EDIT: Omnutia: You can say that amassing stats is trivial, or that the style of an MMO is a poor game, but fundamentally, all video games suck. Super Mario Brothers, for example, is a timing game; push the button at the right time a whole bunch and you win. How is that different from WoW? Pretty much every game ever made is an objectively bad game; the important factor is how much fun you have with it, and claiming otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
Mario is a test of skill. A test of physical hand-eye coordination skill. How much you value that skill is questionable, but it is a test of skill. WoW tests time. All you have to do to win is sit there longer. Persistence is all that matters. I guess you could say that the skill that WoW tests most is patience.
I haven't played TF2 in weeks.
WoW is ALSO a game of hand-eye coordination. You have to push buttons with the right timing, Scott. How do you think you play WoW? Do you even know? Do you think you just click on a dude, sit back, and watch some stuff happen? You actually have to give active input into the game, sometimes a lot of active input. It's pretty much EXACTLY the same as playing a platform jumper with a little bit of FPS maneuvering.
Omnutia: Yes, I do get enjoyment out of WoW. As I've stated, I largely do arena PvP, which is dynamic and interesting; it's actually more complicated overall than the interactions of TF2. That part is quite fun. The rest of my WoW time is dedicated to other PvP, or doing things to get me better gear or hone my skills to be more competitive in the arena. If I log on, and don't really feel like doing anything, I log off and do something else. It's simple; I play the parts that are fun and skip the parts that aren't.
I'm actually becoming pretty much done with TF2 myself. As I said above, WoW PvP is actually MORE challenging than TF2, largely because there's NOTHING I can do to get better at TF2. Period. In WoW, I can get better gear or try new specs, to get new tricks to use against my opponents and try to get an edge.
Italicsand ALL CAPS and Bears, oh my! (looks like someones clutching at straws.) Ask yourself, Is the act of playing the game play fun? Is the actual act of moving a character around, selecting attacks, hitting things, etc.. fun? If you play a game not for the enjoyment of playing it but for the reward that could be given to you anyway without you having to play the game then the game itself is not fun and thus a bad game. This I believe to be true with WoW. Would you also say this is correct and if not for what reason?
Ad Homenims, oh my! (Looks like someones clutching at straws.) You automatically assume that people don't enjoy the game, I say you are wrong. People do enjoy the game. Some people do find moving a character around, selecting attacks and hitting things enjoyable. It may not be true for you, but not everyone.
Also, try to make sure that you have won the debate before sounding like an asshole.
WiP: Do you enjoy actually pointing and clicking? Are you enjoying yourself because of how you play or for the reward. Is pointing and clicking and moving around, etc.. really satisfying you?
WiP: Do you enjoy actually pointing and clicking? Are you enjoying yourself because of how you play or for the reward. Is pointing and clicking and moving around, etc.. really satisfying you?
Like I said, I don't play. Why, because that doesn't seem satisfying to me. But, look at Pete, he enjoys the game, a lot from the looks of it. That's all that matters. BTW, aren't FPS' just moving around, pointing and clicking? Perhaps you should be a little more verbose.
BTW, aren't FPS' just moving around, pointing and clicking? Perhaps you should be a little more verbose.
But do you find that basic mechanism enjoyable? To be more verbose, Silver is roughly the same overall game but the mechanic of having to slash your swords was way cool and while it wore off what game never devolved into a mindless grind. Wow, we haven't even got started on grinding..
WiP: Do you enjoy actually pointing and clicking? Are you enjoying yourself because of how you play or for the reward. Is pointing and clicking and moving around, etc.. really satisfying you?
Like I said, I don't play. Why, because that doesn't seem satisfying to me. But, look at Pete, he enjoys the game, a lot from the looks of it. That's all that matters. BTW, aren't FPS' just moving around, pointing and clicking? Perhaps you should be a little more verbose.
I wouldn't say I enjoy WoW a LOT. I enjoyed Portal a lot; if there were some kind of MMO with the gameplay and challenge of Portal, I don't think you'd ever hear from me again. WoW is just the best incarnation of what I'm looking for at the moment. Even TF2 is now comparatively boring.
WiP hit it exactly, and I'll say it again: you play games because you enjoy them. Yes, it's because you enjoy the underlying mechanics. Invariably, all video games are just a matter of twiddling things, and not much else. Pushing buttons or clicking the mouse, whatever you do, is just some form of twiddling. Counterstrike is just a glorified version of "click on the box," which is really just "push buttons with the right timing." You layer things on top of those fundamentals, add in some arbitrary rules to mix things up, add in some enjoyable aesthetics, and you get a game.
People who enjoy video games, fundamentally, enjoy clicking on things and watching a response. Hell, that goes all the way down to human brain wiring; we're curious, exploratory creatures, who prod things and look at responses. That's how pretty much all of human civilization, ever, was built. We learned how to do things by, effectively, pushing buttons, fiddling with things, and figuring stuff out. The entire concept of "enjoying" those things is probably a necessary component of brain chemistry to encourage us to figure stuff out, just like the orgasm exists to encourage procreation.
In other words, I like clicking on things and pushing buttons because that's what I'm wired to do. If you like Counterstrike, you're pretty much wired the same way, with maybe a little variation here and there from various societal factors. If you want to be reductionist about it, go all the way: We're genetically wired to enjoy video games. There's no conscious choice involved.
Or, rather, game developers recognize and capitalize on human brain wiring. That doesn't mean you still don't enjoy it, though; knowing WHY I enjoy a thing doesn't necessarily change the fact that I DO enjoy it.
I'm actually becoming pretty much done with TF2 myself. As I said above, WoW PvP is actually MORE challenging than TF2, largely because there's NOTHING I can do to get better at TF2. Period. In WoW, I can get better gear or try new specs, to get new tricks to use against my opponents and try to get an edge
Let's back the truck up there shall we. WoW's pvp sucks total and complete butt. In TF2 you can beat your counter class if you are good enough but that's almost impossible to do in WoW. My mage was always hosed by a decently geared warlock every time due to the locks greater health, dots, and a pet that specifically eats my buffs. There is a lot of talent builds for characters, but there are only 2 to 3 that are worth using.
The best part of WoW is going on adventures with your friends and getting a reward at the end like experience or some items. WoW stops being fun when you get to the max level and suddenly the only way to get a reward is to do a dungeon that takes several hours a day for several days or compete in a player vs player system for several months. It was because of WoWs crappy endgame that I quit the game.
Italicsand ALL CAPS and Bears, oh my! (looks like someones clutching at straws.) Ask yourself, Is the act of playing the game play fun? Is the actual act of moving a character around, selecting attacks, hitting things, etc.. fun? If you play a game not for the enjoyment of playing it but for the reward that could be given to you anyway without you having to play the game then the game itself is not fun and thus a bad game. This I believe to be true with WoW. Would you also say this is correct and if not for what reason?
First of all, the reward is fun because you had to work for it. If someone just gave you all the best items in a game without any work it would just seem bland and unrewarding. So techinically, there is no way to just "give you the reward anyway" because then there would be no reward if you put nothing in. Basically, any "work" you have to do amplifies the satisfaction of the outcome you get from it. This satisfaction, imo, is enough to make the whole overall experience fun. There is also a sort of purpose for spending time on an MMORPG. If you play, say 10 hours of an FPS then all you get is that 10 hrs of enjoyment (not that thats bad) but every hour you spend in an MMORP is still there. Investing time in the game has an impact on future experiences, it means something. In this way, you can say that playing any other game is a waste of time, because nothing comes out of it, whereas in MMORPG your time means something. MMORPG's in general have varying different levels of gameplay that apeal to many kinds of people and that is why they are so popular. I, for example, love best about MMORPG's because of the ability to customize your characters. When you spend hours building up your hero, you feel a certain attachment to it. It acts as your cyber-self manifestation; it is not just a character you control but an extension of you. This sort of relationship can never occur in other games.
I'm actually becoming pretty much done with TF2 myself. As I said above, WoW PvP is actually MORE challenging than TF2, largely because there's NOTHING I can do to get better at TF2. Period. In WoW, I can get better gear or try new specs, to get new tricks to use against my opponents and try to get an edge
Let's back the truck up there shall we. WoW's pvp sucks total and complete butt. In TF2 you can beat your counter class if you are good enough but that's almost impossible to do in WoW. My mage was always hosed by a decently geared warlock every time due to the locks greater health, dots, and a pet that specifically eats my buffs. There is a lot of talent builds for characters, but there are only 2 to 3 that are worth using.
The best part of WoW is going on adventures with your friends and getting a reward at the end like experience or some items. WoW stops being fun when you get to the max level and suddenly the only way to get a reward is to do a dungeon that takes several hours a day for several days or compete in a player vs player system for several months. It was because of WoWs crappy endgame that I quit the game.
Not bad, except you're deep Arcane specced. I'd eat you for breakfast.
If you're talking about 1v1 combat, that's easy; the game is not balanced around 1 on 1, because yes, it's rock/paper/scissors. However, even given that, each class has enough potential variety with the talent options to be able to deal with a lot of situations. You CAN overcome your class counter if you play cleverly; just recently, the best PvP warrior in the game lost a duel to a rogue. A sub-optimally specced rogue, at that, at least as far as dueling a warrior goes.
If you look back, I've been talking very specifically about ARENA PvP, which is a team-based effort. Other kinds of PvP are different; the arena PvP is specifically what I was referencing. I also never claimed it was awesome; I enjoy it, and I contend that it's better than TF2 because each class has access to more tactical options, but that doesn't mean it's awesome. I would say that ARENA PvP in WoW is pretty good, but it could use some tweaking. *coughnerflockscough*
Also, I don't know how you can say that you can beat your counter class in TF2 if you're good enough. Usually, if they're as good at their class as you are at yours, the counter class will own your face every time. As a heavy, if a sniper is as good a sniper as I am a heavy, I CANNOT win at range. I have to go way around and get behind the sniper, at which point I have the advantage. In any game like TF2, you only beat your counter if they suck, or you're really good (which is effectively the same as them sucking). It's no different in WoW, except that each class has MORE versatility with their talent specializations. If you're good enough, or maybe cleverly specced, you can outsmart your counter class.
When you moved away from Rochester, you missed having people around to play games with. When you two moved in together, you had at least the two of you, but you still missed having the opportunity to play games that required more than 2 players. You said things to that effect on this very show, in the years before the "entire" FRC was in the area.
You dismissed an entire genre of games which you might have found very enjoyable at that time in your life. You could have played WoW, or any other, similar game, with other friends from all over the world.
Why the hell do you think I play?
I mean, seriously: do you think I play because I like to push up numbers?
It's about PEOPLE. Not random people on a TF2 server. The same people, every day, whenever you want to play. And it isn't just one game; there are many different activities within the game.
It would be like if everyone you knew played the same several games, all of which could be launched from a single chat client, which you kept open even while playing the games, just in case someone else wanted to say hi.
Or did you not realize that the most important part of WoW, or any MMO, is that little mini-IRC window at the bottom?
It's about PEOPLE.
IT...IS...ABOUT...PEOPLE.
All of your arguments about gameplay are irrelevant.
Any one multiplayer game--I don't care if it's a Portal/Pokemon/Guitar Hero hybrid--cannot compare, because it is just one game.
World of Warcraft is a *world*, in which you'll find many people. You can make friends with them. You can form a guild. You can bring your RL friends into the game.
It's similar to other forms of multiplayer gaming, but it is completely irreplaceable by traditional multiplayer games alone.
And to dismiss it despite this is to make a blanket statement about 9 million people, many of whom are your friends (or at least used to be).
That isn't to say the gameplay is great, or terrible. The fact is, the gameplay is such that I've managed to stay interested in the game for 3 years; no other video game, in my entire life, has come close to that. But it's not the gameplay, it can't be; what game is that good? Seriously?!
It's the PEOPLE.
It's my friends from Rochester who still bug me to get online. How else are we going to communicate? We could chat on Google Talk. Or, we could chat while also playing, without losing anything. Hell, it gives us something to talk about, and brings others into the conversation. Maybe my friends would like to talk to other people as well as me, and outside of IRC (and who uses that now, really?), what are they going to do?
It's also my friends and roommates here in California. Sure, we can get together and play board games or Burning Wheel, or go to the beach or something, and we do! Lots! WoW is just one more thing we can do together. None of them...not a one...wants to play a shooter with me. News flash: only a fraction of gamers like that sort of game. A larger proportion of the wide gamer base seems to like WoW.
It's a game with wide appeal, that has succeeded in attracting many types of gamers. Some are hard-core raiders. Some are hard-core PvPers. Most...the VAST majority...are casual gamers, who either want to solo for a while, or get together with friends and do an instance or two. Of course, they could do both, or neither! They can just stand in town crafting things while shooting the shit about last night's episode of Heroes.
It's about the PEOPLE.
I have played in private WoW servers. I configured my own. After the initial 5 minutes of fun having god-like powers, you realize how empty the game is without the other 20,000 people on the server. And don't give me "well that proves the game sucks". WTF do you do in a TF2 map with no other people?! Sure, single player games don't have that problem. Is WoW bad because it isn't a single-player game, because that argument pretty much says all multi-player games are bad.
It's about the PEOPLE.
People who, time and time again, have invited you to join them, or leave them the fuck alone.
You chose neither. You take every opportunity to bash a game you know dick about. Do you understand how annoying that is? Do you REALLY want me to start giving you shit about Pokemon, Burning Wheel, and every Wii game ever? What the fuck would you say to me if I bashed your favorite games every chance I got? Would you really, honestly say that you didn't mind? You'd be on me like white on rice, and you both fucking know it.
Yeah, it's about people. I can have people sitting in a room. I can have them on a forum. I can have them with IM, e-mail, Skype, telephones, TeamSpeak, or even Facebook. Why pay a monthly fee to put 3d fantasy avatars on top of my people? Chat rooms are free.
You are coming from a position of ignorance, and expecting those who know better than you to take your word simply because it is your word. Worse, you expect people who don't know the difference to follow the blind opinions of two ordinary people...because you have a show.
Your arguments have foundation. Even if I concede that there is a monthly fee, it "takes no skill to move up numbers", and "people can chat on IRC too", your logic requires that these things be so innately and incontrovertibly bad as not to require proof or support of any kind.
If paying for a game is bad, then all games suck. To argue that a periodic fee is innately inferior to a one-time fee requires support; you've never offered any. Empirically prove that one-time fees are superior in all cases to periodic fees.
The game does require skill, and we've backed up it countless times. You never listen. How can you possibly listen, when doing so would invalidate your argument? But even if it doesn't require skill, does that mean it's inferior? Watching TV requires no skill, nor does eating an Apple or walking in the park. Yet, these are valid activities. Support your assertion that, in order to be a valid game, a game must require a certain skill. Or, you could just acknowledge the skills that are used in the game, as we have described many times before.
People don't use "free" chat rooms. There is no chat room containing 9 million people...at least 9 million people *I* want to talk to. That argument is completely unsound and worthless. My friends play WoW, so why not play it with them? As a fun activity?
You are elitist, arrogant, and pig-headed, and you always have been. You sully an otherwise good show with this one single point. Why? There are plenty of "bad" games out there for you to ridicule! What's got your goat about WoW?
What's got mine? I play it, that's what. Of course I care.
But what about you? Why the FUCK do you care? Why do you interrupt your own shows, which are not about WoW (and apparently never will be) to insult a game you know dick about and will never play?
What, did WoW hurt you? Did it somehow offend you? Are you jealous of the people who play it? Do you feel like you missed out, and now it's too late to join? Do you resent the period in your life where $15/month was too much to pay for game?
What is your psychological damage?
It's just a game, a game you don't even play. You care as much as I do, and I play the damn thing. What's up with that?
Ah, Pete, why do we keep doing it? What about the last 7 years makes us think it's possible to win an argument with these people?
All the talk of logical fallacies and burden of proof, and it's the same thing as it ever was. It's our fault in the end.
Don't worry, I won't bring this up again. Appealing to their assertion of manliness in the form of never shit-talking has failed, for the umpteenth time. This is their forum, their show, and they'll say what they want.
Which makes me wonder what the point of anyone else participating is.
Back to (or rather away from) the deepest recesses of the internet for me.
Ok, don't bring this up again then. WoW is far from being a good game to play. At best a glorified online community with sword slashing involved. People like it but people like a lot of crap things and the main problem with WoW is that it optimizes all the problems with MMO games and seeks to improve nothing.
Well done, just insult everyone who tries to make a reasonable argument against you. No matter how solid their argument they are just the bad guys; they cant be right. You are arguing a point not to try and find out who is right but to just say you are right. You are incapable of conceding the fact that you play a sub standard game that takes all the worst parts of modern games and makes hopeless fanboys who won't listen to any form of reason.
To conclude: this argument was pointless. At no point did you ever try to understand the opposing point of view. I don't think any further argument is necessary as you are here only to say what you have to say and listen to noone else. I would be intrigued to know of somewhere in this game where skill is a requirement, where you have to do something in a way you can't simply read out of a book or where you can't reach the optimal method of doing something just by spending hours building stats. All you do is say "My game is the greatest" and listen to noone.
I don't think the shit-talk should stop here, because the fact that you continually feel the need to write thousand-word essays in response to single-sentence posts by Scott, and then ask him what his psychological issues are, is frankly hilarious.
But what about you? Why the FUCK do you care? Why do you interrupt your own shows, which are not about WoW (and apparently never will be) to insult a game you know dick about and will never play?
I sorta remember Rym saying something about Wow being the greatest MMORPG ever... (even if he hates all MMORPGs)
I think I could design an MMO that even Scott would play. I've been thinking about it for a while, would anyone want to read a copy of the design if I were to post it up somewhere?
I think I could design an MMO that even Scott would play. I've been thinking about it for a while, would anyone want to read a copy of the design if I were to post it up somewhere?
Actually, Rym and Scott have in the past discussed the perfect MMO that they would make if they had infinite time. It actually sounded pretty good from what I recall; maybe instead of doing a show about WoW, you two should do a show about the perfect MMO.
I'll just sum up my arguments briefly: 1. Much of WoW is crap. 2. Despite that, there is quite a bit in WoW that is fun. 3. The ARENA PvP in WoW is fundamentally identical to Team Fortress 2, and is actually more complex. 4. The puzzles in WoW do involve some degree of lateral thinking. 5. All video games suck, invariably, and are easily reduced to simple and trivial components. The only useful metric for a game's worthiness is how much enjoyment you derive from playing it. 6. Many WoW players need to step out of Azeroth every now and again.
Come on guys, I thought we were smarter than preschool kids. I think people are forgetting that there is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion.
If you're offended by Scryms opinion on WoW, then there must be some truth to it. If you're not offended, it means you don't believe it and/or don't care. There's nothing wrong with a good debate, but when you think the only opinion that is right is yours, then you're an ignorant n00b.
Although I personally enjoy a good MMO, I can understand Scryms opinion. It get's boring after a while, because all you're doing is wasting time leveling and killing shit. That's fun for the first couple hours, but after that I start to get a little bored.
The first MMO I played was in 6th grade. It was called Maplestory. I played it for about a year, before finding that the whole point of the game was to level up. There was no purpose in playing that game for me anymore. I was bored of it, and although I enjoyed looking at the cute chibi characters, I was sick of killing monsters over and over just to level up. It all depends if you enjoy that kind of thing or not. I personally don't. Some people do. There's no right and wrong answer in this.
It's just a game, a game you don't even play. You care as much as I do, and I play the damn thing. What's up with that?
Dude, who the fuck cares what they think. Why are you so emotionally involved in this argument. Seriously, everyone needs to stop pretending that Scott or Rym are some sort of deities and that their opinions are the only ones worth while.
Kenjura, stop it. You are only hurting your own argument and honestly, it's kinda pathetic that you get so emotionally swept up about how someone feels about you playing a game. Who cares about what they think of WoW. Grow some balls and say fuck you to Scrym.
Comments
Omnutia: Yes, I do get enjoyment out of WoW. As I've stated, I largely do arena PvP, which is dynamic and interesting; it's actually more complicated overall than the interactions of TF2. That part is quite fun. The rest of my WoW time is dedicated to other PvP, or doing things to get me better gear or hone my skills to be more competitive in the arena. If I log on, and don't really feel like doing anything, I log off and do something else. It's simple; I play the parts that are fun and skip the parts that aren't.
I'm actually becoming pretty much done with TF2 myself. As I said above, WoW PvP is actually MORE challenging than TF2, largely because there's NOTHING I can do to get better at TF2. Period. In WoW, I can get better gear or try new specs, to get new tricks to use against my opponents and try to get an edge.
You automatically assume that people don't enjoy the game, I say you are wrong. People do enjoy the game. Some people do find moving a character around, selecting attacks and hitting things enjoyable. It may not be true for you, but not everyone.
Also, try to make sure that you have won the debate before sounding like an asshole.
Wow, we haven't even got started on grinding..
WiP hit it exactly, and I'll say it again: you play games because you enjoy them. Yes, it's because you enjoy the underlying mechanics. Invariably, all video games are just a matter of twiddling things, and not much else. Pushing buttons or clicking the mouse, whatever you do, is just some form of twiddling. Counterstrike is just a glorified version of "click on the box," which is really just "push buttons with the right timing." You layer things on top of those fundamentals, add in some arbitrary rules to mix things up, add in some enjoyable aesthetics, and you get a game.
People who enjoy video games, fundamentally, enjoy clicking on things and watching a response. Hell, that goes all the way down to human brain wiring; we're curious, exploratory creatures, who prod things and look at responses. That's how pretty much all of human civilization, ever, was built. We learned how to do things by, effectively, pushing buttons, fiddling with things, and figuring stuff out. The entire concept of "enjoying" those things is probably a necessary component of brain chemistry to encourage us to figure stuff out, just like the orgasm exists to encourage procreation.
In other words, I like clicking on things and pushing buttons because that's what I'm wired to do. If you like Counterstrike, you're pretty much wired the same way, with maybe a little variation here and there from various societal factors. If you want to be reductionist about it, go all the way: We're genetically wired to enjoy video games. There's no conscious choice involved.
Or, rather, game developers recognize and capitalize on human brain wiring. That doesn't mean you still don't enjoy it, though; knowing WHY I enjoy a thing doesn't necessarily change the fact that I DO enjoy it.
The best part of WoW is going on adventures with your friends and getting a reward at the end like experience or some items. WoW stops being fun when you get to the max level and suddenly the only way to get a reward is to do a dungeon that takes several hours a day for several days or compete in a player vs player system for several months. It was because of WoWs crappy endgame that I quit the game.
I'm not a shit talker
If you're talking about 1v1 combat, that's easy; the game is not balanced around 1 on 1, because yes, it's rock/paper/scissors. However, even given that, each class has enough potential variety with the talent options to be able to deal with a lot of situations. You CAN overcome your class counter if you play cleverly; just recently, the best PvP warrior in the game lost a duel to a rogue. A sub-optimally specced rogue, at that, at least as far as dueling a warrior goes.
If you look back, I've been talking very specifically about ARENA PvP, which is a team-based effort. Other kinds of PvP are different; the arena PvP is specifically what I was referencing. I also never claimed it was awesome; I enjoy it, and I contend that it's better than TF2 because each class has access to more tactical options, but that doesn't mean it's awesome. I would say that ARENA PvP in WoW is pretty good, but it could use some tweaking. *coughnerflockscough*
Also, I don't know how you can say that you can beat your counter class in TF2 if you're good enough. Usually, if they're as good at their class as you are at yours, the counter class will own your face every time. As a heavy, if a sniper is as good a sniper as I am a heavy, I CANNOT win at range. I have to go way around and get behind the sniper, at which point I have the advantage. In any game like TF2, you only beat your counter if they suck, or you're really good (which is effectively the same as them sucking). It's no different in WoW, except that each class has MORE versatility with their talent specializations. If you're good enough, or maybe cleverly specced, you can outsmart your counter class.
When you moved away from Rochester, you missed having people around to play games with. When you two moved in together, you had at least the two of you, but you still missed having the opportunity to play games that required more than 2 players. You said things to that effect on this very show, in the years before the "entire" FRC was in the area.
You dismissed an entire genre of games which you might have found very enjoyable at that time in your life. You could have played WoW, or any other, similar game, with other friends from all over the world.
Why the hell do you think I play?
I mean, seriously: do you think I play because I like to push up numbers?
It's about PEOPLE. Not random people on a TF2 server. The same people, every day, whenever you want to play. And it isn't just one game; there are many different activities within the game.
It would be like if everyone you knew played the same several games, all of which could be launched from a single chat client, which you kept open even while playing the games, just in case someone else wanted to say hi.
Or did you not realize that the most important part of WoW, or any MMO, is that little mini-IRC window at the bottom?
It's about PEOPLE.
IT...IS...ABOUT...PEOPLE.
All of your arguments about gameplay are irrelevant.
Any one multiplayer game--I don't care if it's a Portal/Pokemon/Guitar Hero hybrid--cannot compare, because it is just one game.
World of Warcraft is a *world*, in which you'll find many people. You can make friends with them. You can form a guild. You can bring your RL friends into the game.
It's similar to other forms of multiplayer gaming, but it is completely irreplaceable by traditional multiplayer games alone.
And to dismiss it despite this is to make a blanket statement about 9 million people, many of whom are your friends (or at least used to be).
That isn't to say the gameplay is great, or terrible. The fact is, the gameplay is such that I've managed to stay interested in the game for 3 years; no other video game, in my entire life, has come close to that. But it's not the gameplay, it can't be; what game is that good? Seriously?!
It's the PEOPLE.
It's my friends from Rochester who still bug me to get online. How else are we going to communicate? We could chat on Google Talk. Or, we could chat while also playing, without losing anything. Hell, it gives us something to talk about, and brings others into the conversation. Maybe my friends would like to talk to other people as well as me, and outside of IRC (and who uses that now, really?), what are they going to do?
It's also my friends and roommates here in California. Sure, we can get together and play board games or Burning Wheel, or go to the beach or something, and we do! Lots! WoW is just one more thing we can do together. None of them...not a one...wants to play a shooter with me. News flash: only a fraction of gamers like that sort of game. A larger proportion of the wide gamer base seems to like WoW.
It's a game with wide appeal, that has succeeded in attracting many types of gamers. Some are hard-core raiders. Some are hard-core PvPers. Most...the VAST majority...are casual gamers, who either want to solo for a while, or get together with friends and do an instance or two. Of course, they could do both, or neither! They can just stand in town crafting things while shooting the shit about last night's episode of Heroes.
It's about the PEOPLE.
I have played in private WoW servers. I configured my own. After the initial 5 minutes of fun having god-like powers, you realize how empty the game is without the other 20,000 people on the server. And don't give me "well that proves the game sucks". WTF do you do in a TF2 map with no other people?! Sure, single player games don't have that problem. Is WoW bad because it isn't a single-player game, because that argument pretty much says all multi-player games are bad.
It's about the PEOPLE.
People who, time and time again, have invited you to join them, or leave them the fuck alone.
You chose neither. You take every opportunity to bash a game you know dick about. Do you understand how annoying that is? Do you REALLY want me to start giving you shit about Pokemon, Burning Wheel, and every Wii game ever? What the fuck would you say to me if I bashed your favorite games every chance I got? Would you really, honestly say that you didn't mind? You'd be on me like white on rice, and you both fucking know it.
It's about PEOPLE.
NINE MILLION PEOPLE.
Maybe they know what they're talking about.
The burden of proof is on you.
You are coming from a position of ignorance, and expecting those who know better than you to take your word simply because it is your word. Worse, you expect people who don't know the difference to follow the blind opinions of two ordinary people...because you have a show.
Your arguments have foundation. Even if I concede that there is a monthly fee, it "takes no skill to move up numbers", and "people can chat on IRC too", your logic requires that these things be so innately and incontrovertibly bad as not to require proof or support of any kind.
If paying for a game is bad, then all games suck. To argue that a periodic fee is innately inferior to a one-time fee requires support; you've never offered any. Empirically prove that one-time fees are superior in all cases to periodic fees.
The game does require skill, and we've backed up it countless times. You never listen. How can you possibly listen, when doing so would invalidate your argument? But even if it doesn't require skill, does that mean it's inferior? Watching TV requires no skill, nor does eating an Apple or walking in the park. Yet, these are valid activities. Support your assertion that, in order to be a valid game, a game must require a certain skill. Or, you could just acknowledge the skills that are used in the game, as we have described many times before.
People don't use "free" chat rooms. There is no chat room containing 9 million people...at least 9 million people *I* want to talk to. That argument is completely unsound and worthless. My friends play WoW, so why not play it with them? As a fun activity?
You are elitist, arrogant, and pig-headed, and you always have been. You sully an otherwise good show with this one single point. Why? There are plenty of "bad" games out there for you to ridicule! What's got your goat about WoW?
What's got mine? I play it, that's what. Of course I care.
But what about you? Why the FUCK do you care? Why do you interrupt your own shows, which are not about WoW (and apparently never will be) to insult a game you know dick about and will never play?
What, did WoW hurt you? Did it somehow offend you? Are you jealous of the people who play it? Do you feel like you missed out, and now it's too late to join? Do you resent the period in your life where $15/month was too much to pay for game?
What is your psychological damage?
It's just a game, a game you don't even play. You care as much as I do, and I play the damn thing. What's up with that?
Ah, Pete, why do we keep doing it? What about the last 7 years makes us think it's possible to win an argument with these people?
All the talk of logical fallacies and burden of proof, and it's the same thing as it ever was. It's our fault in the end.
Don't worry, I won't bring this up again. Appealing to their assertion of manliness in the form of never shit-talking has failed, for the umpteenth time. This is their forum, their show, and they'll say what they want.
Which makes me wonder what the point of anyone else participating is.
Back to (or rather away from) the deepest recesses of the internet for me.
Well done, just insult everyone who tries to make a reasonable argument against you. No matter how solid their argument they are just the bad guys; they cant be right. You are arguing a point not to try and find out who is right but to just say you are right. You are incapable of conceding the fact that you play a sub standard game that takes all the worst parts of modern games and makes hopeless fanboys who won't listen to any form of reason.
To conclude: this argument was pointless. At no point did you ever try to understand the opposing point of view. I don't think any further argument is necessary as you are here only to say what you have to say and listen to noone else.
I would be intrigued to know of somewhere in this game where skill is a requirement, where you have to do something in a way you can't simply read out of a book or where you can't reach the optimal method of doing something just by spending hours building stats. All you do is say "My game is the greatest" and listen to noone.
Every MMO ever.
I'll just sum up my arguments briefly:
1. Much of WoW is crap.
2. Despite that, there is quite a bit in WoW that is fun.
3. The ARENA PvP in WoW is fundamentally identical to Team Fortress 2, and is actually more complex.
4. The puzzles in WoW do involve some degree of lateral thinking.
5. All video games suck, invariably, and are easily reduced to simple and trivial components. The only useful metric for a game's worthiness is how much enjoyment you derive from playing it.
6. Many WoW players need to step out of Azeroth every now and again.
I think that's about it.
If you're offended by Scryms opinion on WoW, then there must be some truth to it. If you're not offended, it means you don't believe it and/or don't care. There's nothing wrong with a good debate, but when you think the only opinion that is right is yours, then you're an ignorant n00b.
Although I personally enjoy a good MMO, I can understand Scryms opinion. It get's boring after a while, because all you're doing is wasting time leveling and killing shit. That's fun for the first couple hours, but after that I start to get a little bored.
The first MMO I played was in 6th grade. It was called Maplestory. I played it for about a year, before finding that the whole point of the game was to level up. There was no purpose in playing that game for me anymore. I was bored of it, and although I enjoyed looking at the cute chibi characters, I was sick of killing monsters over and over just to level up. It all depends if you enjoy that kind of thing or not. I personally don't. Some people do. There's no right and wrong answer in this.
Kenjura, stop it. You are only hurting your own argument and honestly, it's kinda pathetic that you get so emotionally swept up about how someone feels about you playing a game. Who cares about what they think of WoW. Grow some balls and say fuck you to Scrym.