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Rocket League

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  • Andrew said:

    No esport will ever take off until there is either:

    a: space on the screen dedicated to seeing reactions of players.

    b: time in the game dedicated to showing the reactions of the players.

    E-sports have already taken off.
    Generally, I mean take off with anyone outside of those who have played the specific game in question.
  • I've never played any of the major E-Sports games, but I still watch them occasionally.
  • Really? I'd be interested to know which games you've not played but still can get into as a spectator or fan or follower of results or teams.
  • The bias of following games that you have played is also present in sports.
    I watched baseball, basketball, soccer and tennis because I had previously played them. The one sport I hadn't competed in was motor racing.
  • Of course. We've all run and jumped and thrown and caught and hit balls with sticks or bats. And most people have ridden bikes or driven cars. Some people have even been in a fight. Most sports we can map our memories of those past experiences onto the professional sports person we see competing.

    I find there is a huge disconnect between even past computer games I've played and similar games I see played as esports. For example, I've played a lot of first person shooters, but if I don't know the characteristics of the weapons in a new game I'm watching, I've no idea if someone is good or not. What is the spread? Is a one shot kill possible? Are there random crits? What is the state of the armor? Are the rockets guided?

    As for Rocket League, I have no idea is anything I ever see in any video is hard or not. Or if it is rare or not. How much is controlled by the computer, and how much is down to the human? How strong is gravity?

    Just being in the real world means see athletic or skillful people play sports is impressive. None of that real world experience counts for anything with esports, only playing that specific game, or maybe a close variation of it.
  • In Rocket League everything is 10x harder than it looks. Any time a car leaves the ground to go up in the air, it's 100x harder than it looks.
  • There is a lot of visual intuition based on playing other games.
    Before I played Rocket League I could already tell how difficult it was to do most of the video highlights because I can approximate the physics and motions from playing car and soccer games in the past. Usually the stuff you see on computer game highlights are way harder to reproduce intentionally.

    I agree the approximation of difficult for a real world sport is easier simply because we are constantly living in it. However I have been guilty of critiquing sports players from a couch until I was in a similar situation (e.g. driving is so easy how is that a sport till I did go karting and driving when tired or for long periods.

    To your point though, yes it is hard for someone if they haven't played many games or that specific game to work out if something is difficult or easy.
  • This still isn't the esport that will go truly mainstream, but it's a step in the right direction (away from MOBAs).
  • What I want from any esport before I try to watch it or follow it:

    - Players using their REAL NAMES so I can identify with them as human beings, not strings of characters.

    - Players and/or teams using team colours or strips, both in person and with their in-game avatars/characters. These might not be visible to them or their opponents, but the spectator client must show them clearly.

    - Pauses between action (about every two minutes) to show replays of important or impressive moments.

    - Space on the screen to show the players reaction in real time to what is happening in the game.

    - Clear score keeping, always visible on screen.

    Is this small list really so hard to try?
  • edited September 2015

    What I want from any esport before I try to watch it or follow it:

    - Players using their REAL NAMES so I can identify with them as human beings, not strings of characters.

    - Players and/or teams using team colours or strips, both in person and with their in-game avatars/characters. These might not be visible to them or their opponents, but the spectator client must show them clearly.

    - Pauses between action (about every two minutes) to show replays of important or impressive moments.

    - Space on the screen to show the players reaction in real time to what is happening in the game.

    - Clear score keeping, always visible on screen.

    Is this small list really so hard to try?

    The first one isn't going to happen. The name they are using in the eSport IS their "real" name. Just like Rym's real name is Rym and PewDiePie's real name is PewDiePie. It's a cultural thing. You'll just have to deal with it old man.

    People do use team colors and things in big eSports. They have avatars, team colors, flags, team logos on the field. You probably just don't see them because you probably don't know what to look at.

    Pausing between the action to show replays is a matter of game design, and that goes for regular sports as well. Soccer doesn't pause unless someone gets a card, a penalty, out of bounds, etc. Football pauses constantly.

    With video games there is often no reason to stop. A game that constantly stopped would be less fun for players to play. Nobody wants to sit around waiting when they could be playing. Because video games can completely control the universe, there are no penalties, out of bounds, etc. The code prevents such scenarios, so play can continue without stopping. Stoppages are actually a flaw of meatspace sports which are bound only by the laws of physics on the field of play.

    Rocket League always stops for a replay of every goal, but if enough players vote, then that replay is skipped and play continues. The time for replays of esports is between games. Just about every game plays best of 3, 5 or 7, so there is plenty of time between those games to see replays.

    eSports do show player reactions, but they can only do that at major events where the players are there. To show player reactions when players are at home using Internet requires all those players to setup webcams and such, and there's no way to force or help them do that.

    There are also technological issues of streaming the player's face. If you are competing in a serious competition with a real time game like Rocket League you are not going to waste any CPU cycles or bandwidth on encoding and streaming a video of your face. That added latency could cost you the game. It can only happen if the player is at the competition in person, or they have a separate hardware and connection set aside for the video stream.

    Any game I have ever played has clear score keeping visible on screen, for games where there is even such a thing as a score. MOBAs do not have score. Players just play until one team wins. But their character/team levels are very visible on the screen. If that isn't big enough for you, the streamers can always apply a visual overlay showing any information or graphics they like for any game. It's up to them.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • I do not see stoppages as a flaw of meatspace sports. I see the stoppages as a major feature as a spectator:

    - It lets tension and pressure build before important moments.

    - It gives release of tension after important moments, giving shape to the experience.

    - It allows time for replays.

    - It allows time for commercial breaks so I can go get a drink or take a piss.

    I think soccer has enough breaks for fouls and other things. There's not often a moment worth a replay can't be shown again due to no break in the action.

    I think football is the other end of the spectrum. There's so little action that they are constantly trying to fill time between important moments. Between soccer and football are most other sports.

    At the extreme end, way past soccer, are most esports, which are just relentless. The constant action without break means there's no shape to any of the energy. Just constantly go, go, go, go, go.

    I don't care that the players want to just keep playing without a break. That's fine, if they are practicing. But in a major event that is trying to draw a large audience, breaks of play must be built in. Built in with code, or at least a tournament official controlling the play.
  • I can read and pronounce PewDiePie, and can see his face in all of his videos. That's why I can identify with him as a real person. For your argument to hold weight, pick a name made up of numbers and characters which you don't know how to pronounce, and a blank icon, and never knowing what the person looks or sounds like, and then try to tell me, with a straight face, that you can identify with that player as a real person.
  • I can read and pronounce PewDiePie, and can see his face in all of his videos. That's why I can identify with him as a real person. For your argument to hold weight, pick a name made up of numbers and characters which you don't know how to pronounce, and a blank icon, and never knowing what the person looks or sounds like, and then try to tell me, with a straight face, that you can identify with that player as a real person.

    I know that the name of the best Rocket league player is named Kronovi. I don't know anything about that person, other than that I've seen how their car moves when it plays Rocket League. That's enough for me to know that they are fucking holy shit incredible.

    Ice hockey is better when it stops less. Even though the action might not actually stop, there are still lulls for you to take a breath. All non-stop games played by humans have this as our humanity requires time to think, rest, recuperate, etc.

    Plenty of meatspace sports are "helmet leagues" where you can't see the player's faces or anything. All but the most famous players are complete unknowns. Even in a non-helmet league like baseball, many fans don't even recognize players on their own team when they are not in uniform. Doesn't seem to matter.

    These problems you are having are unique to you.
  • I think the seeing faces thing, or being able to identify from what they look like, is a personal preference. Honestly I'd have a hard time picking Tom Brady out of a lineup, but I know who he is when his team plays and that's all I care about.
  • Helmets aren't much a problem. The human body is expressive enough without having to see the face to pick up on the emotions before and after an important play.

    Ice hockey can keep going because (as far as I know) it's not the same players on the ice 100% of the time. Swapping players in and out lets the action continue without breaks. However, after a goal there's enough time to celebrate. The players might want to vote to carry on without a pause (though I doubt it), but the spectators and audience want to see the replays!

    The problems I'm having may be new to you, or I'm the first person you've talked to who has expressed them so clearly, but they are far from unique.
  • Helmets aren't much a problem. The human body is expressive enough without having to see the face to pick up on the emotions before and after an important play.

    But how would you equate this to a sport like F1? I get what you're saying but I don't think it's universal across sports. I do also agree with you that people shouldn't use goofy handles, but I guess that would be a hard thing to cut away from given game's online nature.
  • Aha! An edit I missed:

    There are also technological issues of streaming the player's face. If you are competing in a serious competition with a real time game like Rocket League you are not going to waste any CPU cycles or bandwidth on encoding and streaming a video of your face. That added latency could cost you the game. It can only happen if the player is at the competition in person, or they have a separate hardware and connection set aside for the video stream.

    This is another example of people picking holes in an idea, rather than reframing it as a simple problem to be solved.

    If a computer game is being developed as a mass market esport, this consideration would be built in to the specs of the game. If a game is kept simple enough, there would be plenty of CPU cycles to spend on video encoding. If not, the players' graphics settings could be lowered, to remove the flare and backgrounds, to make way for this overhead. As long as the spectators get the full experience, it's fine.

    As for bandwidth or latency, this would not be a problem at all if there was a break in the game play after a big moment.

    For example, the computer could be keeping the last 10 seconds of video in memory, and if there's a goal, it adds to that 10 seconds.

    As soon as a goal is scored, the live video is streamed to show the immediate reactions. In the case of an action replay, the players involved in the goal will begin streaming their 10 second video playbacks in time with the action replays. If there's a second or third action replay.

    You see? Instead of saying something is impossible, use intelligence to come up with a system that can connect the spectators with the emotions of the players involved.
  • Your ideas do not work. There is only a finite amount of computing power inherent in the hardware. If I'm seriously competing in a game depending on the performance of that hardware, I want 100% of the power of that hardware working towards making sure there isn't even one frame of lag or delay in the game itself. All of your suggestions do not change this fact.

    Also, video encoding is incredibly CPU intensive. It doesn't matter if the code that does that encoding is in the game itself or not. The CPU has to execute those instructions that have nothing to do with the game, and when it is doing so, the instructions the game wants to execute are going to wait more than 0 nanoseconds to get their turn.

    This is why when I stream video I leave all the streaming to a device that is completely separate from the device running the game itself. You just can't ask every athlete to set this up for themselves in their own home. They are busy being good at the game, not learning about how to do video production.
  • MATATAT said:

    Helmets aren't much a problem. The human body is expressive enough without having to see the face to pick up on the emotions before and after an important play.

    But how would you equate this to a sport like F1? I get what you're saying but I don't think it's universal across sports. I do also agree with you that people shouldn't use goofy handles, but I guess that would be a hard thing to cut away from given game's online nature.
    F1 has developed a different way for spectators to connect with the players and their emotions. During the race it's tricky, but that's why there's a big podium ceremony after every race. There are anthems, interviews, huge trophies, champagne spraying, all that kind of thing.

    Real names would be best for me, but I don't mind goofy handles too much. Rym is fine. PewDiePie is okay. B#+45gvec-FPF GrrssCLan is going to have a much harder job making me a fan.
  • MATATAT said:

    Helmets aren't much a problem. The human body is expressive enough without having to see the face to pick up on the emotions before and after an important play.

    But how would you equate this to a sport like F1? I get what you're saying but I don't think it's universal across sports. I do also agree with you that people shouldn't use goofy handles, but I guess that would be a hard thing to cut away from given game's online nature.
    F1 has developed a different way for spectators to connect with the players and their emotions. During the race it's tricky, but that's why there's a big podium ceremony after every race. There are anthems, interviews, huge trophies, champagne spraying, all that kind of thing.

    Real names would be best for me, but I don't mind goofy handles too much. Rym is fine. PewDiePie is okay. B#+45gvec-FPF GrrssCLan is going to have a much harder job making me a fan.
    Who has a name like that?
  • Funny enough, League of Legends already does a lot of what Luke wants. Everyone I know who is super into it knows the faces and handles of all the big players. I know a lot of the big players and I have favourite teams even though I'm barely invested.

    I think what eSports really needs is a sense of a "home team". I chose the teams I root for based on them having a player I've seen streams of, or just arbitrarily. Have big social media sites sponsor the teams to get some tribalism! I would be much more invested in watching the Tumblr Social Justice Warriors crush the Reddit Narwhals then I am in Cloud9 vs Invictus.
  • Big tournaments with the players in the same venue, with cameras on them, and with good commentary, can make a match engaging and accessible. I'm sure the top League of Legends tournaments are like that, but I mostly know this kind of stuff from CS:GO.



    Actually, looking at that video again, I'm totally up for having players use their real name. "Flusha" might sound cool to his team mates, and maybe to some other players, but to be taken seriously as a sport? A real name would be way more handy. Wikipedia gives real names for Ninjas in Pyjamas:

    Richard "Xist" Landstrom
    Patrik "f0rest" Lindberg
    Christopher "GeT_RiGhT" Alesund
    Adam "friberg" Friberg
    Aleksi "allu" Jalli

    Richard Landstrom is a waaaay cooler name than Xist. GeT_RiGhT? How old are you? 12?

    Anyway, one or two tournaments that are watchable per year, per esport, probably isn't good enough for a sustainable mainstream spectator sport.
  • Not that it's so big any more, but one event per year is about where boxing's at right now. And I bet those guys HAVE been using those names since they were 12.
  • I'm still experimenting a bit with camera settings to try and get something that overall works for me.
  • Funny enough, League of Legends already does a lot of what Luke wants. Everyone I know who is super into it knows the faces and handles of all the big players. I know a lot of the big players and I have favourite teams even though I'm barely invested.

    Same.

    What I want from any esport before I try to watch it or follow it:
    - Players using their REAL NAMES so I can identify with them as human beings, not strings of characters.

    As Scott says this is a cultural difference. In League of Legends tournaments everyone is introduced and titled with their real name with handle in quotes. Casters use real first name or handle based on how popular they are.
    e.g. Darshan "Zionspartan" Upadhyaya
    Is referred to in commentary as Darshan or "Zion" or "Zionspartan".

    - Players and/or teams using team colours or strips, both in person and with their in-game avatars/characters. These might not be visible to them or their opponents, but the spectator client must show them clearly.

    All pro teams have uniforms (even down to matching shoes and pants in some cases). The Koo Tigers (previously GE Tigers) from Korea were sponsored by a men's fashion brand last season and each game they played with various getups from collard shirts, ties and sweaters to suit jackets and bowties.
    image
    The logos of the teams are in game, usually close to the bases. There are skins for teams present in the game but a team only gets their skin in the game if they win the world championships and only for the most memorable characters they played. Making a different skin for reach character, for each team around the world would be infeasible.
    However there is an easy to tell colour difference in games as one team is blue vs red. The map is even denoted with different hues to show what part you're in.

    - Pauses between action (about every two minutes) to show replays of important or impressive moments.

    There are plenty of replays to be had in downtime in mobas and between games. Every 2 minutes is a bit too much.

    - Space on the screen to show the players reaction in real time to what is happening in the game.

    This happens in all major LAN tournaments for League of Legends, there is a separate camera for each player which is hooked up to its own feed, there are camera cuts during play both full screen and small version in during hype plays. You get to see the faces of all players more often than most meat sports.

    - Clear score keeping, always visible on screen.

    In Moba games the numbers are important and there is a separate client that shows this at all times at the top. You can get even more detailed live stats updated every second for every player by watching from a site. e.g. watch.lolesports.com during a live tournament these things are tracked and you can select what you want to see.

    Is this small list really so hard to try?

    Not it's not hard, it's been happening for years.

    In addition there are interviews, analysis, transition graphics, behind the scenes stuff, mini documentaries during the week and rivalry or hype videos to tell a story.

    You're watching ESL which is a hodgepodge of games and events rather than being specialised.
    Since Riot have such insane money, they have studios set up for all the weekly tournaments around the world, and production teams at each space.

    They even bring along production teams to smaller areas they visit, I had dinner with these guys at PAX Aus 2 years ago. They even bring their own servers and Internet connections to minimise problems.
  • Really? I'd be interested to know which games you've not played but still can get into as a spectator or fan or follower of results or teams.

    Street Fighter, LoL, and StarCraft are the only ones I've technically never played, but I watch Smash Bros., CS, and Halo tourneys and, compared to how they play, I might as well have never played.
  • Starfox said:

    Not that it's so big any more, but one event per year is about where boxing's at right now. And I bet those guys HAVE been using those names since they were 12.

    Really? I see boxing events advertised on TV year round, and could probably find live events in any big city.
  • Really? I'd be interested to know which games you've not played but still can get into as a spectator or fan or follower of results or teams.

    Street Fighter, LoL, and StarCraft are the only ones I've technically never played, but I watch Smash Bros., CS, and Halo tourneys and, compared to how they play, I might as well have never played.
    You've never played CS, Smash Bros, or Halo? I'm not asking what your level is, or how shit you are compared to the best.

    My point is that rocket league is a game with specific physics unique to that game. I've never played it, and the only videos I've seen so far seem to be the highlights of big matches. I presumed the point of the game was to fly around and hit the ball. Then Scott said anyone who can control the car in the air is an amazing player. I literally had no idea.
  • It seems LoL is the one game getting its act together. Now we just need other game developers to build these features into games that appeal to me more than Mobas.
  • Starfox said:

    Not that it's so big any more, but one event per year is about where boxing's at right now. And I bet those guys HAVE been using those names since they were 12.

    Really? I see boxing events advertised on TV year round, and could probably find live events in any big city.
    I mean matches big enough to leak out of the boxing world. At least in the US, maybe one or two a year get any press. Floyd Mayweather and... That's about it lately.
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