bringing up your age. However, the very fact that you are posting over and over and over brings into question the very experience or maturity or lack of naivety you seem to think your age brings.
Wow. I'm going to make one last post, and once again muppet will ignore it and spew insulting comments towards me and women in general.
I'm ashamed of many of the comments here. Trying to argue statistics to prove your stupid point that women shouldn't be so afraid. Some of you are just obsessed with getting statistics right for the sake of correct facts, I get that. (By the way, I never gave out any statistics myself or tried to use them, go look at my posts if you don't believe me. I just complained about muppet downplaying how bad rape is for the sake of his argument.) But WTF, who cares if its 1 in 5, 1 in 100, what the fuck ever! Its bad! Rape is bad! Murder is bad! Harming other people is bad!!! Some of you are so hung up on defending your incredibly rude insensitive comments (MUPPET) that you are really missing the point here.
This started out with muppet saying there's no way that so many women are afraid all of the time. Many of us, including me, said YES women are afraid all of the time, its unfortunate but true. THEN muppet says women are unreasonable and sexist for being afraid around men, and that by being cautious women are all saying that men should feel bad for being born male. I and several others explain the actions of women in sketchy situations, hoping that it will make more sense. At some point it was mentioned that if you are male and you would like to be courteous by purposefully not freaking women out, there are things you can do. This was brought up because at least one guy brought it up himself that he personally felt bad. So that was us trying to say if you feel bad, here are some things you can do to make women at ease so you don't have to feel bad anymore.
Muppet, now completely butthurt for being called out as an insensitive victim blaming asshole, turns it around and whines that everyone is saying he should feel bad for being male. Even though I said several times that is not the case. I can't speak for everyone, maybe someone else meant it, but I didn't. Yes when Nuri posted that list of things men should/shouldn't do, I DID say that I didn't agree that saying "hello" was a good idea. Then in the next post I admitted maybe I was being over-paranoid about that one thing since I've had so many men say rude comments to me, and a guy saying "hello" might make me think they'll start up with the rude comments (which is not rape, but still sexual harassment). So if you want to be a dick and attack that one thing, go ahead. The other comments I made were about how I personally act in sketchy situations.
So in the end, either muppet is a bad person, a vicious troll, or just a guy that's had his feelings hurt and in a feeble attempt to defend himself is insulting women and rape victims. I'm going to be optimistic and say he's not a troll or a bad person. You do this all the time in the forum and that's why people get so mad at you. This time you went far enough to enrage even me to the point of calling you out.
Seriously, in the future, don't make light of things like rape. Don't blame victims, don't attack women for being afraid all the time because their fellow females (AND males) are getting attacked/raped/whatever. And know that if they don't take every measure to protect themselves, they will likely be blamed instead of helped. Its a very taboo subject because so many people have been affected by it. Like several have already mentioned, what you CAN do is admit rape and violence towards women in general is a problem, even if its not all men and only 1 in X do it, spread awareness, tell your fellow men to stop being dicks to rape victims, support the women in your life and respect their attempts to keep themselves safe, etc. etc.
To all of your past and future comments that I hate men and think they should be ashamed of themselves and should wear burkas or whatever silly shit you make up, fuck you.
Edit: It took me so long to write this comment that you guys worked some things out. Pretend my comment exists about 20 comments ago. :-P
Edit 2: Disclaimer, I've never posted so many angry comments on a single thread like this. Those that know me on the forum know this. Its just that this topic really pissed me off enough to break out of my normal forum groove. No I'm not projecting my experiences or some bs like that, I was just trying to defend women and was insulted in return. If any of you (other than muppet) think I'm an asshole for some reason, I'm sorry. Ok I'm done.
Luke, call me an idealist, I dislike leaving a discussion on bad terms and will endlessly try to reconcile the frayed ends. If that makes me immature in your eyes, I'm willing to suffer that criticism.
I see slow progress being made in the thread, and I fatigue much more slowly in a discussion like this than you obviously do. Maybe that's a failing. I tend to think of it as patience and forebearance.
I think that obsessively trying to end an uncomfortable discussion for the sake of aesthetics is the immature thing, but to each their own.
Lyddi, I didn't say there was no way women are that scared all the time. I expressed incredulity and asked if that was really the case. I'm still waiting for someone to clarify whether they mean they think they might be raped at any time in any moment, or if they mean the dark sidewalk scenario, or what.
You said that men shouldn't say hello to you because it frightens you. I addressed that. I didn't accuse you of hating men. Were you also the one that said men should avoid getting into an elevator with a lone woman? Because that sounds like the kind of backwards misogynistic shit people on forums like this usually mock Middle Eastern nations for.
Please demonstrate where I blamed the victims of rape for being raped. Seriously, use quotations. Let's see it, or else stop talking shit.
Please demonstrate where I said that rape does not occur or is not a problem. Seriously, quote me. Or else again, stop talking shit.
You're raging at me and using me as an effigy to burn for all of your anger about rape and violence against women and pig-headed, misogynistic men, but you can't take one single thing I've said in this thread and make a convincing argument that I actually represent any of those things, or you would have by now instead of just making long, emotional appeals/rants about what a dick I am.
And sorry, but accusing 1 in 5 men of rape is inflammatory, hateful, and vile. Of course I'm going to address that. Saying that I don't think 1 in 5 men is a rapist is not even in the same universe as saying that rape isn't bad, rape doesn't occur, or that action should not be taken against rapists. You are apoplectic throughout this thread and making not one lick of sense.
You can call it "calling me out" if you want, but I've yet to see a coherent accusation from you.
I think a large part of the problem here is the tendancy for folks to project extreme viewpoints on other people. Muppet seems to think that Lyddi is calling for all men to be passive to alleviate her concerns, and Lyddi seems to think Muppet is excusing and or minimizing the seriousness of rape.
Then everyone spends two hundred posts arguing against extreme opinions that no one has actually said.
Not to be insulting to either party, but things might have gone a bit smoother if y'all started with the idea that the other one is in intelligent person with well thought out idea's rather than assuming that your opponent is either stupid or evil.
I don't think Lyddi is either stupid or evil, but I do think she's got some serious baggage regarding this issue that may very well be totally justifiable. What's not justifiable is applying it to me.
Accusing me of blaming rape victims for being raped is something I want her to either demonstrate conclusively that I've done, or else apologize for. That shit is not cool.
This got started when I said "Wow, this guy sounds guilty as hell, but we have a biased narrator. I'm interested to hear what the guy has to say, and if he clams up, it looks real bad."
Immediately following this, massive explosions went off, sirens wailed, and mountains began to crumble.
Baggage regarding computer games or a convention or an anime is one thing. Baggage regarding rape or sexual abuse is another.
To be clear, if you want to pick a fight about being misrepresented by other people on the forum, the best course is probably to just apologize in this thread for any offense caused and take it up with a slightly less fraught topic elsewhere and else when.
Baggage regarding computer games or a convention or an anime is one thing. Baggage regarding rape or sexual abuse is another.
To be clear, if you want to pick a fight about being misrepresented by other people on the forum, the best course is probably to just apologize in this thread for any offense caused and take it up with a slightly less fraught topic elsewhere and else when.
I agree that this is a REALLY REALLY bad topic to try and salvage. I'm at a loss here. I have visions of showing up to the next Connecticon, being quietly regarded by the FRCF group as "that rape apologist" and man, that is bullshit.
The way I see it, the longer you keep going on and trying to get women to apologize to you over your bruised feelings, the more likely that is to happen. If you just apologize to those you have upset now, maybe they'll respect you more in the future, and listen more closely to what you have to say on such topics.
The way I see it, the longer you keep going on and trying to get women to apologize to you over your bruised feelings, the more likely that is to happen. If you just apologize to those you have upset now, maybe they'll respect you more in the future, and listen more closely to what you have to say on such topics.
I'm not looking for "women" to apologize to me for bruised feelings. I think specific individuals should apologize for accusing me of blaming rape victims for being raped, or for minimizing the fact of rape, both of which are horrendous and untrue accusations.
You can endlessly mis-characterize what I'm saying in order to condescend and belittle me, but that doesn't make what you're saying true, it just makes you a liar.
And further, I didn't make this thread about me. A dozen people making personal attacks did that.
OK. By now, in half of my life being on the internet, I am always prepared for any discussion thread to slide off topic and become a back and forth punch fest.
This being a geeknights forum, can anyone give me the word for when someone tries to turn themselves into the victim? It happens everywhere. In anime fandom, for instance, you have people who have their niche (arguably tasteless) interests try to turn themselves into this oppressed faction that is being attacked for what they enjoy.
I feel that's what is going on here. We don't need to crunch the numbers. Here's the FACT: rape happens. One rape is too much. Men are likely to be the perpetrators of rape. If women feel uncomfortable on a dark, lonely street because it's just her and a dude walking down it, I see no problem with it. It's MUCH better to be save than sorry when it comes to being a victim of a serious crime.
I know people do not want to be prejudged as a violent or horrible, but as a wise man once said,
If you are of a certain skin color, of a certain religious background, a certain religious background, a certain political ideology, you are being looked up and down and judged by others. There are certain cold hard, nasty numbers that define the people who look similar to you. I'm a black guy. World Star Hip Hop exists, and so does the police blotter.
So, rather than continue trying to make yourself into a victim off of someone else's victimhood, why don't you just stop. If someone says you smell like shit, and you don't then why continue to defend yourself over and over again, just with different words? How many times must you present evidence?
If a woman bolts down the block at the sight of me, that hurts, but If she has to do that to feel safe, I won't lose sleep over being a perceived criminal. There have been news reports of women who did not take caution into consideration and payed a horrific price for it.
Someone who upsets someone over a sensitive topic, particularly rape and physical abuse, and then thinks getting an apology because of a misunderstanding is the most important thing about the thread... that is the exact same person who other people think thinks rape is a subject to be trivialized. In turn this leads to someone thinking you are a rape apologist.
Apologizing now, after trivializing the suffering of others, making it less important than you getting an apology, is probably too late. Now you're just an asshole
I'm an asshole in this thread too, but at least I'm not a misunderstood asshole.
Comments
I absolutely agree that there are certain forum activities that need to just be burned and the ground salted, and sharing images of children intended to titillate is on that list.
I think the major difference is that women have been a legitimately marginalized group that has been systematically ignored for hundreds of years. It's only a fairly recent event (in broad historical terms) that they have received equal ground for things like voting and human rights.
So while there may be male on male rape or female on male rape, it's not so much a hot topic because men as a group haven't been systematically beaten down in other areas. Also, because those sorts of statistics generally only come into play in a reactionary sense when people are talking about male on female rape.
So it comes off as "You know who the REAL victims are? MEN." even if it's not intended that way.
Fuck, I'm beta as Hell. I went to school well before zero-tolerance policies existed. I lost count of how many times I was beaten bloody or black and blue at school, and the response was usually "man up", "hit them back", or "you were asking for it by being a pussy." My bike was vandalized (brake lines cut with the intention that I would be injured), I was burned with cigarettes, I was spit on, two guys literally almost broke my neck by hooking my ankles with hockey sticks and crashing my head directly into a concrete staircase. One guy pulled a knife on me in a bathroom and threatened to slice open my abdomen just for shits. The response was generally to begrudgingly give the bullies detention, and me a lecture on not being such a victim.
The ONLY reason I even bring this up now is because I feel as though I've been pigeon holed as some sort of macho, strutting, swarthy woman hater in this thread by certain participants. Some sort of smirking Gaston, and man, the mental image does not compute.
When I see a thread go from nonexistent to 6 pages in less than 24 hours, my first suspicion is that you are involved, and that you are having some kind of debate and that the other person is misrepresenting what you're saying. Don't worry though, because other forum members have fulfilled the same role in the past, Axel and Matt being two examples. They've stuck around long enough to express clearly their backgrounds, to understand the normal tone of discussion here, and they both grew up a bit. Once you're a few years past your teenage years, I'm sure you'll have less problems expressing yourself and understanding others too.
Feel free to tell me where I've been ambiguous. The fact is, cliques dislike turbulence. Right now I'm turbulence. Such is life.
That you feel the need to randomly condescend me I think says more about you than me. I may not be the most diplomatic guy ever but I certainly didn't say anything horrible enough in this thread to deserve the pillorying I got. I offered again and again to discuss the accusations people leveled against me in depth. I clarified over and over. I asked people to quote the passages they felt were insulting so that I could better understand how I was being misunderstood. Frankly, I don't see how I could have been much more level headed under the circumstances.
Edit; At times we have come close to teenage kids screaming at each other. Throwing our age around doesn't achieve much. As we all know Old people can't relate and punk kids are dumb.
My point is that a thread grows to six pages long, and at the end the only thing that seems to have been discussed is misunderstandings between you and another person. As I said, if you stick around, and grow up a bit, this will happen a lot less and people get to know you better, and you get used to how other people communicate.
This is why I've got no problem joining a thread like this, and why I don't worry in the least about people piling onto me or a comment I make, and you do. You seem to think people will pile onto me, but it doesn't happen to everyone. Piling on only happens to a few people, and at the moment one of those people is you. Of course, Apreche is another, but it's his forum, so he understands that people are going to call him on his shit.
Meh. This thing will not end.
It's a very shitty feeling sitting here knowing that some chunk of the forum has decided that I'm an ass based on some misrepresentative internalized model of what actually was said in this thread. Feels bad man. :P
What normally happens is not that these sort of debates necessarily improve, it's that participants who know each other well will avoid having them as they learn where everyone's buttons are and studiously avoid them. I'm not sure that's a superior situation.
I wrote a few sentences about the semantics of clique vs community but that's just a distracting tangent and best left alone.
I was surprised to learn that young women are walking around in fear of imminent rape and I still question whether this is really the assertion being made by people in this thread, but nobody has touched that.
I already said that I don't have any problem with women being cautious, crossing the street, carrying mace, choosing to take the next elevator, etc.
If you're asking me to quantify what I think other people think my arguments are, I really am not sure, except that I can't understand how the above inspires anger and debate and name calling.
* I think a lot of people with personal or near experiences of rape took some exception to me asserting that the dude accused in the OP should get a chance to speak up before his name appears all over twitter next to the words "Sexual Predator", but I don't really know.
* I think a lot of people mistook my assertion that I'm not going to act meek and guilty around women in order to reduce their anxiety about men for an assertion that their anxiety is unfounded or sexist. I think this one is a tangled mess. Some people weren't asking for meekness or assigned guilt, but others certainly were even if they phrased it differently. This created a lot of anger among the "we weren't asking for that" group and a lot of backpedaling and accusations among the "we were but we won't admit it" group. This is a product of one guy trying to argue 8 threads at once. There's a big difference between an expectation of being sensitive and aware of your presence and presentation towards women (or anyone else) and an expectation that you refrain from getting on elevators, avert your eyes, and eschew friendly greetings in order that some paranoid few not misconstrue those actions. BOTH things were being called for by various people in this thread.
However, you spend a lot of time debating on a forum with young guys, usually teenagers or college kids. Steve and Joe going against each other was real popcorn stuff, as they were two cranky old lawyers. Seeing Scott and Scott go against each other is fun too, for everyone involved, as Scott talks utter shit and Scott likes to call people on that shit. Anyone can discuss with anyone about anything, of course, but the most enjoyable topics for everyone involved is when people talk on their own level. About most topics, such as a specific computer game, the age of the person involved doesn't play into it much.
About topics such as the one in this thread, and in many others, the generation gap between you and the others involved is very, very wide. You acknowledge this in your posts by bringing up your age. However, the very fact that you are posting over and over and over brings into question the very experience or maturity or lack of naivety you seem to think your age brings.
Seriously, grow up.
I'm ashamed of many of the comments here. Trying to argue statistics to prove your stupid point that women shouldn't be so afraid. Some of you are just obsessed with getting statistics right for the sake of correct facts, I get that. (By the way, I never gave out any statistics myself or tried to use them, go look at my posts if you don't believe me. I just complained about muppet downplaying how bad rape is for the sake of his argument.) But WTF, who cares if its 1 in 5, 1 in 100, what the fuck ever! Its bad! Rape is bad! Murder is bad! Harming other people is bad!!! Some of you are so hung up on defending your incredibly rude insensitive comments (MUPPET) that you are really missing the point here.
This started out with muppet saying there's no way that so many women are afraid all of the time. Many of us, including me, said YES women are afraid all of the time, its unfortunate but true. THEN muppet says women are unreasonable and sexist for being afraid around men, and that by being cautious women are all saying that men should feel bad for being born male. I and several others explain the actions of women in sketchy situations, hoping that it will make more sense. At some point it was mentioned that if you are male and you would like to be courteous by purposefully not freaking women out, there are things you can do. This was brought up because at least one guy brought it up himself that he personally felt bad. So that was us trying to say if you feel bad, here are some things you can do to make women at ease so you don't have to feel bad anymore.
Muppet, now completely butthurt for being called out as an insensitive victim blaming asshole, turns it around and whines that everyone is saying he should feel bad for being male. Even though I said several times that is not the case. I can't speak for everyone, maybe someone else meant it, but I didn't. Yes when Nuri posted that list of things men should/shouldn't do, I DID say that I didn't agree that saying "hello" was a good idea. Then in the next post I admitted maybe I was being over-paranoid about that one thing since I've had so many men say rude comments to me, and a guy saying "hello" might make me think they'll start up with the rude comments (which is not rape, but still sexual harassment). So if you want to be a dick and attack that one thing, go ahead. The other comments I made were about how I personally act in sketchy situations.
So in the end, either muppet is a bad person, a vicious troll, or just a guy that's had his feelings hurt and in a feeble attempt to defend himself is insulting women and rape victims. I'm going to be optimistic and say he's not a troll or a bad person. You do this all the time in the forum and that's why people get so mad at you. This time you went far enough to enrage even me to the point of calling you out.
Seriously, in the future, don't make light of things like rape. Don't blame victims, don't attack women for being afraid all the time because their fellow females (AND males) are getting attacked/raped/whatever. And know that if they don't take every measure to protect themselves, they will likely be blamed instead of helped. Its a very taboo subject because so many people have been affected by it. Like several have already mentioned, what you CAN do is admit rape and violence towards women in general is a problem, even if its not all men and only 1 in X do it, spread awareness, tell your fellow men to stop being dicks to rape victims, support the women in your life and respect their attempts to keep themselves safe, etc. etc.
To all of your past and future comments that I hate men and think they should be ashamed of themselves and should wear burkas or whatever silly shit you make up, fuck you.
Edit: It took me so long to write this comment that you guys worked some things out. Pretend my comment exists about 20 comments ago. :-P
Edit 2: Disclaimer, I've never posted so many angry comments on a single thread like this. Those that know me on the forum know this. Its just that this topic really pissed me off enough to break out of my normal forum groove. No I'm not projecting my experiences or some bs like that, I was just trying to defend women and was insulted in return. If any of you (other than muppet) think I'm an asshole for some reason, I'm sorry. Ok I'm done.
I see slow progress being made in the thread, and I fatigue much more slowly in a discussion like this than you obviously do. Maybe that's a failing. I tend to think of it as patience and forebearance.
I think that obsessively trying to end an uncomfortable discussion for the sake of aesthetics is the immature thing, but to each their own.
You said that men shouldn't say hello to you because it frightens you. I addressed that. I didn't accuse you of hating men. Were you also the one that said men should avoid getting into an elevator with a lone woman? Because that sounds like the kind of backwards misogynistic shit people on forums like this usually mock Middle Eastern nations for.
Please demonstrate where I blamed the victims of rape for being raped. Seriously, use quotations. Let's see it, or else stop talking shit.
Please demonstrate where I said that rape does not occur or is not a problem. Seriously, quote me. Or else again, stop talking shit.
You're raging at me and using me as an effigy to burn for all of your anger about rape and violence against women and pig-headed, misogynistic men, but you can't take one single thing I've said in this thread and make a convincing argument that I actually represent any of those things, or you would have by now instead of just making long, emotional appeals/rants about what a dick I am.
And sorry, but accusing 1 in 5 men of rape is inflammatory, hateful, and vile. Of course I'm going to address that. Saying that I don't think 1 in 5 men is a rapist is not even in the same universe as saying that rape isn't bad, rape doesn't occur, or that action should not be taken against rapists. You are apoplectic throughout this thread and making not one lick of sense.
You can call it "calling me out" if you want, but I've yet to see a coherent accusation from you.
Then everyone spends two hundred posts arguing against extreme opinions that no one has actually said.
Not to be insulting to either party, but things might have gone a bit smoother if y'all started with the idea that the other one is in intelligent person with well thought out idea's rather than assuming that your opponent is either stupid or evil.
Accusing me of blaming rape victims for being raped is something I want her to either demonstrate conclusively that I've done, or else apologize for. That shit is not cool.
This got started when I said "Wow, this guy sounds guilty as hell, but we have a biased narrator. I'm interested to hear what the guy has to say, and if he clams up, it looks real bad."
Immediately following this, massive explosions went off, sirens wailed, and mountains began to crumble.
To be clear, if you want to pick a fight about being misrepresented by other people on the forum, the best course is probably to just apologize in this thread for any offense caused and take it up with a slightly less fraught topic elsewhere and else when.
You can endlessly mis-characterize what I'm saying in order to condescend and belittle me, but that doesn't make what you're saying true, it just makes you a liar.
And further, I didn't make this thread about me. A dozen people making personal attacks did that.
OK. By now, in half of my life being on the internet, I am always prepared for any discussion thread to slide off topic and become a back and forth punch fest.
This being a geeknights forum, can anyone give me the word for when someone tries to turn themselves into the victim? It happens everywhere. In anime fandom, for instance, you have people who have their niche (arguably tasteless) interests try to turn themselves into this oppressed faction that is being attacked for what they enjoy.
I feel that's what is going on here. We don't need to crunch the numbers. Here's the FACT: rape happens. One rape is too much. Men are likely to be the perpetrators of rape. If women feel uncomfortable on a dark, lonely street because it's just her and a dude walking down it, I see no problem with it. It's MUCH better to be save than sorry when it comes to being a victim of a serious crime.
I know people do not want to be prejudged as a violent or horrible, but as a wise man once said,
If you are of a certain skin color, of a certain religious background, a certain religious background, a certain political ideology, you are being looked up and down and judged by others. There are certain cold hard, nasty numbers that define the people who look similar to you. I'm a black guy. World Star Hip Hop exists, and so does the police blotter.
So, rather than continue trying to make yourself into a victim off of someone else's victimhood, why don't you just stop. If someone says you smell like shit, and you don't then why continue to defend yourself over and over again, just with different words? How many times must you present evidence?
If a woman bolts down the block at the sight of me, that hurts, but If she has to do that to feel safe, I won't lose sleep over being a perceived criminal. There have been news reports of women who did not take caution into consideration and payed a horrific price for it.
Someone who upsets someone over a sensitive topic, particularly rape and physical abuse, and then thinks getting an apology because of a misunderstanding is the most important thing about the thread... that is the exact same person who other people think thinks rape is a subject to be trivialized. In turn this leads to someone thinking you are a rape apologist.
Apologizing now, after trivializing the suffering of others, making it less important than you getting an apology, is probably too late. Now you're just an asshole
I'm an asshole in this thread too, but at least I'm not a misunderstood asshole.