I don't think it's fighting games period that are immature as a sport. If they played Super Street Fighter II you wouldn't be able to surprise anyone. That game is so old, the entire game space has been explored over and over. But the newer games they just keep adding characters and changing things. It's like Netrunner where they keep adding cards, and every card they add has an affect on the old cards that already exist.
If your sport revolves around secret techniques and surprise, by definition it is immature. At this point, the best thing for the sport to get past its problems is to just keep going for another ten years.
That better describes something like Dota 2 than SFIV (and even in Dota 2, ability to execute and think on your feet will beat secret synergies that no-one else knows about).
High level competition in fighting games is more like boxing; if you can get an insight into how your opponent trains and their strengths and weaknesses and you can adjust your own training without your opponent having the same ability, you have an advantage.
It does, however, only really matters at the tippy-top tier of players.
In MOBA's you're also not looking at just one opponet and you're opponet isn't just looking at you.
What happens when their mid goes missing for over a minute? Is she trying to gank top? Is she in you're jungle stealing your Blue? Is she about to take Dragon with the Jungler?
If your sport revolves around secret techniques and surprise, by definition it is immature. At this point, the best thing for the sport to get past its problems is to just keep going for another ten years.
I think I described it poorly.
As when I see it, it is similar to a Tennis tournament where you go in practising very hard to win a game by forcing your opponent to the baseline with high ball speeds. Then you approach someone who is better then you at this style of play so you switch up to playing slow ball spin at the net because your opponent cannot deal with this.
The description I gave in regards to PR Balrog was that he stubbornly wanted to play the character "Balrog" because he is a high damage and high health character who was being used well against Infiltration's "Akuma". Both players know how to play all the characters in the game and can choose whichever ones they want but they are skilled in different characters or styles of play. Infiltration changed to a higher health character "Hakaan" it is not like he was only recently released. He was introduced into the franchise in 2009.
I feel as if the change in character is similar to the tennis analogy.
I was chatting to a friend on skype, and esports came up via a discussion about accidents vs mistakes, and drone pilots vs drone operators. We can down to the idea that:
A person is a pilot if he/she is controlling an aircraft that they are physically in (or on or slung under). vs. A person is an operator if he/she is controlling an aircraft that they are physically distant from.
What we came to was that while esports are testing some aspect of physical skill, the person doing the controlling is not in the "body" that is carrying out the action. The aspect of "the mind inhabiting the controlled actor" is a huge factor in all sports, and it's what sets car racing apart from remote controlled car racing.
And that's why the robot world cup doesn't want an overview camera and an outside computer controlling the robot players, but the robots themselves being in control of their actions.
It's not a knock against esports, but I think does set the skills and thinking about the game in the right perspective.
I wonder if that is why I always do better on racing games when I can choose a 'looking through the windshield' view?
That could be because you learned to drive in a real car, so feel comfortable with that view. Kids who don't drive won't benefit from that view, so the overhead view seeing the car on the track and how it moves is probably more helpful.
Over the past few days of being a bit ill, I've watched through the Smash Brothers Documentary, and judging by the positions and actions of the players, they could be playing literally any game, not just Smash Brothers Melee. Or, if you swapped around the players' names, there's no way an outsider would know which player we saw physically compared to the action on their screens. This is totally the opposite of any non-esport. And it's more than just an outsider not understanding the subtlety of the finger movements, but a true disconnect from the action.
Just imagine if the Smash Brothers esport players only saw the action from the point of view of their characters! How unhelpful that would be.
Which is like the normal view of American Football (a wide shot of all the action on the line) compared to the replay views we now see from the Spidercam. This can show us, in a very steady shot, what the quarterback sees. As more players in different sports use GoPro cameras and other head-mounting person cameras, the dividing line between observer and player is diminishing.
But there is still a difference in control. Sure, the coaches might be calling the plays, but they aren't out on the field getting hit. We care about the coaches, which is why the cameras always switch to them for reaction shots, but we know the real control is up to the players. They are doing the execution, and they are the ones getting smashed into the ground.
I wonder if that is why I always do better on racing games when I can choose a 'looking through the windshield' view?
Probably because you have a frame of reference for driving looking through the windshield. I'm guessing it hits the same shortcuts for spatial awareness that many years of driving actual cars has given you.
Keep in mind though, that's 100% a wild-ass guess.
My own experience is that I prefer racing games in 3rd person and had no problems adjusting to driving and also Go Kart racing.
When I first went go-karting, I almost felt detached, I was basically driving around every corner trying to work out the optimal entry and exit as if I was playing a game and this was superbly enhanced by how much grip I felt the kart had when doing corners at high speeds or overtaking people.
Yet when I play racing games I always suck at being inside the car mode and excel using 3rd person.
I think I do better in game because I have more knowledge of what is around the car and what is following up on the track where as in a go-kart my extra knowledge is from the physical responses I'm receiving while driving.
The last point is probably why I despise driving automatics or cars with a very soft suspension.
Doesn't BF4 have a sort of football game view for a player who acts as commander?
As to traditional 2D fighters I have to wonder if a first person 3D fighter game would work. First person works great with guns and some games have made melee combat fairly satisfying but the current crop of fighting games are optimized for a two dimensional playing field.
Doesn't BF4 have a sort of football game view for a player who acts as commander?
As to traditional 2D fighters I have to wonder if a first person 3D fighter game would work. First person works great with guns and some games have made melee combat fairly satisfying but the current crop of fighting games are optimized for a two dimensional playing field.
Yeah, commander views in BF4 or NS are similar, but not quite analogous. The would be like if the commander set up the plan for an encounter between Marines and Khara, dropped all the ammo and health in advance, and then couldn't do anything during the time the two sides were battling it out.
So during that time, all the focus would be on the action, without any reaction shots of the commander. Not until the action is over.
And so what we have with esports is that, during the action, the camera always faces away from the competitors. I guess there is often split screens, but the biggest screen is always the view of the action in-game, not of the competitors. And even then, the views of the competitors is usually of their faces, to get reactions after the events, not their hands, to see their fingers on buttons.
Can anyone think of a normal non-esport sport in which, during the climax of the competition itself, the camera isn't pointing at the participants?
In these throwing and target sports, there isn't one of them on TV that doesn't show the competitor performing the initial action. If in golf (or billiards or javelin or darts) you only saw the final outcome, with the projectile landing or the target being hit, it would be directly comparable to esports. As it is, you see both, not just one or the other. With these sports, you don't see the competitor at the climax because after the "throwing" point there is no human input.
With curling, there is player input all the way up to the moment the rocks stop moving. This is the closest to American Football, I guess, as the coach is analogous to the player who "throws" (though I think the term is deliver in curling) the rock.
More moba players stream everyday and have a picture in picture view of themselves while they play. In fact I could probably recognize more Dota players than American football players.
More moba players stream everyday and have a picture in picture view of themselves while they play. In fact I could probably recognize more Dota players than American football players.
Yeah, this is my point. They have to do picture-in-picture, just to have any human in there at all. And even then the esport videos I've seen rarely show the physical input.
The closest I can think of a non-esport sport that does picture in picture as standard is darts (and archery and shooting):
Even then that is because the physical input and result is so close in time that there isn't really time to cut between start point and destination, unlike golf.
Then again, it's probably no coincidence that such sports do not reward bodily athleticism, much like esports. For example:
A truly modern esport game needs to have unique avatars for individual players and teams in the view that spectators see. The game itself, for the players, can have its generic avatars to prevent unfair asymmetry, but the spectators need a better way to easily identify one "start" from another player.
esports are still in their infancy. Games are not being designed with core features that will be required to truly reach a mainstream audience.
Ahh yes, the good ol' esports players are fat argument. Also, Mobas already have unique avatars. Additionally they often cut to cameras showing the teams during the game, or have them on a separate stream.
Ahh yes, the good ol' esports players are fat argument.
Who made that argument?
I just think it's interesting that the sports that use split screen or picture-in-picture due to the tiny time span between player action and result, and that the player action is finger-based, are the sports that don't particularly reward athleticism. It's a sliding scale, I guess.
On one end are most sports, where the action is performed at the level of entire bodies. Like running.
Then there are sports where the players stand mostly stationary and use limbs.
Then sports where the player can be completely still and only using fingers for fine control (like shooting.
The extreme end is where not even fingers need to be moved, and it is purely electronic (and input into the sport is indistinguishable from bots).
The further along this line you go, the less the sport rewards athleticism, to the point where only a brain or thinking part of the body needs to exist. That split screens are needed to show the sports at one end of the line is an interesting (to me) correlation.
Is it that split screen is needed in one sport but not in the other or is it that sports that require athleticism do not lend themselves to split screen due in part to the higher level of movement and activity of the participant?
Ahh yes, the good ol' esports players are fat argument. Also, Mobas already have unique avatars. Additionally they often cut to cameras showing the teams during the game, or have them on a separate stream.
No, I want substantially unique avatars to follow individual players across games independent of what class or character or whatever they choose. The avatar that follows the esports players through his entire career. The one that appears in coverage and discussion. The one that isn't tied to any particular game.
Ahh yes, the good ol' esports players are fat argument. Also, Mobas already have unique avatars. Additionally they often cut to cameras showing the teams during the game, or have them on a separate stream.
No, I want substantially unique avatars to follow individual players across games independent of what class or character or whatever they choose. The avatar that follows the esports players through his entire career. The one that appears in coverage and discussion. The one that isn't tied to any particular game.
Yup! I think it wouldn't have to be an entire avatar though. I think something more along the lines of a team stripe and a logo.
Teams keep continuity of identity via a main jersey, which can stay with the same colours and overall design for years. They'll have a badge or logo too. To stop two teams with the same colours being too hard to tell apart, they'll have an away stripe too.
I think if each gamer had a shirt of two colours, plus a logo, to go with their name, that would do the trick. They could wear that shirt at tournaments. Their in-game avatar can be game-specific, but the colour scheme of the avatar will match their shirt, and the player logo would appear in game or on screen too. Matches with too-similar player shirts or colours could flip a coin, and for that match only one could switch to their away shirt and avatar colour scheme.
This would be way easier for spectators, but also far easier to mod into games, rather than having to redesign characters for every player, and you also wouldn't need separate feeds for competitors and spectators.
Ahh yes, the good ol' esports players are fat argument. Also, Mobas already have unique avatars. Additionally they often cut to cameras showing the teams during the game, or have them on a separate stream.
No, I want substantially unique avatars to follow individual players across games independent of what class or character or whatever they choose. The avatar that follows the esports players through his entire career. The one that appears in coverage and discussion. The one that isn't tied to any particular game.
Yup! I think it wouldn't have to be an entire avatar though. I think something more along the lines of a team stripe and a logo.
Teams keep continuity of identity via a main jersey, which can stay with the same colours and overall design for years. They'll have a badge or logo too. To stop two teams with the same colours being too hard to tell apart, they'll have an away stripe too.
I think if each gamer had a shirt of two colours, plus a logo, to go with their name, that would do the trick. They could wear that shirt at tournaments. Their in-game avatar can be game-specific, but the colour scheme of the avatar will match their shirt, and the player logo would appear in game or on screen too. Matches with too-similar player shirts or colours could flip a coin, and for that match only one could switch to their away shirt and avatar colour scheme.
This would be way easier for spectators, but also far easier to mod into games, rather than having to redesign characters for every player, and you also wouldn't need separate feeds for competitors and spectators.
Most Esports teams seem to have their uniforms setup (extremely well in Korea). In addition there have been attempts at incorporating team logos or colours into the maps themselves like team logos and team banners or team colours at the base.
For me the issue becomes difficult when you start adding skins to the actual models for the teams. Do the teams hire pepole to make the skins?
Does picking certain skins and colours give unfair advantages?
For example if a character has an indicator which is clear to see on most normal skins that it can stun your team or is primed to do damage become harder to see if your team colours and skin make it hard to see.
Also practising with the normal game outside of tournaments for an extended period gives the experienced player the ability to work out what the opponent is doing within a glance but when they are put into a tournament situation the colour change or skin change distracts them a few seconds enough to miss the few frames of an animation which allows for counter play or not recognise what is going on as quickly as usual.
The answer to the above would most likely be having the teams and players play on a default graphical settings but the skins and banners and logos be added to the stream of gameplay that goes to the specating clients. Which would actually be pretty great now that I think about it but I don't know of any game or company that has attempted to do that.
Dota 2 allows teams to use custom banners that dress the stage instead of changing the characters.
There are also team and player themed cosmetics in Dota 2, but they are required to conform to the same style guides as all other community created sets, most important of which being that the character remains identifiable at a glance.
Besides, players already have unique in-game representation that follows them throughout their career from game to game: their screen names. That along with play styles, uniforms, personalities and history are more enough to make a pro gamer recognizable.
I specifically said that the unique avatars need be visible only to spectators, preventing any logo-driven asymmetry.
Screen names aren't enough. They don't travel at all outside of a tiny core of esport fandom. Sports celebrities have faces and team jerseys that follow and reinforce the name. Esports need that.
Esports need individual celebrity. That literally does not exist outside of the tiny fanatic fan core.
Comments
High level competition in fighting games is more like boxing; if you can get an insight into how your opponent trains and their strengths and weaknesses and you can adjust your own training without your opponent having the same ability, you have an advantage.
It does, however, only really matters at the tippy-top tier of players.
What happens when their mid goes missing for over a minute? Is she trying to gank top? Is she in you're jungle stealing your Blue? Is she about to take Dragon with the Jungler?
As when I see it, it is similar to a Tennis tournament where you go in practising very hard to win a game by forcing your opponent to the baseline with high ball speeds. Then you approach someone who is better then you at this style of play so you switch up to playing slow ball spin at the net because your opponent cannot deal with this.
The description I gave in regards to PR Balrog was that he stubbornly wanted to play the character "Balrog" because he is a high damage and high health character who was being used well against Infiltration's "Akuma". Both players know how to play all the characters in the game and can choose whichever ones they want but they are skilled in different characters or styles of play. Infiltration changed to a higher health character "Hakaan" it is not like he was only recently released. He was introduced into the franchise in 2009.
I feel as if the change in character is similar to the tennis analogy.
A person is a pilot if he/she is controlling an aircraft that they are physically in (or on or slung under).
vs.
A person is an operator if he/she is controlling an aircraft that they are physically distant from.
What we came to was that while esports are testing some aspect of physical skill, the person doing the controlling is not in the "body" that is carrying out the action. The aspect of "the mind inhabiting the controlled actor" is a huge factor in all sports, and it's what sets car racing apart from remote controlled car racing.
And that's why the robot world cup doesn't want an overview camera and an outside computer controlling the robot players, but the robots themselves being in control of their actions.
It's not a knock against esports, but I think does set the skills and thinking about the game in the right perspective.
Over the past few days of being a bit ill, I've watched through the Smash Brothers Documentary, and judging by the positions and actions of the players, they could be playing literally any game, not just Smash Brothers Melee. Or, if you swapped around the players' names, there's no way an outsider would know which player we saw physically compared to the action on their screens. This is totally the opposite of any non-esport. And it's more than just an outsider not understanding the subtlety of the finger movements, but a true disconnect from the action.
Just imagine if the Smash Brothers esport players only saw the action from the point of view of their characters! How unhelpful that would be.
Which is like the normal view of American Football (a wide shot of all the action on the line) compared to the replay views we now see from the Spidercam. This can show us, in a very steady shot, what the quarterback sees. As more players in different sports use GoPro cameras and other head-mounting person cameras, the dividing line between observer and player is diminishing.
But there is still a difference in control. Sure, the coaches might be calling the plays, but they aren't out on the field getting hit. We care about the coaches, which is why the cameras always switch to them for reaction shots, but we know the real control is up to the players. They are doing the execution, and they are the ones getting smashed into the ground.
Keep in mind though, that's 100% a wild-ass guess.
When I first went go-karting, I almost felt detached, I was basically driving around every corner trying to work out the optimal entry and exit as if I was playing a game and this was superbly enhanced by how much grip I felt the kart had when doing corners at high speeds or overtaking people.
Yet when I play racing games I always suck at being inside the car mode and excel using 3rd person.
I think I do better in game because I have more knowledge of what is around the car and what is following up on the track where as in a go-kart my extra knowledge is from the physical responses I'm receiving while driving.
The last point is probably why I despise driving automatics or cars with a very soft suspension.
As to traditional 2D fighters I have to wonder if a first person 3D fighter game would work. First person works great with guns and some games have made melee combat fairly satisfying but the current crop of fighting games are optimized for a two dimensional playing field.
So during that time, all the focus would be on the action, without any reaction shots of the commander. Not until the action is over.
And so what we have with esports is that, during the action, the camera always faces away from the competitors. I guess there is often split screens, but the biggest screen is always the view of the action in-game, not of the competitors. And even then, the views of the competitors is usually of their faces, to get reactions after the events, not their hands, to see their fingers on buttons.
Can anyone think of a normal non-esport sport in which, during the climax of the competition itself, the camera isn't pointing at the participants?
With curling, there is player input all the way up to the moment the rocks stop moving. This is the closest to American Football, I guess, as the coach is analogous to the player who "throws" (though I think the term is deliver in curling) the rock.
I guess I phrased the question poorly.
The closest I can think of a non-esport sport that does picture in picture as standard is darts (and archery and shooting):
Even then that is because the physical input and result is so close in time that there isn't really time to cut between start point and destination, unlike golf.
Then again, it's probably no coincidence that such sports do not reward bodily athleticism, much like esports. For example:
esports are still in their infancy. Games are not being designed with core features that will be required to truly reach a mainstream audience.
I just think it's interesting that the sports that use split screen or picture-in-picture due to the tiny time span between player action and result, and that the player action is finger-based, are the sports that don't particularly reward athleticism. It's a sliding scale, I guess.
On one end are most sports, where the action is performed at the level of entire bodies. Like running.
Then there are sports where the players stand mostly stationary and use limbs.
Then sports where the player can be completely still and only using fingers for fine control (like shooting.
The extreme end is where not even fingers need to be moved, and it is purely electronic (and input into the sport is indistinguishable from bots).
The further along this line you go, the less the sport rewards athleticism, to the point where only a brain or thinking part of the body needs to exist. That split screens are needed to show the sports at one end of the line is an interesting (to me) correlation.
Teams keep continuity of identity via a main jersey, which can stay with the same colours and overall design for years. They'll have a badge or logo too. To stop two teams with the same colours being too hard to tell apart, they'll have an away stripe too.
I think if each gamer had a shirt of two colours, plus a logo, to go with their name, that would do the trick. They could wear that shirt at tournaments. Their in-game avatar can be game-specific, but the colour scheme of the avatar will match their shirt, and the player logo would appear in game or on screen too. Matches with too-similar player shirts or colours could flip a coin, and for that match only one could switch to their away shirt and avatar colour scheme.
This would be way easier for spectators, but also far easier to mod into games, rather than having to redesign characters for every player, and you also wouldn't need separate feeds for competitors and spectators.
For me the issue becomes difficult when you start adding skins to the actual models for the teams. Do the teams hire pepole to make the skins?
Does picking certain skins and colours give unfair advantages?
For example if a character has an indicator which is clear to see on most normal skins that it can stun your team or is primed to do damage become harder to see if your team colours and skin make it hard to see.
Also practising with the normal game outside of tournaments for an extended period gives the experienced player the ability to work out what the opponent is doing within a glance but when they are put into a tournament situation the colour change or skin change distracts them a few seconds enough to miss the few frames of an animation which allows for counter play or not recognise what is going on as quickly as usual.
The answer to the above would most likely be having the teams and players play on a default graphical settings but the skins and banners and logos be added to the stream of gameplay that goes to the specating clients. Which would actually be pretty great now that I think about it but I don't know of any game or company that has attempted to do that.
There are also team and player themed cosmetics in Dota 2, but they are required to conform to the same style guides as all other community created sets, most important of which being that the character remains identifiable at a glance.
Besides, players already have unique in-game representation that follows them throughout their career from game to game: their screen names. That along with play styles, uniforms, personalities and history are more enough to make a pro gamer recognizable.
Screen names aren't enough. They don't travel at all outside of a tiny core of esport fandom. Sports celebrities have faces and team jerseys that follow and reinforce the name. Esports need that.
Esports need individual celebrity. That literally does not exist outside of the tiny fanatic fan core.