Well done, just insult everyone who tries to make a reasonable argument against you. No matter how solid their argument they are just the bad guys; they cant be right. You are arguing a point not to try and find out who is right but to just say you are right. You are incapable of conceding the fact that you play a sub standard game that takes all the worst parts of modern games and makes hopeless fanboys who won't listen to any form of reason.
To conclude: this argument was pointless. At no point did you ever try to understand the opposing point of view. I don't think any further argument is necessary as you are here only to say what you have to say and listen to noone else.
What's great about this is that all the things you just said could just as easily be applied to you. Why does it matter SO MUCH to you that WoW is a bad game? Does it keep you up late at night, crying under the covers after you've tried to masturbate the pain away? Does it bother you SO MUCH that out there in the world there are people playing a game that just boils your butt SO MUCH? Everything you said about kenjura is exactly how you've been acting in this thread, but your opinion isn't automatically invalidated because you don't like WoW.
I would be intrigued to know of somewhere in this game where skill is a requirement, where you have to do something in a way you can't simply read out of a book or where you can't reach the optimal method of doing something just by spending hours building stats. All you do is say "My game is the greatest" and listen to noone.
Show me a Team Fortress map or a fighting game where you can't get the optimal strategy by reading a FAQ. You can read Z-Motions and Quarter Circles on GameFAQs all day, but it doesn't make you a good Street Fighter player. Likewise, you can read WoW strats every second of your life and it doesn't suddenly make you an awesome tank. It's beyond me why people think that reading and implementing a stock talent build is at all different from memorizing the canned gatling combos in Guilty Gear. You can know HOW to tank five or six mobs in WoW, doesn't mean you can apply it practically, just like you might never execute that 37 hit combo with Sol Badguy.
I care because people come in here mouthing off about something like they are the be all and end all of gaming knowledge. I get really worked up when people just assume the are right and start arguments when they have already decided the outcome. You keep pointing to how WoW shares its problems with other games but don't say that what I'm saying is wrong.
Dude, who the fuck cares what they think.
My point exactly.
WoW fanboys, grow up, seriously. if it keeps you up at night masturbating the pain away Dave that really has no bearing on the problems of WoW.
I bet twenty bucks kenjura will find a reason to post again . . .
1. Much of WoW is crap.
I don' t have time for something that forces me to "get through" a bunch of crap, even if there's something good beyond said crap, and especially if I can do something with a better good-stuff-to-crap-ratio. I won't watch 20 bad episodes of a show just to get the "five good ones" at the end. If a steak is half-good and half-bad, I'll just eat the good part. If I were forced to eat the bad part just to get at the good part, I'd pay for a better overall steak instead.
2. Despite that, there is quite a bit in WoW that is fun.
I'm sure WoW has some fun aspects, but it requires a substantial time investment that I believe is better spent elsewhere. The opportunity cost of WoW, for someone like myself, is massive, and certainly not worth the return. WoW costs time, my most valuable commodity. An hour spent playing WoW is an hour spent NOT climbing a mountain, an hour NOT reading a novel, an hour NOT making a podcast.
If there's ever anything more enjoyable or more rewarding to do, then anything less so, even if said things are in and of themselves good, is not worth the time. It's simply not good enough to warrant the opportunity cost. I'll never eat a cube steak if a prime rib is available.
WoW isn't bad, it's just cube steak.
3. The ARENA PvP in WoW is fundamentally identical to Team Fortress 2, and is actually more complex.
Team Fortress 2 is pretty weak, and I've already almost entirely lost interest in it. Also, Team Fortress 2 requires practically ZERO time investment beyond the actual game. The ARENA PvP in WoW requires the time investment of the rest of WoW, and therefore has a much higher opportunity cost.
4. The puzzles in WoW do involve some degree of lateral thinking.
There are things that require a greater degree of (lateral) thinking which do not require the substantial time investment to get at them.
5. All video games suck, invariably, and are easily reduced to simple and trivial components. The only useful metric for a game's worthiness is how much enjoyment you derive from playing it.
The same is true of board games. Notice how the vast majority of our expensive German games become worthless after at best a week of play? Notice how most videogame we buy are hated as soon as the novelty wears off?
All games break down to either randomness or perfect information boredom. It's just math. Some games, however, are better designed, and thus break down more slowly, or in an interesting way. Those games are the best of games. I can't enjoy a mediocre game in the face of a better one. I won't play Ra if I have the opportunity to play T&.
Why? I can predict how Ra will go. I understand exactly what it is. I'm done with it. I can't fully predict T&E yet. I don't know what to expect. I don't understand it on a fundamental level. Yet. Once I do, T&E will no longer be a compelling game to me, and will be no better than Ra.
6. Many WoW players need to step out of Azeroth every now and again.
Someone who can afford the opportunity cost of Wow must not have much else going on. ^_~
I'm not the radical anti-WoW-advocate that Scott is. I just find the game medicore and unworthy of any real consideration. It's an MMO. I've been down that road, and I know exactly where it leads. I have no desire to travel in that direction ever again.
If you spent more time reading my post instead of coming up with I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I comebacks, you might've noted that I did say you were wrong about WoW, and addressed those points in kind.
I'm sorry but it was such a stupid thing you said. I mean seriously Dave. I look up to you as somewhat of an internet celebrity (even with the beans on toast issue) but you make some seriously childish comments. I know that's how you are but sheesh. How can you read a book that teaches you to track accurately a moving target? I can read up on what to click and when but in WoW your enemy isn't moving that fast.
What ever anyone says in this thread will be taken out of context by someone else and the argument will never end. As arguments go on the internet.
I'm sorry but it was such a stupid thing you said. I mean seriously Dave. I look up to you as somewhat of an internet celebrity (even with the beans on toast issue) but you make some seriously childish comments. I know that's how you are but sheesh. How can you read a book that teaches you to track accurately a moving target? I can read up on what to click and when but in WoW your enemy isn't moving that fast.
I don't completely understand this line of thought.. Just as someone would need to practice at being better at Healing in WOW one can read up on how to be a sniper in a game, such as where are the best area's on the map or when is the optimial time to take the shot and then practice to get the timing right to track accurately a moving target. Both take practice. One could argue though that there is a point where someone reaches their physical ceiling in an FPS. Then it doesn't have anything to do with developed skill and you find yourself losing just because your hand shakes a bit more then the other person. What fun is that unless your a perfect human when you reach this point and still find yourself dying.
My problem with WoW is that it is designed not for player enjoyment but for corporate enrichment. There is no way to set up your own private server to enjoy the game with friends. I would rather play a multi-player game with a big upfront cost and no monthly cost than the reverse.
As for the flawed game play of Pokemon, yes the best part of the game is the single player portion. Most older players are not in an environment like school where they can meet up with friends and battle or trade.
The best thing added to the Ruby/Sapphire line was the secret base. These allowed you to customize your grind by building bases (with 6 Pokemon) into your game. I think it topped out at 10 bases at one time but it was enough to allow you to endure the grind because each battle could be customized and the bases could be placed in easy to access areas. When I play Pearl to grind up my Pokemon my only option is to find a place where mostly level 50 Pokemon can be found and get about 1K XP per battle. On the older game I could stock bases with level 100 guys and rack up a hell of a lot more points per battle.
I do not enjoy the grind that is in Pokemon at all. What really sucks is the amount of cheaters out there who hack Pokemon and bring impossible Pokemon into a battle.
I would likely enjoy a Pokemon MMO as long as it was not heavy on the grind.
Someone who can afford the opportunity cost of Wow must not have much else going on. ^_~
*insert rant that is not necessary because I know you know people who play wow and are getting their PH.D. and contribute much to society and you used a ^_~*
Yes, the "I have time but no money" vs. "I have money but no time" argument clearly comes into play in regards to WoW. I can plunk down $50 on Metroid Prime 3 and play it at my leisure, getting about 20-30 hours of enjoyment out of it over a long span of time. Because of my shortage of time I may only be able to play the game a few hours a week. This is also why I will not pay to join a video game rental service. I know any game I rent will be in my home for months not weeks or days prior to my completing it.
If I can only play WoW a few hours a week than the cost to enjoyment ratio is simply not there.
My beef with the entire videogame RPG genre is the grind. That's what got me to put down Golden Sun three quarters of the way through the game. Give me puzzles. Give me quests. Don't give me grinding.
My beef with the entire videogame RPG genre is the grind. That's what got me to put down Golden Sun three quarters of the way through the game. Give me puzzles. Give me quests. Don't give me grinding.
Wow, even I like Golden Sun. It's basically grind-free. I mean, sure, the characters level up. Sure, if you wanted to, you could grind up the power levels. However, it isn't necessary. I played through Golden Sun just by holding down the fight button at random encounters. I never ran from a random encounter, but I also never walked around grinding to get extra levels. I spent all my time solving puzzles, talking to people, finding secrets, etc. I never felt like I was grinding, and I never failed to beat a boss because I wasn't high enough level.
I think the Zero Punctuation guy said it best in his Super Paper Mario review about the part of the game where you have to hold the D-pad down while finding something else to amuse yourself with for half an hour.
I think the Zero Punctuation guy said it best in his Super Paper Mario review about the part of the game where you have to hold the D-pad down while finding something else to amuse yourself with for half an hour.
I didn't beat the game, I stopped playing about halfway through, but I don't remember this part.
I think the Zero Punctuation guy said it best in his Super Paper Mario review about the part of the game where you have to hold the D-pad down while finding something else to amuse yourself with for half an hour.
I didn't beat the game, I stopped playing about halfway through, but I don't remember this part.
Something to do with running inside a hamster wheel to earn money. I think he said he grabbed something heavy and laid it on the Wiimote button and did something else for half an hour while the game played itself. This is much like the earlier story about the guy who used wrenches on his DS to grind the happiness up on Pokemon.
It's actually argumentum ad numerum. Ad populum is appealing to a large audience in hopes of gaining its acceptance: "We should do this for the children. You don't want the children to be hurt, do you?"
I was always taught that ad populum was an appeal to popularity: "Everyone else is doing it, so you should too." You're probably correct, though. It's been a while since I've taken a logic class.
I think Eve Online is partway toward being a great MMO. Every now and then I get the urge to play it and I renew my subscription. While it does have plenty of grind-y elements, it is possible to avoid the grind in two ways:
1. Immerse yourself in PVP/Alliance warfare. Unlike certain other games, you can conquer territory and change the layout of the universe. The fact that there's only one server means your achievements are relevant to everyone else in the game, and certain individuals and corps can become famous with their abilities. There's also a decent roleplay community that takes advantage of this, it's not just saying 'forsooth' in chatrooms.
2. Eve is the best online economic game there is. Unlike the dedicated stock market/simulator games, you get consumers wanting goods for different reasons and who have differing market knowledge. In Capitalism II, once you've worked out a winning strategy the game is broken. In Eve the market constantly changes, and if you're smart there is always a new economic strategy to give yourself the edge.
Unfortunately, over time the game company has been including more grinding elements and making some poor decisions. I'll probably resubscribe again sometime but there is still room for someone to build the perfect MMO.
I cant believe you guys are still arguing about this. It simple really, the people who like WoW are the people who have time, while the people who dont have time dont. Even Scrym said they liked MMORPGs back in the days when they had time. Oh, and theres also the people who think the basic gameplay isn't fun but thats just your personal preference. People should stop getting so emo over this topic and end it.
Of all the RPGs i've played, there are only two where I never had to resort to outright grinding: Grandia 2 and Tales of Symphonia. Just don't run away from everything and you'll do fine.
I spose your right. Game's goodness = Enjoyment = Popularity but I still find WoW not just bad to play but also bad for those who continue playing it even when they don't enjoy it any more. No game should make you invest so much time in them that players feel prohibited from stopping due to the amount of time already invested. I still feel that there is something that makes WoW wrong, something about what it does to people. Could just be MMOs in general and I'm focusing on WoW as its the biggest.
[Afterthought] I think another thing is that there is no finale. It feels like it's single player in the whole progression thing but as its multi-player you don't reach the end. You get to the highest level with the best armor and stuff and then what?
Comments
WoW fanboys, grow up, seriously. if it keeps you up at night masturbating the pain away Dave that really has no bearing on the problems of WoW. Each or split among everyone in the thread?
I don' t have time for something that forces me to "get through" a bunch of crap, even if there's something good beyond said crap, and especially if I can do something with a better good-stuff-to-crap-ratio. I won't watch 20 bad episodes of a show just to get the "five good ones" at the end. If a steak is half-good and half-bad, I'll just eat the good part. If I were forced to eat the bad part just to get at the good part, I'd pay for a better overall steak instead.
2. Despite that, there is quite a bit in WoW that is fun.
I'm sure WoW has some fun aspects, but it requires a substantial time investment that I believe is better spent elsewhere. The opportunity cost of WoW, for someone like myself, is massive, and certainly not worth the return. WoW costs time, my most valuable commodity. An hour spent playing WoW is an hour spent NOT climbing a mountain, an hour NOT reading a novel, an hour NOT making a podcast.
If there's ever anything more enjoyable or more rewarding to do, then anything less so, even if said things are in and of themselves good, is not worth the time. It's simply not good enough to warrant the opportunity cost. I'll never eat a cube steak if a prime rib is available.
WoW isn't bad, it's just cube steak.
3. The ARENA PvP in WoW is fundamentally identical to Team Fortress 2, and is actually more complex.
Team Fortress 2 is pretty weak, and I've already almost entirely lost interest in it. Also, Team Fortress 2 requires practically ZERO time investment beyond the actual game. The ARENA PvP in WoW requires the time investment of the rest of WoW, and therefore has a much higher opportunity cost.
4. The puzzles in WoW do involve some degree of lateral thinking.
There are things that require a greater degree of (lateral) thinking which do not require the substantial time investment to get at them.
5. All video games suck, invariably, and are easily reduced to simple and trivial components. The only useful metric for a game's worthiness is how much enjoyment you derive from playing it.
The same is true of board games. Notice how the vast majority of our expensive German games become worthless after at best a week of play? Notice how most videogame we buy are hated as soon as the novelty wears off?
All games break down to either randomness or perfect information boredom. It's just math. Some games, however, are better designed, and thus break down more slowly, or in an interesting way. Those games are the best of games. I can't enjoy a mediocre game in the face of a better one. I won't play Ra if I have the opportunity to play T&.
Why? I can predict how Ra will go. I understand exactly what it is. I'm done with it. I can't fully predict T&E yet. I don't know what to expect. I don't understand it on a fundamental level. Yet. Once I do, T&E will no longer be a compelling game to me, and will be no better than Ra.
6. Many WoW players need to step out of Azeroth every now and again.
Someone who can afford the opportunity cost of Wow must not have much else going on. ^_~
I'm not the radical anti-WoW-advocate that Scott is. I just find the game medicore and unworthy of any real consideration. It's an MMO. I've been down that road, and I know exactly where it leads. I have no desire to travel in that direction ever again.
How can you read a book that teaches you to track accurately a moving target? I can read up on what to click and when but in WoW your enemy isn't moving that fast.
What ever anyone says in this thread will be taken out of context by someone else and the argument will never end. As arguments go on the internet.
As for the flawed game play of Pokemon, yes the best part of the game is the single player portion. Most older players are not in an environment like school where they can meet up with friends and battle or trade.
The best thing added to the Ruby/Sapphire line was the secret base. These allowed you to customize your grind by building bases (with 6 Pokemon) into your game. I think it topped out at 10 bases at one time but it was enough to allow you to endure the grind because each battle could be customized and the bases could be placed in easy to access areas. When I play Pearl to grind up my Pokemon my only option is to find a place where mostly level 50 Pokemon can be found and get about 1K XP per battle. On the older game I could stock bases with level 100 guys and rack up a hell of a lot more points per battle.
I do not enjoy the grind that is in Pokemon at all. What really sucks is the amount of cheaters out there who hack Pokemon and bring impossible Pokemon into a battle.
I would likely enjoy a Pokemon MMO as long as it was not heavy on the grind.
If I can only play WoW a few hours a week than the cost to enjoyment ratio is simply not there.
I am tired of this thread and it's getting stupid..
1. Immerse yourself in PVP/Alliance warfare. Unlike certain other games, you can conquer territory and change the layout of the universe. The fact that there's only one server means your achievements are relevant to everyone else in the game, and certain individuals and corps can become famous with their abilities. There's also a decent roleplay community that takes advantage of this, it's not just saying 'forsooth' in chatrooms.
2. Eve is the best online economic game there is. Unlike the dedicated stock market/simulator games, you get consumers wanting goods for different reasons and who have differing market knowledge. In Capitalism II, once you've worked out a winning strategy the game is broken. In Eve the market constantly changes, and if you're smart there is always a new economic strategy to give yourself the edge.
Unfortunately, over time the game company has been including more grinding elements and making some poor decisions. I'll probably resubscribe again sometime but there is still room for someone to build the perfect MMO.
I still feel that there is something that makes WoW wrong, something about what it does to people. Could just be MMOs in general and I'm focusing on WoW as its the biggest.
[Afterthought] I think another thing is that there is no finale. It feels like it's single player in the whole progression thing but as its multi-player you don't reach the end. You get to the highest level with the best armor and stuff and then what?