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Avatar: The Last Airbender

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  • Except that it is a story about a child. I find age inaccuracies worse that racial inaccuracies, personally.
    Normally I would agree with you, but it's fucking Jesse McCartney. I would go out of my way to avoid him in almost any circumstance.
  • Thank you Emily :)

    I even went as far to set up my own film company on a Facebook page. We'll be doing things soon though
  • An Indian actor. Interesting choice!

    I still feel like when I imagine the characters as live action in my head, Ang looks like a young Tibetan monk, Toph looks Chinese, Zuko looks Thai, and Sokka and Katara look Native American/Inuit. Really, I'd be happy if they just cast a few dark-skinned vaguely Asian people who were good actors. Minorities in Hollywood can't get a break, I tell you.
  • An Indian actor. Interesting choice!

    I still feel like when I imagine the characters as live action in my head, Ang looks like a young Tibetan monk, Toph looks Chinese, Zuko looks Thai, and Sokka and Katara look Native American/Inuit. Really, I'd be happy if they just cast a few dark-skinned vaguely Asian people who were good actors. Minorities in Hollywood can't get a break, I tell you.
    Not only is it an indian actor, but it is the same one who starred in Slumdog Millionaire, the film that is up for best film of the year.
  • The largest concern I have for the Avatar movie is not actually the racism issue, I know a white man not worried about racism? Unheard of! But rather that aside from Dev Patel none of the actors playing the four leads have shown any inclining of acting talent now Noah (the kid playing Aang) is an unknown at this time but Nicola Pletz whose greatest acting credit is a bad comedy and Jackson Rathbone is clearly in Avatar only because of this link to Twilight (which by the way, terrible film, terrible books) and as an attempt to snag a demographic which we on the GeekNights forum are not a part of.

    Speaking of target demographics the internet seems to be forgetting that Avatar is a franchise targeted towards children the fact that it was able to catch a wider audience due to it's quality was unforeseen and that older audience is expendable because since it is a children's movie every eight year old who wants to see it will have to be accompanied by a parent and thus the movie already has two ticket sales for every one child.

    Accompanying this is the fact it's going to be a children's movie, the script with most likely be nothing but shonky fan-service and incredibly cheesy acting for 90 to 120 minutes.

    Now, back to the racism. Dev Patel is British-Indian, does this mean he is part of the great racist conspiracy to stop minority actors because after all he was born and raised in a western society. Something else to mull over, Noah Ringer seems to be chosen because he knows karate, now who wants to make the potentially stereotyped claim "well lots of asians know karate" in reply?

    Maybe I'm not seeing all this racism because I'm white and thus one of the racists or rather because I'm seeing a very calculated attempt to sell as many tickets to people to whom racism is not an issue (children), Twilight fangirls and these peoples Mums.
  • Rym said the whole thing boils down to the "will it play in Peoria" effect.
    Every thing they have done thus far, like the calculated casting of actors such as the guy in Twilight, it's just to raise box office numbers. Nothing more.
    Asian people won't sell as many tickets "in Peoria."
    Is that racism?
    Yes. A racism that goes beyond Avatar.
    A racism that not only the filmmakers are guilty of. Hollywood plays it safe all the time. I hate it.
    It's why we have a bajillion remakes and sequels.
    It's why we have cheesy, derivative summer blockbusters targeted at teens.
    And it's why we have a white Aang.

    They look and say, Joe Shmoe is not going to buy a ticket otherwise...

    To be perfectly frank, racism aside, my gripe is merely the fact that in my head, and apparently in most of the other fans heads, the characters looked radically different. I hate any time the producers ignore good source material to produce an inferior, unfaithful adaptation.
  • I'm with you on the actors didn't match what I pictured the characters as, however most children would have either thought of themselves as Aang or lived vicariously through him and didn't think of his appearance beyond what the show gave them.

    Asian people won't sell as many tickets "in Peoria."
    Is that racism?
    Yes. A racism that goes beyond Avatar.
    A racism that not only the filmmakers are guilty of. Hollywood plays it safe all the time. I hate it.
    It's why we have a bajillion remakes and sequels.
    It's why we have cheesy, derivative summer blockbusters targeted at teens.
    And it's why we have a white Aang.
    I really take issue with this because you know what else Joe Shmoe won't see and what doesn't get shown in major cinema's or have the ultra hype of a hollywood movie, European and Australian films (how many Americans can even name an Australian film that isn't a Mad Max film?) and nobody's out there wailing and screaming that is racist or a great conspiracy (well okay, there are a few but nobody listens to them)

    Is it similarly racist that there aren't large groups of white or black people in Asian movies, or is it that Joe Shmoe in Japan wants to see a Japanese protagonist because it makes him feel safe and secure the way a hollywood film having a white protagonist makes Joe Shmoe in America does?

    My main problem with calling this piece marketing racist is that it's a slippery slope, because while its acceptable to make a fuss when "I think that character is asian and now he's white, RACISM RACISM" but what about in say, United 93 when the one none American (a German) was a coward while all the big tough American people ate liberty and drink freedom, is that racist? And when we get to the bottom of that slope suddenly everyone's racist and evil, if you don't believe me read this (its from an article linked to last page)

    "This is the manifestation of white privilege, white supremacy ideology and culture that many white people blithely continue to deny exists. White people can so blind to this privilege, it's so much the norm that they really do believe it really is only another movie, another book, another policy completely unrelated to each other. That it just so happens that the privileging of whiteness and white culture happens and ensures white cultural dominance and there are no repercussions."

    So this is someone who is not white, passing a universal judgement over numerous ethnicity's and countries based solely on the colour of their skin, is this racist?

    Another question is, would this racist issue be in the frenzy it is now if everyone cast to be in Avatar was black rather than asian? Would people still be going "Argh, damn hollywood why can't they find asian teens to play the part"
  • Even if they chose black people I would still be disappointed because the story lies in Asian influences. I would still think someone was getting shafted.
  • I would still think someone was getting shafted.
    image
  • I would still think someone was getting shafted.
    image
    *tips hat* Well played city boy.
  • edited February 2009
    I really take issue with this because you know what else Joe Shmoe won't see and what doesn't get shown in major cinema's or have the ultra hype of a hollywood movie, European and Australian films (how many Americans can even name an Australian film that isn't a Mad Max film?) and nobody's out there wailing and screaming that is racist or a great conspiracy (well okay, there are a few but nobody listens to them)
    Like I said, I think that this is a shame too. It may not be "racism," but it's definitely culturalism.
    Is it similarly racist that there aren't large groups of white or black people in Asian movies, or is it that Joe Shmoe in Japan wants to see a Japanese protagonist because it makes him feel safe and secure the way a hollywood film having a white protagonist makes Joe Shmoe in America does?
    Hey, people (Japanese people and Americans) complained about the fact that the characters in Ghibli's "Tales of Earth Sea" weren't dark skinned...
    "This is the manifestation of white privilege, white supremacy ideology and culture that many white people blithely continue to deny exists. White people can so blind to this privilege, it's so much the norm that they really do believe it really is only another movie, another book, another policy completely unrelated to each other. That it just so happens that the privileging of whiteness and white culture happens and ensures white cultural dominance and there are no repercussions."
    You don't believe that white people, in our society, are unfairly priviledged? Wow. You know, this is kinda what they were referring to in this quote. It's like how a lot of men can't see the effects of the patriarchy because they ARE the patriarchy. Just keep telling yourself that everything's equal and that your race doesn't give you a head start, white boy. In a perfect world it wouldn't, but in America today it does. White privilege unfortunately exists, and to complain that the person (presumably Asian) writing the essay was racist for pointing that out is kinda silly.

    To sum up:
    White American Middle-class Men are the dominant class in American society and Hollywood reflects that. Some people think this is not fair. Discuss.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • Is it similarly racist that there aren't large groups of white or black people in Asian movies, or is it that Joe Shmoe in Japan wants to see a Japanese protagonist because it makes him feel safe and secure the way a hollywood film having a white protagonist makes Joe Shmoe in America does?
    Hey, people (Japanese people and Americans) complained about the fact that the characters in Ghibli's "Tales of Earth Sea" weren't dark skinned...

    That isn't really a normal asian production for a normal audience, I was talking about Joe Shmoe going into a cinema and watching film, and provided it's not foreign the cast and setting will be very asian and very familiar.
    Posted By: Irascible"This is the manifestation of white privilege, white supremacy ideology and culture that many white people blithely continue to deny exists. White people can so blind to this privilege, it's so much the norm that they really do believe it really is only another movie, another book, another policy completely unrelated to each other. That it just so happens that the privileging of whiteness and white culture happens and ensures white cultural dominance and there are no repercussions."
    You don't believe that white people, in our society, are unfairly priviledged? Wow. You know, this is kinda what they were referring to in this quote. It's like how a lot of men can't see the effects of the patriarchy because they ARE the patriarchy. Just keep telling yourself that everything's equal and that your race doesn't give you a head start, white boy. In a perfect world it wouldn't, but in America today it does. White privilege unfortunately exists, and to complain that the person (presumably Asian) writing the essay was racist for pointing that out is kinda silly.

    To sum up:
    White American Middle-class Men are the dominant class in American society and Hollywood reflects that. Some people think this is not fair. Discuss.

    Well the only half jocular answer to this is that America is significantly more racist than Australia and thus my comments are being made from one society to another very different one.

    However I don't support support this person's world view that white people seem to get privileges laid at their feet, because if we did I probably wouldn't be here debating this with you, I'd be off leading the life of the privileged and so would a lot of other people.

    I'm not denying that there are elements in Western societies that are unfairly privileged however you know what all these privileged people have in common? Money, the privileged are the wealthy (side note, four of the ten richest people in the world are Indian, that is the most people from one country or ethnicity) and in the few times they are not the extravagantly wealthy they are members of political dynasties. You want a real system of privilege by birth? Look at India and the way the caste system still affects politics and life in India, or a government that attempts to kept people of different ethnicities in check? China.

    Also concerning my use of that person's quote, I asked if passing a universal judgement on all people based solely on the colour of their skin wasn't a racist action.

    If you really want to believe that the casting of Avatar was motivated by race and there are big powerful white people in the world who are going to keep you down all your life then fine, I don't care I was just trying to pose a counter argument to an overwhelming argument which was producing a mob mentality.

    Like I said at the beginning, maybe America is a much more racist country than Australia
  • Well the only half jocular answer to this is that America is significantly more racist than Australia and thus my comments are being made from one society to another very different one.
    Prove it.
  • Well the only half jocular answer to this is that America is significantly more racist than Australia and thus my comments are being made from one society to another very different one.
    Prove it.
    The reason I said it was a half jocular answer and at the bottom of the post "maybe" is because I don't know

    Since this has turned into a general discussion on racism, I think I'll just bow out before it somehow twists back onto being 'omg that guy's defending racism' (it's the internet, stranger things have happened) because I'm not a racist, I don't support racism or racists. I am however more cautious about throwing the word around because I feel it can distort an issue very easily
  • edited February 2009
    Well the only half jocular answer to this is that America is significantly more racist than Australia and thus my comments are being made from one society to another very different one.
    Prove it.
    The reason I said it was a half jocular answer and at the bottom of the post "maybe" is because I don't know

    Since this has turned into a general discussion on racism, I think I'll just bow out before it somehow twists back onto being 'omg that guy's defending racism' (it's the internet, stranger things have happened) because I'm not a racist, I don't support racism or racists. I am however more cautious about throwing the word around because I feel it can distort an issue very easily
    I am not saying you or anyone else support racism, and neither were you - I'm saying your statement that America is more Racist than Australia is doubtful and I'm asking you to prove your assertion.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Well the only half jocular answer to this is that America is significantly more racist than Australia and thus my comments are being made from one society to another very different one.
    Prove it.
    The reason I said it was a half jocular answer and at the bottom of the post "maybe" is because I don't know

    Since this has turned into a general discussion on racism, I think I'll just bow out before it somehow twists back onto being 'omg that guy's defending racism' (it's the internet, stranger things have happened) because I'm not a racist, I don't support racism or racists. I am however more cautious about throwing the word around because I feel it can distort an issue very easily
    I am not saying you or anyone else support racism, and neither were you - I'm saying your statement that America is more Racist than Australia is incorrect.
    I didn't say it was, I said it could be and in fact it probably isn't, I just mentioned it because Emily and I did seem to be doing a bit of talking past each other and it could have been why

    The second paragraph was a bit of damage control, I'm still not used to the GeekNights community being so composed
  • Fair enough. I'm not as familiar with American history as I should be to kick off a debate like that anyway - It's not exactly something I learned about in school.
  • Well the only half jocular answer to this is that America is significantly more racist than Australia and thus my comments are being made from one society to another very different one.
    Prove it.
    The reason I said it was a half jocular answer and at the bottom of the post "maybe" is because I don't know

    Since this has turned into a general discussion on racism, I think I'll just bow out before it somehow twists back onto being 'omg that guy's defending racism' (it's the internet, stranger things have happened) because I'm not a racist, I don't support racism or racists. I am however more cautious about throwing the word around because I feel it can distort an issue very easily
    I am not saying you or anyone else support racism, and neither were you - I'm saying your statement that America is more Racist than Australia is incorrect.
    The second paragraph was a bit of damage control, I'm still not used to the GeekNights community being so composed
    Welcome to the Front Row Crew Forums, I can say that now realized this.
  • Excluding the racism that is rampant, let's talk about what we want to expect from this film (for those who want to see it anyways)? I personally hope they won't dumb this film down to the point that there is no purpose for a fan of Avatar to see it. My worries come from the fact that Avatar is under the banner of Nickelodeon Movies banner, and I have been unfortunate to see a couple of films under that name and they almost always were really stupid. But the fact that M. Night is directing this gives me a little solace as I respect his work both as a filmmaker and movie-goer (except Lady in the Water).
  • edited February 2009
    I am not saying you or anyone else support racism, and neither were you - I'm saying your statement that America is more Racist than Australia is doubtful and I'm asking you to prove your assertion.
    I agree with Churba. My Filipina roommate lived in Australia for a long time, and judging from what she and other people say, Australia seems no less racist than America. Historically, they both have a rotten track record. Anyway...
    Since this has turned into a general discussion on racism, I think I'll just bow out before it somehow twists back onto being 'omg that guy's defending racism' (it's the internet, stranger things have happened) because I'm not a racist, I don't support racism or racists. I am however more cautious about throwing the word around because I feel it can distort an issue very easily
    Wuss. Come on. I was just getting started. Throw me a flamewar bone, man...
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • ......
    edited February 2009
    Throw me a flamewar bone, man...
    *throws Gomily a bunny bone.*

    EDIT: Wait, something is missing from that... Oh, "KUKUKU" >:3
    Post edited by ... on
  • I agree with Churba. My Filipina roommate lived in Australia for a long time, and judging from what she and other people say, Australia seems no less racist than America. Historically, they both have a rotten track record. Anyway...
    Also, we have a completely different attitude about it - For example, Mrs Macross commented that a video in the things of your day thread was "painful and kinda racist" where as an Australian, I know there was no harm intended or done, and thus, had a bit of a laugh and moved on. There is a point where this ceases, of course, but you can certainly get away with a hell of a lot more.

    However, this isn't to say we don't have people who see racism hiding in every nook and cranny, but we just have far fewer.
  • edited February 2009
    That isn't seeing racism in any nook and cranny. It is just as offensive as the Mickey Rooney's yellowface performance in Breakfast at Tiffany's. Mickey Rooney and the director probably had good intentions, but that doesn't mean that the product wasn't offensive.
    As someone that has lived their life in the Theatre world, the blackface, yellowface, brownface, and whiteface traditions are ultra-taboo. If you cast a black person in a traditionally white role or vice-versa, it is better just to let them look the way they look and move on with the story. Unless their is a specific reference to the race within, it is usually fine. That guy could have done a fun impression of Louis Armstrong without the Aunt Jamima Makeup.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • edited February 2009
    That isn't seeing racism in any nook and cranny. It is just as offensive as the Mickey Rooney's yellowface performance in Breakfast at Tiffany's. Mickey Rooney and the director probably had good intentions, but that doesn't mean that the product wasn't offensive.
    As someone that has lived their lives in the Theatre world, the blackface, yellowface, brownface, and whiteface traditions are ultra-taboo. If you cast a black person in a traditionally white role or vice-versa, it is better just to let them look the way they look and move on with the story. Unless their is a specific reference to the race within, it is usually fine. That guy could have done a fun impression of Louis Armstrong without the Aunt Jamima Makeup.
    My apologies - I wasn't trying to imply it was you in particular, however, it could certainly be read that way, and this was the furthest thing from my intentions.

    In fact, at the time I was thinking of the people who wanted the name of a sporting stand changed, because it was named after the 1920s sporting legend Edward Stanley Brown, who had the unfortunate nickname of "Nigger" - thus, the stand being named the "E. S. 'Nigger' Brown Stand". It was also attempted to have his headstone changed to remove the word - however, the local aboriginal community strongly disagreed with this.

    Also, there have been many attempts to re-name the brand of cheese produced in Australia that ships under the name "Coon" or "Coon Cheese" which is named after it's American creator, Edward Coon.

    It should be noted - these are not particularly strong words in Australia. Nigger, in particular, is used almost casually amongst working class Australians to refer to friends and/or colleges of generally white or mixed race, though, admittedly, not amongst strangers or acquaintances. At risk of being painted as a racist, my father is generally known among myself and my friends interchangeably as either "Old man" or "Old nigger" - though for obvious reasons, unless it's amongst people with whom it will not cause offense, it's always "The old man". He even calls himself that quite often, and often refers to me affectionately as "Young nigger".

    However, in contrast to this, we're both also considered to be and recognized as Aboriginal men, having both received our paints and names from the Aboriginal community of Mt Isa, colloquially known as the "Mt Isa Mob". Old Arthur's mob considers us family. These are not things that are given lightly, especially considering my family are mostly white European of heritage.

    It's just seen mostly as a mimic of American slang, and while it is recognized to be offensive, most just accept it in the usual Australian sense with such things - without intending to or causing offense. Most Australians wouldn't even think to call Aboriginal Australians by this - though some do take offense.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • I think it is one of those cases when the historical context comes back to haunt the present. Blackface and yellowface performances stem from a time when there was a lot more stereotypical bigotry. There are echoes of that in the video, so even if, as you say, the performer meant no harm, it still evokes the era of minstrel shows, and therefore shows a certain ignorance on the performer's behalf.
  • Excluding the racism that is rampant, let's talk about what we want to expect from this film (for those who want to see it anyways)? I personally hope they won't dumb this film down to the point that there is no purpose for a fan of Avatar to see it. My worries come from the fact that Avatar is under the banner of Nickelodeon Movies banner, and I have been unfortunate to see a couple of films under that name and they almost always were really stupid. But the fact that M. Night is directing this gives me a little solace as I respect his work both as a filmmaker and movie-goer (except Lady in the Water).
    I have to say, I did not care for The Happening and as for the fate of the Avatar movie, I'm going to set my expectations pretty low because adaptation films have a pretty bad track record. That said I don't think Avatar will be as bad as the Dragonball movie
  • I have to say, I did not care for The Happening and as for the fate of the Avatar movie, I'm going to set my expectations pretty low because adaptation films have a pretty bad track record. That said I don't think Avatar will be as bad as the Dragonball movie
    This film takes on more fantasy elements than most of his "horror" films. It will be more like his direction of "Lady In The Water" (whether you liked the plot or not, that film was beautifully paced, shot, and well acted).
  • First photos of Aang and Zuko from the Avatar movie.I've gotta say, Dev Patel is perfect for the role of Zuko, gotdamn! After seeing him in Slumdog Millionaire, my complete and total trust is in him.
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