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When did "magic: the gathering" jump the shark?

... and why?
I've heard Rym and Scott mentioning a couple of times, that they stopped playing magic a long time ago (don´t remember which episode they said it, and which edition they stopped.) And I noticed there are a lot of ex-magic-players that show nostalgia towards old editions, but feel magic jumped the shark at some point.
I would like to know the different editions people stopped playing magic, and why. Especially if you are someone who cares about game design. I feel that the concept of magic changes all the time, even though the rules are relatively the same with every edition change.
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Comments

  • edited April 2014
    M:TG jumped the shark the moment it was created. Due to it's collectible pay to win nature, it's unplayable. Most of us just started playing it when we were young and naive. For me it was only in middle school. We stopped playing once our brains figured out it was Money: The Wasting.

    Once I figured that out, I realized what I really wanted was a customizable card game that was not collectible. Fantasy Flight made many such games, called LCGs, without me even realizing it. I didn't notice until they made Netrunner. And now Netrunner is my thing.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • I played from about Odyssey to Timespiral, which makes me old school by college kid standards. I stopped playing before most people I know started. I think there's a general power creep. You can get way more on your low mana cards than you used to. But, I think things are generally more balanced now, with fewer crazy-good cards.
  • edited April 2014
    Netrunner has jumped the shark as well. If you can't win with the core set against a expansion. They are forcing you to continually buy the expansions to stay competitive. P2W.

    If you bought all of Netrunner right now it would be like 200+ dollars, that's more then I ever spent on Magic cards :-p
    Post edited by Cremlian on
  • Cremlian said:

    Netrunner has jumped the shark as well. If you can't win with the core set against a expansion. They are forcing you to continually buy the expansions to stay competitive. P2W.

    If you bought all of Netrunner right now it would be like 200+ dollars, that's more then I ever spent on Magic cards :-p

    I spent way more than $200 on M:TG cards just during my time in middle school. A competitive M:TG deck that can win serious tournaments today costs more than a multiple full sets of Netrunner. And that's just one deck. You're probably going to want more than that because in order to practice and build up your skills you will need more than just one deck. Yes, there is a minimum cost of entry to play Netrunner, but that minimum is also the maximum. Bill Gates does not have a competitive advantage in Netrunner the way he does at M:TG. Anyone who can afford it is on exactly the same level, and it all comes down to the player.
  • You could possibly still win with a core set runner deck and some luck. Corp, you're gonna have a bad time. Too many good agendas you don't have access to. The overall problem isn't power creep, but a larger pool of cards creating powerful interactions. In Magic, a deck made out of the last three years' worth of cards will be more powerful than a deck made out of just the last year's.

    Still, my experience is the opposite of yours. Over the course of a year, I've spent a total of $270 on Netrunner including sleeves. I currently play 4-5 hours a week at meetups. In another life, I used to split cases of Magic cards that cost that much with my roommate every three months, and spent a lot of time worrying about and managing my collection instead of playing the game.

    I'll still participate in a M:tG Draft if I'm offered. No more constructed, though. Netrunner and now Hearthstone have dealt the game a 1-2 punch for me.
  • I still play MTG and have been playing for 10+ years. I do not think it has jumped the shark. In fact the game is getting better and better in my opinion. Designs become more and more sophisticated and since the setting, themes etc. change from year to year it always remains interesting.

    However, it is a somewhat expensive hobby. Yes, you will have to spend some money. However, there are measures and strategies in how to allocate that money. For example, I primarily play two formats: Limited and EDH. Limited is a format where you play with the cards you open from sealed booster packs at the site of the tournament. This of course has a cost, but I consider this the entry fee. You can also keep the cards you buy there, sell or trade them.

    EDH (Elder Dragon Highlander) a.k.a. Commander is an eternal formats. I've built decks and will keep those decks with some tweaks and updates over the years, as no cards rotate out of the format and thus I am not forced to replace them or even see my deck become entirely illegal. I'm also currently trying to build a somewhat competitive Modern deck. However, this format is also eternal, meaning the card pool only grows and cards for the most part keep their value. I consider this kind of a one-time investment, with the possibility to make my money back, or perhaps even make some money from it if I ever decide to get rid of those cards.
  • EDH is rad, it's the best casual way to play Magic. I have old EDH decks that I'd still break out - my favorite is the UR deck where every card is a land, a clone, or a fork.

    Do people still call it EDH, or has 'Commander' finally won out?
  • "Pay to Win" gets thrown around to mean a lot of different things.

    Net runner at least has a lower set price ceiling to have all available options. I will say, I didn't play the game enough to justify following it. I guess by strict definition it can be pay to win, but at least the cost is a known factor. I'd consider it basically the entry fee to get into the poker tournament (though for some reason we will still allow people to enter for less, and start with less chips, which really messes up the tournament fairness to all players and so-on).

    Admittedly, most MTG also has a price ceiling to be fully competitive in most modes of play. I have no problem with an MTG draft or something similar. So it still can be played pay-to-win or not.

    Dominion on the other hand, as another somewhat related game, absolutely does not have that pay-to-win component. New expansions may change the game, and experience or at least knowledge of all the cards and interactions incurred by all the expansions will let you win games, but since everyone is always playing from the same set of cards it's not pay-to-win.
  • You can't possibly hope to come up with an acceptable definition pay to win in a semantic debate. I'll just argue that Go is pay to win because a wealthier person can afford to spend their time studying Go instead of going to work. They can pay Go masters to train them. They can buy Go books and have time to read them.

    People who have more real world wealth necessarily have a competitive advantage in any endeavour, including games.

    The key things to watch out for are:

    1) The paying is going to the publisher/officiator of the game.
    2) The limit on how much you can pay the publisher/officiator to gain an advantage is very high or unlimited.
    3) The amount of money spent on the game is a greater indicator of success than other factors.
    4) Spending time (instead of money) on the game is rewarded with explicit in-game advantages (levels, equipment, etc.) in addition to the usual benefits of spending time on a game (i.e: practicing).

    Netrunner is just as much pay to win as cycling and golf. Yeah, the equipment you need to play can be moderately expensive. Yes, more expensive, optional, and potentially superior equipment is available. If you spend a bit more than someone else you may have an advantage over them. Someone who plays Netrunner with just a core set is like someone playing in the US open with crappy old golf clubs, or someone riding in the Tour de France with a steel frame bike.

    Farmville, if you can even call it a "game" is the extreme other end. Whoever has spent more time and money is better. Period. There is no limit on what you can spend.

    M:TG lies somewhere in the middle. There is a limit on what you can spend, but it is ludicrously high. Spending alone doesn't grant victory. You could give me the grand champion's M:TG deck, and I would not win without practicing, studying, and building my skills.

    The other key thing to look for is how much the spending matters. Consider two players. The novice and the champ. The novice knows the rules of the game, but hasn't practiced enough or gained a deep understanding of high level strategies. The champ is the champ.

    Obviously in either M:TG or Netrunner it is possible to make completely garbage decks. They won't win no matter who uses them, so let's consider decent decks vs. championship decks.

    In M:TG a novice with a decent deck will get crushed. A novice with a championship deck can do pretty well. M:TG champs with decent decks will do decently, but will probably lose to novices or average players with better decks. In Netrunner a novice with either deck will be completely demolished. The champs will rise to the top no matter what deck they have. Only against the other champs will their lackluster deck start to hurt them.

    The point is that spending matters more in M:TG than it does in Netrunner.
  • Netrunner is more easily described as "Pay to Play." You have to own the full set to be competitive, but there is no variability in the prices beyond that.
  • The friend I have who's still into Magic (and he's hugely into boardgames as well) plays sealed or booster draft games/tournaments. I want to say weekly or every other week. If you place high enough, your fee for the next tournament is covered. It just becomes a time investment then.

    In the right format, it's still a great game.

    It's not how I want to spend my time and money, though.
  • The game itself, if separated from the monetary aspect, is still rock-solid.

    The collectible aspect of things definitely made it needlessly costly.

    I'm more interested in games like Dominion, where we have deck building from a common pool. Of course, you could totally hack Magic to be like that, and it might be amazing.

    Definitely less expensive than fucking Warhammer, though, so I'm not really judging how anyone chooses to spend their money. Fuckin' 50 dollars for a few dolls? Why did I ever think that was a good idea?
  • Magic: The Gathering was dead as soon as the Marvel Overpower CCG came out. Everyone is still playing that one, amirite?
  • Jyhad is what killed magic. THAT was a card game. ;^)
  • What about Rage! Who remembers Rage?!

    I still remember what a Hecatomb card smells like...
  • Rym said:

    Jyhad is what killed magic. THAT was a card game. ;^)

    Shiiiiiiiiiit, I forgot this ever existed.

    Man, you go right for the throat.

    Did anyone ever play the L5R CCG? I always liked the setting, but I never really played the game at all.

  • Rym said:

    Jyhad is what killed magic. THAT was a card game. ;^)

    Shiiiiiiiiiit, I forgot this ever existed.

    Man, you go right for the throat.

    Did anyone ever play the L5R CCG? I always liked the setting, but I never really played the game at all.

    I saw people playing it at PAX AUS.
  • AEG still does VERY big numbers selling that game. The catch is that it's mostly international sales. Not surprised to see it being played at PAX AUS.
  • You know what I'm really curious about? "Cardfight!! Vanguard", and also "Weiß Schwarz" A couple years ago at CTCon some guy talked about Vanguard at the panel try-out panel. It still seemed like Yugi-Oh pay2win, but he described it in a way that it seemed like not the worst game ever. Probably no Netrunner, though.

    Schwarz is interesting just because of the theme. All the Vocaloid and Madoka characters. ZOMG.
  • Scott, you should talk to Luke, he is the American distributor of Schwarz I think.
  • Cremlian said:

    Scott, you should talk to Luke, he is the American distributor of Schwarz I think.

    The sole American distributor? That's kinda crazy. I see it all over the place. But it's also troubling because even though I see it everywhere, I don't see anyone actually playing it.

    Also, if he's just distributing, who is is translating, printing, publishing, marketing, etc.?
  • edited April 2014
    I think he gets exclusive rights the Japanese version in the US and also gets some of the "series" of English translations, if I remember correctly, It's been a while you can always ask him at Connecticon. I know he's big enough that they fly him to Japan once a year.
    Post edited by Cremlian on
  • Having friends that play cardfight constantly, it's pure bunk. The game's clan system is similar to Magic's colors, except you put yourself in a severe disadvantage if you use more than one clan. Even then, the decision making is reduced to only one effective strategy per clan. The game itself heavily relies on luck to either hit or to even bother continuing in the game.

    They also had a brief stint at Weiß Schwarz and called the rules pointlessly convoluted.
  • I'm actually banned from playing Schwarz because I'm not able to handle myself when the opportunity presents itself from referencing Spaceball.
  • ThatGent said:

    Having friends that play cardfight constantly, it's pure bunk. The game's clan system is similar to Magic's colors, except you put yourself in a severe disadvantage if you use more than one clan. Even then, the decision making is reduced to only one effective strategy per clan. The game itself heavily relies on luck to either hit or to even bother continuing in the game.

    They also had a brief stint at Weiß Schwarz and called the rules pointlessly convoluted.

    Oh well. That guy did a really good job of selling it, though.

    Why can't tabletop games of licensed properties be good?
  • We know why they can't be good. We know about MULTIPLE good implementations that property owners refused to allow/release...
  • With a game not based on a licensed property, every mechanic is designed around "what makes this a more fun game?" When it is based on a licensed property, you decide based on "what makes this most fun?" and "what fits best with the property this is based on?" Every time the latter influences a decision at all, the game gets worse.
  • Ooh, I have to argue with "worse." It's worse for one set of purposes and better for another (in theory, though I realize in practice most of the time it's just a total fail). Simulationist wargamers are still "playing games." For example.
  • "Worse" from a perspective of a balanced, competitive test of skill. Story/atmosphere can make up for this, but then your goal is fundamentally different.
  • pence said:

    What about Rage! Who remembers Rage?!

    I still remember what a Hecatomb card smells like...

    I still have all of the Rage cards I ever bought, and honestly would buy and play more if I could get anyone interested in playing.
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