What's stopping me is that those "poor" countries tend to have stricter immigration laws than the USA does.
I know that some countries like Australia are very difficult to emigrate to, but I've never heard of it being difficult to emigrate to Mexico, India, etc. If it is indeed difficult to emigrate to Mexico, then how about this. We make a deal with the Mexican govt. Mexicans can just come over to our side if Americans can just as easily go over to their side. We can make this deal with each other country in the world, one at a time. If you want to do business with the US, and you want your people to be able to come to the US, then you have to let Americans come to your country as well.
The Mexican government ain't exactly keen on the US, you know. It's a means to an end. It's more of a deterent than anything. The chance of death will eliminate most would-be illegals. The rest are aware of the risk. We can't exactly throw em' in prison you know. We have more than enough people there, and deporting them hasn't done shit. Right to a trial? All we're doing now is catching and releasing, a move that hasn't helped at all. No shit, it's extreme, but better a few illegals now than the entire US 20 years from now. Do you realize just what would happen if this is allowed to continue for a prolonged period of time?
The Mexican government ain't exactly keen on the US, you know. It's a means to an end. It's more of a deterent than anything. The chance of death will eliminate most would-be illegals. The rest are aware of the risk. We can't exactly throw em' in prison you know. We have more than enough people there, and deporting them hasn't done shit. Right to a trial? All we're doing now is catching and releasing, a move that hasn't helped at all. No shit, it's extreme, but better a few illegals now than the entire US 20 years from now. Do you realize just what would happen if this is allowed to continue for a prolonged period of time?
First of all, no one has the right to take the life of anyone.
Many illegal immigrants get a tax I.D. and pay their taxes even though they do not get a health care plan from their work, many of them feel bad of using the american health system for fear to be deported, I was one of them.
Many pay taxes in hoping that one day if they get a legal means to become resident they have prove that they did not take advantage and they want a change in other place.
America is a land made from Imigrants, and it will grow that way wether you want it or not.
America is a land made from legal Immigrants, and it will grow that way whether you want it or not. fixed that for you If I steal a car, but pay taxes on it, I'm still a criminal.
Thank you Steve, I mess up there I guess I was rather exiteced while writting that part. But I wanted to say America is a land of immigrants, not nessarily illegal or legal. Through history people have come to this country to many different places in the world, some on boat, some by foot and some thorugh airplanes. Many came to visit or study in my case and then they decide to stay and start over again.
And Steve, be serious your analogy to counter balance my position does not work. First of all if a person steals a car it will never pay taxes for it, second of all if illegal imigrants pay taxes because they work and on top of that do not take advantage of any benefits who is the one winning? The country the gets the cheap labor, production and a little more of cultural exchange or the person that tries to support his/her family at less than 10 dollars per hour, pay its taxes, work for more than 10 hours without over time and do not take advange of any health care benefits for fear of getting caught.
If it is true that many go back to their countries, it is because they are tired of being persecuted, and to live in fear that at any time they might get caught by the police or anything like that.
I recently got my green card and I will never forget how I felt back then, with fear if I would be able to go to college, with fear of not getting enough money to go there because banks are not very keen to give loans to illegal immigrants. But still, many do not get stuck and try to succed even though many doors are closed down.
What I do not get is why people are so extreme to the point to give ideas of killing people just to stop them. That is not cool, not cool at all.
One more thing , were the first colonist legal or illegal imigrants? I am not sure, maybe if the native american had a concept of land or wonership they would have being illegals taking over their land, maybe they were legal because they had the concent of the King of Queen of England at that time. Now, I am sad of what happened to their culture after they got imbaded, it just stopped, it never evolved. Same thing of what happened to the Inkans at least some of the native american in north america survived. All the Inkan empire got obliterated however, most if not all Peruvians a proud in saying that they come from the Inkans while keeping the spanish part of our heritage apart. I guess that is because Spaniards from that time were so racist that no one in Peru wanted to be identified with them.
Enforcement on the borders first. Building walls on the borders second.
The bill Congress wants to pass is a bad bill that does not go far enough. After we do the first two points I was talking about, then we can talk about 12 million illegal aliens that are here.
The first Europeans were not immigrants, they were invaders. Do you know who gets to write the history books? The winners do.
My analogy is perfect. You are trying to excuse your illegal activity because you pay taxes. So, why can't I get my illegal activity excused because I paid taxes on it?
I'm not saddened by the loss of one culture because they were defeated by a stronger culture. I will not be ashamed of victory! I am saddened that knowledge was lost.
The Aztecs blew it because their leader was superstitious and thought Cortez was a god returning from the East. His own people stoned him to death later. You can read up on the history of the Aztecs and the Spanish at your own leisure.
The first Europeans were not immigrants, they were invaders. Do you know who gets to write the history books? The winners do. My analogy is perfect. You are trying to excuse your illegal activity because you pay taxes. So, why can't I get my illegal activity excused because I paid taxes on it? I'm not saddened by the loss of one culture because they were defeated by a stronger culture. I will not be ashamed of victory! I am saddened that knowledge was lost. The Aztecs blew it because their leader was superstitious and thought Cortez was a god returning from the East. His own people stoned him to death later. You can read up on the history of the Aztecs and the Spanish at your own leisure.
I am not trying to excuse myself for anything that I have done in the past, and I will never do such as thing, well only if I hurt other people, but I don't do that. Your example does not work because it is illogical, while the example that I gave is logical, a person tries to do anything that is legit as long as it is possible or they just want to avoid any problem that might rise from not paying taxes, like I subscribe to the elective service while I was an illegal imigrant because I did not wanted to have any problems in the future. Granted that if I ever fight a war but only for my believes an not for the desires of others.
I am from Peru which is in South America, so it is Inkan, Aztecs and Mayans are from Central America, get your geography right :P And I know everything I have to know about Pre-Columbian cultures, history, rites, myths and food thank you very much :P
Omnutia: Dealing with the root of the problem is even more unrealistic. You do realize that improving the world as a whole would require humongous levels of coordination usually only seen in properly run empires? The political climate today prevents benefiting the world as a whole nigh impossible. All we can do is make sure our own country doesn't go down the crapper and hope others follow suit.
Scott: Do you have any idea what 100% open borders would do to our current system? How would we account for all the people coming in and killing our unfortunately unprivatized Healthcare and educational systems? How would we get them to pay their taxes? Are we just going to screw over the people who were on the waiting list to get in? The cost of living in the southwest would become enormous! I have an idea, though. How bout' we allow a greater volume of LEGAL immigrants to enter. The catch is, they don't get to pick where they go or what they do. Send em' all to the midwest to farm or something.
chronocross: In an ideal world, there wouldn't be a need to kill. Unfortunately, that's not the case. And why should a human life hold any value on the basis that it's a life? Each human is merely the sum of their parts. Putting a value on a bag of flesh alone is sentimental and overidealistic. "The greatest good for the greatest number." As you may have noticed, I favor Utilitarian methods. In this case, allowing illegals to run unchecked ain't gonna do too much good, hmm? I this case, the greatest good is not fucking over the people already in the US. The greatest number should be the current citizens and any people with skills that we decide to let in.
America is land made from immigrants? You mean like ANY OTHER DAMN COUNTRY? No shit immigrants help, but we need a very specific kind of immigrant. We don't need cheap labour, we need engineers. Do you see any engineers running across the border? I think not. This isn't about "immigrants' rights." This is about our interests versus theirs. They need menial work. We need people with skills, not people who can help our cheapskate companies save a bit of cash.
chronocross: In an ideal world, there wouldn't be a need to kill. Unfortunately, that's not the case. And why should a human life hold any value on the basis that it's a life? Each human is merely the sum of their parts. Putting a value on a bag of flesh alone is sentimental and overidealistic. "The greatest good for the greatest number." As you may have noticed, I favor Utilitarian methods. In this case, allowing illegals to run unchecked ain't gonna do too much good, hmm? I this case, the greatest good is not fucking over the people already in the US. The greatest number should be the current citizens and any people with skills that we decide to let in. America is land made from immigrants? You mean like ANY OTHER DAMN COUNTRY? No shit immigrants help, but we need a very specific kind of immigrant. We don't need cheap labour, we need engineers. Do you see any engineers running across the border? I think not. This isn't about "immigrants' rights." This is about our interests versus theirs. They need menial work. We need people with skills, not people who can help our cheapskate companies save a bit of cash.
First of all I beliebe in the sanytity of all life that is why I stated that "one has the right to take the life of anyone", back when I was little it hurt to see and watch bull fighting becasue it was just plain wrong,
Second of all, not all countries are made from immigrants, there are countries like China, Japan, Korea, India, etc. By the way I know at least 3 doctors, 2 engineers, one dentist, and one geologist that are working here and had to leave because either was a civil war in their countries and they did not wanted to side to any band, they need to support their family somehow or they just want to start a new life in a new place.
Ceartinly no one will understand how one person feel until that person put him/herself in the other person shoes.
The fact of the matter is that you can't save everyone. Call me what you want, but I believe in natural selection among humans. Simply put, only the strong, the intelligent, and the cunning should survive.
Anyway, we don't need to understand how the "other person" feels. What matters is the results of their actions. Right now, illegals are damaging our economy and making a mockery of our immigration system. What would you have to say to the people on the waiting list that get screwed over by illegals?
Hopefully Mr. Period will correct my mistakes, sorry Mr. Period :P
I won't call you anything because of what you believe, that is just dumb, and inmature :P
Anyhow, I do believe illegals are making mockery of american immigration system, it is just so darn funny :P , come one. People on the border struggle to get in here and for much guns, and scary tactics that anyone will putover there they will not just give up. And many do not give up until the very end. That is human nature at its core, the desire to contine fighting for what they want.
What do I say to the people that get screwed over illegals. Well, let me see I waited for about 6 years to get my residency papers while I was in what we call "Limbo" in immigration terms, I wasn't legal nor illegal. The thing is that if you have enter the country illegaly it is going to be very hard to get the papers, mostly there is no way, and it is very hard to see how many people will not get the recidency because of them. And I believe that while I was in the waiting list it never crossed my mind that they will get it before me.
Also the way america divide visas between countires around the world is very weird. In Peru for example, if you want to get a visa to USA you need a car, a house earn more than 40000 dollars a year and a very stable job, and that is to visit for less than a month, and it was like that since 1980.
There is also the lottery of visas, where you are chosen by pure luck, many of the chosen ones come here but then get dilusioned by the reality/ cultural shock and they return to Peru, others stay here just to give the residency to their closest relatives (which is about to change is another immigration bill is passed)
I've been watching the news (CNN) today since Shay was watching it when I woke up, and Bush is pushing this amnesty bill pretty damn hard.
I'm a conservative republican, but even I can't back Bush on this one.
And you know how you can tell when some fishy shit is going down? Teddy "My car is a boat!" Kennedy is teamed up with anyone at all who isn't super far leftest. That alone sets of my spidey-senses.
Let bring this back to the Front burner. Living in the state of Arizona the have pushed though the state legislature and signed by the Governor the so called tough Immigration law in the Country. One thing it does is it allows law Enforcement to check if a person is in the United State illegally, and only if they have reasonable suspension. Now living 30 miles( 48.2 KM) from US-Mexico we have had drug runners come and kill people in their own homes and run back across the border. Now I am insulted my the placing of re fried bean Swastikas on the AZ stat capital I am insulted based on my German and Mexican heritage. I am normal taking a wait and see attitude on thing like this, but this does push my buttons. The laws is not even being enforced yet and people are taking a pessimistic view. Something did need to be done and maybe this is the wrong way of doing it. By doing vandalism is also the wrong way of doing it. I have lived in other country and in some you must have your passport on your person at all time. And if you want to talk about Racial profiling look at Japan. You can be put in jail for just being near a crime and not being Japanese.
Jon Steward gave some very good points regarding this recent immigration law in Arizona. I live in Virginia and since I got my Work Permit and later on my when I got my Green Card I have always carried my card with me. Mostly because one of my aunts once told me that if I don't carry it with me and for some reason some authority needs it I would be charge with 1000 dollars, but not sent to jail. Many of my friends that are immigrants and some that live in Arizona are really angry and people are speculating that the next Governor of Arizona will be a democrat.
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the law will make it mandatory for police and other government officials to check for legal status of anyone that any other official may consider suspicious. Additionally (and more importantly) if they do not check, and another official would have deemed the person suspicious, then the office or official faces penalties including losing their job and fines. 1) How is this feasible? 2) How can this be accomplished without racial profiling?
How can this be accomplished without racial profiling?
It can't. They'll check every Mexican-looking person and never check "white" people. From my experience there, the interior checkpoints (well inside the border) waive white people through and stop every vaguely Hispanic looking person.
Basically, nothing will be different under the new law, except that the officers will have more legal ways to harass Hispanics.
How can this be accomplished without racial profiling?
It can't. They'll check every Mexican-looking person and never check "white" people. From my experience there, the interior checkpoints (well inside the border) waive white people through and stop every vaguely Hispanic looking person.
Basically, nothing will be different under the new law, except that the officers will have more legal ways to harass Hispanics.
All moral issues aside, that is such an inaccurate criteria to use in such a search. 1) There are a massive number of legal immigrants who appear Hispanic that live in Arizona. 2) Many Hispanic people appear "white" because they are of mixed race or Castilian decent. My sister lives in Mexico and has two children with her Mexican ex-husband. Her children and her ex-husband both appear "white" and her former in-laws all have lighter skin and hair tones (as do many Mexicans).
All moral issues aside, that is such an inaccurate criteria to use in such a search. 1) There are a massive number of legal immigrants who appear Hispanic that live in Arizona. 2) Many Hispanic people appear "white" because they are of mixed race or Castilian decent. My sister lives in Mexico and has two children with her Mexican ex-husband. Her children and her ex-husband both appear "white" and her former in-laws all have lighter skin and hair tones (as do many Mexicans).
All moral issues aside, that is such an inaccurate criteria to use in such a search. 1) There are a massive number of legal immigrants who appear Hispanic that live in Arizona. 2) Many Hispanic people appear "white" because they are of mixed race or Castilian decent. My sister lives in Mexico and has two children with her Mexican ex-husband. Her children and her ex-husband both appear "white" and her former in-laws all have lighter skin and hair tones (as do many Mexicans).
Yup. That's why the law is bullshit.
Nah, the moral issues are why it is bullshit. The practical issues make it asinine.
I believe my list of "States I don't consider part of the US anymore" is now: Texas: For a school board unforgivable uneducated bigots. Utah: For making miscarriage a crime. Arizona: For the flagrant and pointless legalization of racism.
I believe my list of "States I don't consider part of the US anymore" is now: Texas: For a school board unforgivable uneducated bigots. Utah: For making miscarriage a crime. Arizona: For the flagrant and pointless legalization of racism.
Sorry, that was me accidentally signed in as my Katie-poo.
I believe my list of "States I don't consider part of the US anymore" is now: Texas: For a school board unforgivable uneducated bigots. Utah: For making miscarriage a crime. Arizona: For the flagrant and pointless legalization of racism.
Sorry, that was me accidentally signed in as my Katie-poo.
Comments
The Mexican government ain't exactly keen on the US, you know. It's a means to an end. It's more of a deterent than anything. The chance of death will eliminate most would-be illegals. The rest are aware of the risk. We can't exactly throw em' in prison you know. We have more than enough people there, and deporting them hasn't done shit. Right to a trial? All we're doing now is catching and releasing, a move that hasn't helped at all. No shit, it's extreme, but better a few illegals now than the entire US 20 years from now. Do you realize just what would happen if this is allowed to continue for a prolonged period of time?
First of all, no one has the right to take the life of anyone.
Many illegal immigrants get a tax I.D. and pay their taxes even though they do not get a health care plan from their work, many of them feel bad of using the american health system for fear to be deported, I was one of them.
Many pay taxes in hoping that one day if they get a legal means to become resident they have prove that they did not take advantage and they want a change in other place.
America is a land made from Imigrants, and it will grow that way wether you want it or not.
If I steal a car, but pay taxes on it, I'm still a criminal.
America is a land made from legal Immigrants, and it will grow that way whether you want it or not. fixed that for you If I steal a car, but pay taxes on it, I'm still a criminal.
Thank you Steve, I mess up there I guess I was rather exiteced while writting that part. But I wanted to say America is a land of immigrants, not nessarily illegal or legal. Through history people have come to this country to many different places in the world, some on boat, some by foot and some thorugh airplanes. Many came to visit or study in my case and then they decide to stay and start over again.
And Steve, be serious your analogy to counter balance my position does not work. First of all if a person steals a car it will never pay taxes for it, second of all if illegal imigrants pay taxes because they work and on top of that do not take advantage of any benefits who is the one winning? The country the gets the cheap labor, production and a little more of cultural exchange or the person that tries to support his/her family at less than 10 dollars per hour, pay its taxes, work for more than 10 hours without over time and do not take advange of any health care benefits for fear of getting caught.
If it is true that many go back to their countries, it is because they are tired of being persecuted, and to live in fear that at any time they might get caught by the police or anything like that.
I recently got my green card and I will never forget how I felt back then, with fear if I would be able to go to college, with fear of not getting enough money to go there because banks are not very keen to give loans to illegal immigrants. But still, many do not get stuck and try to succed even though many doors are closed down.
What I do not get is why people are so extreme to the point to give ideas of killing people just to stop them. That is not cool, not cool at all.
One more thing , were the first colonist legal or illegal imigrants? I am not sure, maybe if the native american had a concept of land or wonership they would have being illegals taking over their land, maybe they were legal because they had the concent of the King of Queen of England at that time. Now, I am sad of what happened to their culture after they got imbaded, it just stopped, it never evolved. Same thing of what happened to the Inkans at least some of the native american in north america survived. All the Inkan empire got obliterated however, most if not all Peruvians a proud in saying that they come from the Inkans while keeping the spanish part of our heritage apart. I guess that is because Spaniards from that time were so racist that no one in Peru wanted to be identified with them.
The bill Congress wants to pass is a bad bill that does not go far enough. After we do the first two points I was talking about, then we can talk about 12 million illegal aliens that are here.
My analogy is perfect. You are trying to excuse your illegal activity because you pay taxes. So, why can't I get my illegal activity excused because I paid taxes on it?
I'm not saddened by the loss of one culture because they were defeated by a stronger culture. I will not be ashamed of victory! I am saddened that knowledge was lost.
The Aztecs blew it because their leader was superstitious and thought Cortez was a god returning from the East. His own people stoned him to death later. You can read up on the history of the Aztecs and the Spanish at your own leisure.
I am not trying to excuse myself for anything that I have done in the past, and I will never do such as thing, well only if I hurt other people, but I don't do that. Your example does not work because it is illogical, while the example that I gave is logical, a person tries to do anything that is legit as long as it is possible or they just want to avoid any problem that might rise from not paying taxes, like I subscribe to the elective service while I was an illegal imigrant because I did not wanted to have any problems in the future. Granted that if I ever fight a war but only for my believes an not for the desires of others.
I am from Peru which is in South America, so it is Inkan, Aztecs and Mayans are from Central America, get your geography right :P And I know everything I have to know about Pre-Columbian cultures, history, rites, myths and food thank you very much :P
Scott: Do you have any idea what 100% open borders would do to our current system? How would we account for all the people coming in and killing our unfortunately unprivatized Healthcare and educational systems? How would we get them to pay their taxes? Are we just going to screw over the people who were on the waiting list to get in? The cost of living in the southwest would become enormous! I have an idea, though. How bout' we allow a greater volume of LEGAL immigrants to enter. The catch is, they don't get to pick where they go or what they do. Send em' all to the midwest to farm or something.
chronocross: In an ideal world, there wouldn't be a need to kill. Unfortunately, that's not the case. And why should a human life hold any value on the basis that it's a life? Each human is merely the sum of their parts. Putting a value on a bag of flesh alone is sentimental and overidealistic. "The greatest good for the greatest number." As you may have noticed, I favor Utilitarian methods. In this case, allowing illegals to run unchecked ain't gonna do too much good, hmm? I this case, the greatest good is not fucking over the people already in the US. The greatest number should be the current citizens and any people with skills that we decide to let in.
America is land made from immigrants? You mean like ANY OTHER DAMN COUNTRY? No shit immigrants help, but we need a very specific kind of immigrant. We don't need cheap labour, we need engineers. Do you see any engineers running across the border? I think not. This isn't about "immigrants' rights." This is about our interests versus theirs. They need menial work. We need people with skills, not people who can help our cheapskate companies save a bit of cash.
chronocross: In an ideal world, there wouldn't be a need to kill. Unfortunately, that's not the case. And why should a human life hold any value on the basis that it's a life? Each human is merely the sum of their parts. Putting a value on a bag of flesh alone is sentimental and overidealistic. "The greatest good for the greatest number." As you may have noticed, I favor Utilitarian methods. In this case, allowing illegals to run unchecked ain't gonna do too much good, hmm? I this case, the greatest good is not fucking over the people already in the US. The greatest number should be the current citizens and any people with skills that we decide to let in. America is land made from immigrants? You mean like ANY OTHER DAMN COUNTRY? No shit immigrants help, but we need a very specific kind of immigrant. We don't need cheap labour, we need engineers. Do you see any engineers running across the border? I think not. This isn't about "immigrants' rights." This is about our interests versus theirs. They need menial work. We need people with skills, not people who can help our cheapskate companies save a bit of cash.
First of all I beliebe in the sanytity of all life that is why I stated that "one has the right to take the life of anyone", back when I was little it hurt to see and watch bull fighting becasue it was just plain wrong,
Second of all, not all countries are made from immigrants, there are countries like China, Japan, Korea, India, etc. By the way I know at least 3 doctors, 2 engineers, one dentist, and one geologist that are working here and had to leave because either was a civil war in their countries and they did not wanted to side to any band, they need to support their family somehow or they just want to start a new life in a new place.
Ceartinly no one will understand how one person feel until that person put him/herself in the other person shoes.
The fact of the matter is that you can't save everyone. Call me what you want, but I believe in natural selection among humans. Simply put, only the strong, the intelligent, and the cunning should survive.
Anyway, we don't need to understand how the "other person" feels. What matters is the results of their actions. Right now, illegals are damaging our economy and making a mockery of our immigration system. What would you have to say to the people on the waiting list that get screwed over by illegals?
I won't call you anything because of what you believe, that is just dumb, and inmature :P
Anyhow, I do believe illegals are making mockery of american immigration system, it is just so darn funny :P , come one. People on the border struggle to get in here and for much guns, and scary tactics that anyone will putover there they will not just give up. And many do not give up until the very end. That is human nature at its core, the desire to contine fighting for what they want.
What do I say to the people that get screwed over illegals. Well, let me see I waited for about 6 years to get my residency papers while I was in what we call "Limbo" in immigration terms, I wasn't legal nor illegal. The thing is that if you have enter the country illegaly it is going to be very hard to get the papers, mostly there is no way, and it is very hard to see how many people will not get the recidency because of them. And I believe that while I was in the waiting list it never crossed my mind that they will get it before me.
Also the way america divide visas between countires around the world is very weird. In Peru for example, if you want to get a visa to USA you need a car, a house earn more than 40000 dollars a year and a very stable job, and that is to visit for less than a month, and it was like that since 1980.
There is also the lottery of visas, where you are chosen by pure luck, many of the chosen ones come here but then get dilusioned by the reality/ cultural shock and they return to Peru, others stay here just to give the residency to their closest relatives (which is about to change is another immigration bill is passed)
I'm a conservative republican, but even I can't back Bush on this one.
And you know how you can tell when some fishy shit is going down? Teddy "My car is a boat!" Kennedy is teamed up with anyone at all who isn't super far leftest. That alone sets of my spidey-senses.
Many of my friends that are immigrants and some that live in Arizona are really angry and people are speculating that the next Governor of Arizona will be a democrat.
1) How is this feasible?
2) How can this be accomplished without racial profiling?
Basically, nothing will be different under the new law, except that the officers will have more legal ways to harass Hispanics.
My sister lives in Mexico and has two children with her Mexican ex-husband. Her children and her ex-husband both appear "white" and her former in-laws all have lighter skin and hair tones (as do many Mexicans).
EDIT: Arizona, you're on the shit list.
Texas: For a school board unforgivable uneducated bigots.
Utah: For making miscarriage a crime.
Arizona: For the flagrant and pointless legalization of racism.