But one could say that you didn't even play Burning Wheel. You played something similar with mostly same rules, but not the same thing. I don't say your game was bad, or even wrong really, but I'm not sure that you played exactly Burning Wheel. Can't really tell though, "Awesome shit happened!" isn't really an Actual play post.
But one could say that you didn't even play Burning Wheel. You played something similar with mostly same rules, but not the same thing. I don't say your game was bad, or even wrong really, but I'm not sure that you played exactly Burning Wheel. Can't really tell though, "Awesome shit happened!" isn't really an Actual play post.
I don't exactly take recordings, unfortunately, so it's a matter lost to time. Either way, I don't care - It was, at the very least, burning wheel based, and here's the meat of the issue - my players enjoyed the hell out of themselves. That's all that really mattered.
But one could say that you didn't even play Burning Wheel.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Not that that's necessarily a problem:
and here's the meat of the issue - my players enjoyed the hell out of themselves. That's all that really mattered.
Because this is true. Everyone had a good time, so all is well.
My issue is that you've (Churba) made a lot of statements of opinion about Burning Wheel - that it "holds your hand" or "coddles" you through roleplaying - when you haven't actually played the game the way it's intended.
I could be misreading your statements a bit, but let me break down my interpretation of your play session. You said, in effect, "I did X, Y, and Z to my players." In Burning Wheel, the GM says, "We did X, Y, and Z in the game." Your first rundown of the game sounded exactly like the summary I hear from a GM that puts his players on a railroad, and Burning Wheel explicitly says not to do that as part of its rules.
You got the players collaborating, but you seem to think that playing to the Beliefs is somehow "falling back" or somehow being a weak GM. Re-read the Brown Book, because it expressly tells you that that is not the case. I think this is where your argument of the Beliefs being hand-holding is coming from. The Beliefs are not there to dictate the game to the players or the GM; they are the in-game manifestation of the player priorities. The Beliefs tell everyone what everyone wants. It's not "falling back" to play to the Beliefs, it's listening to your players. That's the difference.
I mean, think about it. A lot of times, you have to "figure out" what people really want in any given situation. This is where that stereotypical male lament about women not coming with instructions comes from. Sure, you can probably figure out what your players want at the gaming table. In fact, what you describe is exactly how I used to DM my D&D; games; I would throw a vague mystery at the players, they'd gab about it for a while, and then I'd take the story in the directions they talked about. Burning Wheel does that shit for you. It pressed A a long time ago. You might not need it, sure, but it doesn't hurt to have. By writing Beliefs openly and discussing them aloud with everyone, you remove all ambiguity from the situation. At worst, it's insurance against GM arrogance, and if you're any good as a GM, you've been arrogant before.
So no, you might not need to do it, but your arguments about how Burning Wheel does roleplaying are way off base because you've never actually done what Burning Wheel tells you to do.
I'm thinking back to your first bout with The Sword, where you got fucked over royally. Burning Wheel, when played as intended, is designed to take care of that situation. Both you and your other players went into that situation wanting different things - that much was made obvious during the discussion. You wanted intense roleplaying, and someone else wanted to fuck around with the mechanics. If the players and the GM openly discuss Beliefs and their intent in the game before they play, you can prevent that conflict from ever happening.
tl;dr: Beliefs are player priorities. They tell the GM expressly what the player wants from the game. Centering the game around the Beliefs isn't "falling back" or anything that that implies; it is in fact the ultimate manifestation of listening to your players. The rules of Burning Wheel make it 100% clear that this is how you are supposed to play the game. If you don't do that, that's OK, but it renders your arguments about your experiences with Burning Wheel useless. It's like going to a restaurant you've never been to, ordering a dish you've never had, dumping salt all over it, and then complaining to the chef that the food sucks.
My issue is that you've (Churba) made a lot of statements of opinion about Burning Wheel - that it "holds your hand" or "coddles" you through roleplaying - when you haven't actually played the game the way it's intended.
At no point did I say I wasn't re-considering my position. I won't say I've enjoyed playing, and I'm not going to reconsider my position of that I'm not going to play without Luke Crane as the GM - though I might expand it out to some more vague standard, like "Luke Crane approved" or something, get him a nice big rubber fuckin' stamp - because I'm a stubborn, obstinate fucker - but GM'ing a game was mighty enjoyable. I'll see how it bears out. I won't say you're entirely right, yet, but I'll consider it at length, about the length of a campaign, in fact.
I won't say you're entirely right, yet, but I'll consider it at length, about the length of a campaign, in fact.
I'll add this bit:
Like I said, I used to GM exactly in the manner that you've described. On the nose. That's how I did D&D;, and I think those were great games. My players seemed to enjoy them as well.
The problem is that you're never 100% sure if your players are completely satisfied with what's going on when you do that. When I picked up Burning Wheel, I realized that it was a vastly superior way to do what I was already trying to do. Writing 3 Beliefs is a challenge for most players, because it forces them to distill their character down to very obvious and outright points at any given moment. They're totally free to change those Beliefs, but doing so is an active thing.
Basically, the game requires the players to announce their intentions and desires at all times. As a GM, I love it. I don't have to do anything anymore, and I can actually focus on adjudicating and coming up with interesting challenges. Once I'm no longer trying to figure out what the players want, I find that I'm free to make much more interesting contributions to the story.
Believe me, let the game work for you. Discuss Beliefs and goals with the players, and I'm confident that you'll find, as I did, that your play will go much, much smoother.
I'm a stubborn git and control freak myself, so trust me when I say that I know it can be hard to switch gears. It's not even necessarily a pride thing; you just get used to having things run in a regular, predictable way. It's comfortable. I love comfort. I was leery of Burning Wheel when I first started playing, too, but ever since I put that aside and jumped in, I haven't looked back.
Believe me, let the game work for you. Discuss Beliefs and goals with the players, and I'm confident that you'll find, as I did, that your play will go much, much smoother.
I'll try it next session, but It's hard to imagine it going smoother. They already bought my beer for the last effort, if I'm not careful, they'll start trying to hook me up with their sisters, or something.
I'm a stubborn git and control freak myself, so trust me when I say that I know it can be hard to switch gears. It's not even necessarily a pride thing; you just get used to having things run in a regular, predictable way. It's comfortable. I love comfort.
I'm not, really, and I didn't have much control over that session. It was 90% them, and the only reason I say 90% is that 10% of it was simply worldbuilding, as you would with any new session. Next session, I'm expecting damn near 100%. Curiously, that was the hardest part of adopting my personal philosophy that I've spoken of before - letting the control go some, and just letting things happen when they happen a lot more.
I was leery of Burning Wheel when I first started playing, too, but ever since I put that aside and jumped in, I haven't looked back.
Curiously, after listening to Luke and Jared on the podcast, I'm actually more leery, rather than less. The only reason I suggested burning wheel to these guys is because one of them had bought the books for the collective group library, they were still in the shrink wrap, and I knew at least a little about it, rather than nothing, like some of the other games.
they'll start trying to hook me up with their sisters
I'm not seeing a problem here.
Curiously, after listening to Luke and Jared on the podcast, I'm actually more leery, rather than less.
What part made you leery? The BW philosophy sounds like it's completely in line with what you want to do: open, honest, direct discussion of player motivations, with the GM centering the game around those motivations.
Yes, but if they do it all at once, that'd be time consuming and expensive - money and time at a premium, right now. HA! Yeah, right. There's only one way I can pick up, and that's by disturbing everyone by defying stunningly ludicrous amounts of unlikeness.
What part made you leery?
Because, frankly and bluntly, I got the impression that Luke seems to be an elitist cock, who sneers down his nose at all other roleplaying games as these nasty, crude and terrible things, and that irritates the metaphorical piss outta me - And after all, there's more than a little of the creator in every work he or she creates. Jared, not so much, I kinda liked him, though I'll reserve my opinion till I hear more of him.
who sneers down his nose at all other roleplaying games as these nasty, crude and terrible things
I'm coming into this conversation late and taking this quote out of context, but I'm just here to say that if anyone told me that Paranoia, DRYH, or Feng Shui were "crude," I would deliver the Hundred Hand Slap straight to their junk.
While we're on the subject of RPGs, I just realized that the Dresden Files RPG is finally out. Anyone seen it? Anyone interested? As far as I understand, this is sort of the final version of the FATE system that Spirit of the Century was a test-run for.
While we're on the subject of RPGs, I just realized that theDresden Files RPGis finally out. Anyone seen it? Anyone interested? As far as I understand, this is sort of the final version of the FATE system that Spirit of the Century was a test-run for.
Yeah, I'd totally buy it if I had any chance of actually getting a gaming group together. I don't have a lot of interest in the Dresden Files setting, but I want to see how the system shaped up. The version of FATE in SOTC looked like a pretty much perfect system to me. Never got a chance to actually play it -- I did get a small group together, but we only got through character creation before it fell apart because one guy moved out of town. However, that character creation session felt like playing a game in itself, which is one of the strengths of the FATE system, I think.
Also, I'm pretty sure I could play that on the dige, but not absolutely sure. It doesn't sound hard, but I have a little trouble with the ripples, and my circular breathing and lung capacity ain't so hot anymore.
Anyway, more dige.
Something a little more modern? Your wish is my command -
This Reddit post makes me want to make a sealed self-sustaining aquarium (seems more interesting than a terrarium) of my own. Having a traditional aquarium has always seemed really boring, but this might be an actually interesting challenge. The biggest barrier will be finding the time and space to do this.
I'm sure a few people here know that Disney's The Black Hole is getting a remake. What has reached my ears however, is that the Tron: Legacy team is going to remake it.
There's nothing special about this video*, it's just a great song, some good old school rock, with some big, big guitar. Sit on my Knee, by Dallas Crane Feat Jimmy Barnes.
*- Apart from an appearance by Chopper Reid, three 7ft tall Drag Queens, the Hong De Lion Dance Association and some circus school students.
Comments
My issue is that you've (Churba) made a lot of statements of opinion about Burning Wheel - that it "holds your hand" or "coddles" you through roleplaying - when you haven't actually played the game the way it's intended.
I could be misreading your statements a bit, but let me break down my interpretation of your play session. You said, in effect, "I did X, Y, and Z to my players." In Burning Wheel, the GM says, "We did X, Y, and Z in the game." Your first rundown of the game sounded exactly like the summary I hear from a GM that puts his players on a railroad, and Burning Wheel explicitly says not to do that as part of its rules.
You got the players collaborating, but you seem to think that playing to the Beliefs is somehow "falling back" or somehow being a weak GM. Re-read the Brown Book, because it expressly tells you that that is not the case. I think this is where your argument of the Beliefs being hand-holding is coming from. The Beliefs are not there to dictate the game to the players or the GM; they are the in-game manifestation of the player priorities. The Beliefs tell everyone what everyone wants. It's not "falling back" to play to the Beliefs, it's listening to your players. That's the difference.
I mean, think about it. A lot of times, you have to "figure out" what people really want in any given situation. This is where that stereotypical male lament about women not coming with instructions comes from. Sure, you can probably figure out what your players want at the gaming table. In fact, what you describe is exactly how I used to DM my D&D; games; I would throw a vague mystery at the players, they'd gab about it for a while, and then I'd take the story in the directions they talked about. Burning Wheel does that shit for you. It pressed A a long time ago. You might not need it, sure, but it doesn't hurt to have. By writing Beliefs openly and discussing them aloud with everyone, you remove all ambiguity from the situation. At worst, it's insurance against GM arrogance, and if you're any good as a GM, you've been arrogant before.
So no, you might not need to do it, but your arguments about how Burning Wheel does roleplaying are way off base because you've never actually done what Burning Wheel tells you to do.
I'm thinking back to your first bout with The Sword, where you got fucked over royally. Burning Wheel, when played as intended, is designed to take care of that situation. Both you and your other players went into that situation wanting different things - that much was made obvious during the discussion. You wanted intense roleplaying, and someone else wanted to fuck around with the mechanics. If the players and the GM openly discuss Beliefs and their intent in the game before they play, you can prevent that conflict from ever happening.
tl;dr: Beliefs are player priorities. They tell the GM expressly what the player wants from the game. Centering the game around the Beliefs isn't "falling back" or anything that that implies; it is in fact the ultimate manifestation of listening to your players. The rules of Burning Wheel make it 100% clear that this is how you are supposed to play the game. If you don't do that, that's OK, but it renders your arguments about your experiences with Burning Wheel useless. It's like going to a restaurant you've never been to, ordering a dish you've never had, dumping salt all over it, and then complaining to the chef that the food sucks.
Like I said, I used to GM exactly in the manner that you've described. On the nose. That's how I did D&D;, and I think those were great games. My players seemed to enjoy them as well.
The problem is that you're never 100% sure if your players are completely satisfied with what's going on when you do that. When I picked up Burning Wheel, I realized that it was a vastly superior way to do what I was already trying to do. Writing 3 Beliefs is a challenge for most players, because it forces them to distill their character down to very obvious and outright points at any given moment. They're totally free to change those Beliefs, but doing so is an active thing.
Basically, the game requires the players to announce their intentions and desires at all times. As a GM, I love it. I don't have to do anything anymore, and I can actually focus on adjudicating and coming up with interesting challenges. Once I'm no longer trying to figure out what the players want, I find that I'm free to make much more interesting contributions to the story.
Believe me, let the game work for you. Discuss Beliefs and goals with the players, and I'm confident that you'll find, as I did, that your play will go much, much smoother.
I'm a stubborn git and control freak myself, so trust me when I say that I know it can be hard to switch gears. It's not even necessarily a pride thing; you just get used to having things run in a regular, predictable way. It's comfortable. I love comfort. I was leery of Burning Wheel when I first started playing, too, but ever since I put that aside and jumped in, I haven't looked back.
Curiously, that was the hardest part of adopting my personal philosophy that I've spoken of before - letting the control go some, and just letting things happen when they happen a lot more. Curiously, after listening to Luke and Jared on the podcast, I'm actually more leery, rather than less. The only reason I suggested burning wheel to these guys is because one of them had bought the books for the collective group library, they were still in the shrink wrap, and I knew at least a little about it, rather than nothing, like some of the other games.
EDIT: BWAHA!
Also, I'm pretty sure I could play that on the dige, but not absolutely sure. It doesn't sound hard, but I have a little trouble with the ripples, and my circular breathing and lung capacity ain't so hot anymore.
Anyway, more dige.
Something a little more modern? Your wish is my command -
Sit on my Knee, by Dallas Crane Feat Jimmy Barnes.
*- Apart from an appearance by Chopper Reid, three 7ft tall Drag Queens, the Hong De Lion Dance Association and some circus school students.