How can this be accomplished without racial profiling?
It can't. They'll check every Mexican-looking person and never check "white" people. From my experience there, the interior checkpoints (well inside the border) waive white people through and stop every vaguely Hispanic looking person.
Basically, nothing will be different under the new law, except that the officers will have more legal ways to harass Hispanics.
We have family members in Arizona. If they ever stop my dad while I'm with him, I'll ask to be checked.
well, from what I remember if you have a green card if you are in the country legal. what this law does is allow local and state law enforcement to ask to see if you have one. Being that my father was in the military and having lived in Europe, I had to have my military Id on me all the time , just in case the police ask me why I was their. Why is the US,state, or local government not have the right to ask the same thing. We now know when the law will be enacted on July 29, 2010. I say we see if it fall flat on it face, first. And let the lawyer at least make a real days pay and not on a Stupid Starbucks lawsuit on hot tea.
well, from what I remember if you have a green card if you are in the country legal. what this law does is allow local and state law enforcement to ask to see if you have one. Being that my father was in the military and having lived in Europe, I had to have my military Id on me all the time , just in case the police ask me why I was their. Why is the US,state, or local government not have the right to ask the same thing. We now know when the law will be enacted on July 29, 2010. I say we see if it fall flat on it face, first. And let the lawyer at least make a real days pay and not on a Stupid Starbucks lawsuit on hot tea.
There are exceptions - for example, if you enter the US on a marriage Visa, Though you're not a citizen, nor do you have a green card, you are able to work, though after 12 months, you are given a green card, if I'm remembering right - the legalese and recursive wierdness is dense while investigating US visas.
I'm fairly certain the law is both asinine AND bullshit.
There is no way to tell between a citizen and a legal immigrant. Citizens are not required to carry their papers, so how can the cops tell the difference between someone who is required to carry papers and someone who isn't? There are Hispanic citizens in this country. Do they let anyone who claims to be a citizen go free, or do they detain them? This should be struck down on so many grounds it's not even close to funny. 4th Amendment unreasonable searches, 14th Amendment due process, 14th Amendment equal protection, void for vagueness in its instructions to law enforcement... and probably more.
After spending some time in Japan, I am intrigued by the immigration debate. Japan is in major trouble as their population ages. The very few immigrants can't make up for Japan's extremely low birth rate.
However, all of those jobs that "only an immigrant would want to do" still get done by the Japanese. Exceptions are few. In Japan, those jobs pay better because the market demands as much.
My anecdotal observation is that immigrants take the least desirable jobs, but U.S. citizens would take those jobs if the pay was higher. I don't buy a rigid argument that "no Americans want these jobs." Under that theory, we wouldn't have any garbage men. But guess what. It's a job that pays well, and the positions get filled.
My belief is that Americans want illegal immigrants doing certain jobs - but only certain jobs. Do you ever hear people complaining that they can't get work as a vegetable picker? I doubt it. The complaining only starts over higher paying jobs.
Most illegal immigrants can only work on those "certain jobs". It is hard to find an illegal immigrant working non demanding physical jobs, the most they can do is to find a job at a fast food restaurant. During my time on "immigration limbo", I didn't had a social security number but I had a tax id. I was only able to work on a brick cutting/keystone making company to pay for my college tuition since none other company wanted to hire me since I didn't had a SSN back then, and I was not about to get fake papers. Not that a fake green card, or ssn would help a lot since now they can easily verify the authenticity of both of them. During the first year at my work back in 2004 my boss received letters from the social security administration informing him that the social security that my father and I used were not in their files and that he needed to send them the real ones. We had to send a letter informing them that we were using our tax ids, explaining that we were on "immigration limbo" it was a hassle to say the least. VA is not the friendliest place for illegal/psudo-illegal immigrants, mostly because it is very hard for them to go from one place to another since most of them can't obtain a driver's license. But, they still make do by riding bicycles or carpooling. Most of the people that I know only go from work to their home mostly because they are afraid to be detain by the police, well at least in Prince William County.
I have mixed opinions about this. My mother, my sister and my brother are all legal immigrants. My mother and my sister are both really educated and well placed in their positions. My mother was a professor at KY and my sister is the youngest person to get a real private office at her company. But I know my people, I know that a big part of the population here would just like to immigrate to run away from their social situation just to try and make more money at the cost of anything, including their vote.
Look at the positive side. They've just answered the question of where to store all the nuclear and toxic wastes that no one wants in their back yards.
Look at the positive side. They've just answered the question of where to store all the nuclear and toxic wastes that no one wants in their back yards.
What is the big fear concerning the AZ immigration law?
"Papers, please."
The bigger problem is that it's unenforceable. How do you determine whether or not to investigate whether or not a person is an illegal or not? Find a way that doesn't involve profiling.
It's actually the lack of specifics in the law that is the problem, and not the presence of any specific passage.
The problem is that a citizen is not required to carry identification proving he or she is a citizen, and there are plenty of citizens of non-white ancestry. The police have a problem if they stop someone and demand papers, only to have the person claim to be a citizen of the US. They must now either let the person go free or place them under arrest. Placing a citizen under arrest for not having proof of citizenship on them is unconstitutional under the 4th Amendment. This law provides no way for the police to distinguish between citizens and illegal aliens. That is the problem.
A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution. A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
1. A valid Arizona driver license. 2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license. 3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification. 4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.
Section 11-1051 B.
Okay, so they can't consider those factors listed above. What, then, do they use to determine you are likely to be an illegal? Carrying the IDs listed above creates a presumption of legality, but what if you're a citizen not carrying one of those things? Then what do the cops do? Arrest you for not having ID on you? That's perfectly legal if you're a citizen. It's only if you are an alien that this law requires you to carry proof that your presence here is legal. So we are back to the question of how to differentiate between a citizen and an illegal alien.
And yet...
This section shall be implemented in a manner consistent with federal laws regulating immigration, protecting the civil rights of all persons and respecting the privileges and immunities of United States citizens.
I believe Nuri did an excellent job of summing up the problems with the law. If you didn't catch my meaning, though, I'm saying that the only way to actually enforce the law is to demand papers from citizens that you're questioning. They have no way of actually determining who to question before asking for those papers. Again, how would you suspect someone of being here illegally?
Yes, it is a problem for citizens and I belive statistics show about 1% of deportations along the southern border invovle American citizens wrongly deported. I would link but I'm posting from my phone.
However, legal immigrants are required under federal law to carry papers AND the Constituion provides us with the benefit of a presumption of innocence.
This will probably become of those laws that is hardly enforced but serves to frighten illegals into not crossing the border in the first place.
How would you solve the illegal immigration problem?
The proper way to oppose this law is not with Nazi imagery. That shit is about as over-used as the race card and many see it as the dying gasp of a losing argument.
The best way to fight this law is to base your argument on the experience of citizens wrongly deported. Focus on the presumption innocence built into our Constitution. Focus on the fact that Americans do not carry citizenship cards.
Just don't use racial or nazi shit when making your point.
Easier to become a citizen? It already is super easy.
Besides getting married, becoming a citizen of the USA is super hard. I know it because it took me and my family about 7 years, I have known people that have being waiting for their green card for more than 5 years. I had a work permit but not a work VISA (H1B) so I was not allow to go back to my country same goes with my supervisor back in my internship who had a Ph. in Chemitry, he is still waiting for his green card so he can visit his family in Romania. It is true the process becomes super easy if you go and get a fake marriage. I know many of them, in some of them the couple actually fall in love eventually. However, besides that you only get two chances: through a work VISA, or through a US Green Card lottery.
Easier to become a citizen? It already is super easy.
In that case, Tell me exactly what I have to do to get this super easy citizenship. Because I'm trying to sort out so much as a work visa, let alone a citizenship, and it's nigh-on-fucking-impossible. Tell me exactly what I have to do, and I will do it.
At this point, my only vaguely reasonable option is to get married, it's looking like.
At this point, my only vaguely reasonable option is to get married, it's looking like.
Hey, good-lookin'!
Seriously though...
Perhaps a better way to go about policing the immigration problem is keeping better tabs on local employers. The problem is that the employers want cheap labor and the illegals can provide them with it. Make it not worth the risk for the employers. The state doesn't want to do that because it doesn't want to piss off business and drive it elsewhere. So instead, they enact a law that is incredibly vague and leaves the enforcement provisions open to too much interpretation. Suck it up and tell the businesses no, they cannot employ illegals while the government turns a blind eye in exchange for occasional raids. Tell them they will be checked to make sure they are employing legal workers. It's a much more reasonable way to go about it, it they are worried about limiting the influx of people.
I offer you tax breaks and my array of skills. I'm also quiet, don't take much room, don't each much, don't shed much, and I'm house-broken. *Puppy dog eyes*
Comments
There is no way to tell between a citizen and a legal immigrant. Citizens are not required to carry their papers, so how can the cops tell the difference between someone who is required to carry papers and someone who isn't? There are Hispanic citizens in this country. Do they let anyone who claims to be a citizen go free, or do they detain them? This should be struck down on so many grounds it's not even close to funny. 4th Amendment unreasonable searches, 14th Amendment due process, 14th Amendment equal protection, void for vagueness in its instructions to law enforcement... and probably more.
However, all of those jobs that "only an immigrant would want to do" still get done by the Japanese. Exceptions are few. In Japan, those jobs pay better because the market demands as much.
My anecdotal observation is that immigrants take the least desirable jobs, but U.S. citizens would take those jobs if the pay was higher. I don't buy a rigid argument that "no Americans want these jobs." Under that theory, we wouldn't have any garbage men. But guess what. It's a job that pays well, and the positions get filled.
My belief is that Americans want illegal immigrants doing certain jobs - but only certain jobs. Do you ever hear people complaining that they can't get work as a vegetable picker? I doubt it. The complaining only starts over higher paying jobs.
VA is not the friendliest place for illegal/psudo-illegal immigrants, mostly because it is very hard for them to go from one place to another since most of them can't obtain a driver's license. But, they still make do by riding bicycles or carpooling. Most of the people that I know only go from work to their home mostly because they are afraid to be detain by the police, well at least in Prince William County.
Well played, Arizona, you racist fucks.
What is the big fear concerning the AZ immigration law? Please cite passages in the law to backup said fear.
The bigger problem is that it's unenforceable. How do you determine whether or not to investigate whether or not a person is an illegal or not? Find a way that doesn't involve profiling.
The problem is that a citizen is not required to carry identification proving he or she is a citizen, and there are plenty of citizens of non-white ancestry. The police have a problem if they stop someone and demand papers, only to have the person claim to be a citizen of the US. They must now either let the person go free or place them under arrest. Placing a citizen under arrest for not having proof of citizenship on them is unconstitutional under the 4th Amendment. This law provides no way for the police to distinguish between citizens and illegal aliens. That is the problem.
no ticket.
Okay, so they can't consider those factors listed above. What, then, do they use to determine you are likely to be an illegal? Carrying the IDs listed above creates a presumption of legality, but what if you're a citizen not carrying one of those things? Then what do the cops do? Arrest you for not having ID on you? That's perfectly legal if you're a citizen. It's only if you are an alien that this law requires you to carry proof that your presence here is legal. So we are back to the question of how to differentiate between a citizen and an illegal alien.
And yet... Section 11-1051 L. (emphasis added)
Yes, it is a problem for citizens and I belive statistics show about 1% of deportations along the southern border invovle American citizens wrongly deported. I would link but I'm posting from my phone.
However, legal immigrants are required under federal law to carry papers AND the Constituion provides us with the benefit of a presumption of innocence.
This will probably become of those laws that is hardly enforced but serves to frighten illegals into not crossing the border in the first place.
How would you solve the illegal immigration problem?
The best way to fight this law is to base your argument on the experience of citizens wrongly deported. Focus on the presumption innocence built into our Constitution. Focus on the fact that Americans do not carry citizenship cards.
Just don't use racial or nazi shit when making your point.
Did you mean to suggest upping the number of legal immigrants allowed into the country?
It is true the process becomes super easy if you go and get a fake marriage. I know many of them, in some of them the couple actually fall in love eventually. However, besides that you only get two chances: through a work VISA, or through a US Green Card lottery.
At this point, my only vaguely reasonable option is to get married, it's looking like.
Seriously though...
Perhaps a better way to go about policing the immigration problem is keeping better tabs on local employers. The problem is that the employers want cheap labor and the illegals can provide them with it. Make it not worth the risk for the employers. The state doesn't want to do that because it doesn't want to piss off business and drive it elsewhere. So instead, they enact a law that is incredibly vague and leaves the enforcement provisions open to too much interpretation. Suck it up and tell the businesses no, they cannot employ illegals while the government turns a blind eye in exchange for occasional raids. Tell them they will be checked to make sure they are employing legal workers. It's a much more reasonable way to go about it, it they are worried about limiting the influx of people.