Moe done right is not completely evil, there are examples such as Azumanga Daioh. I guess it become evil when marketing comes to the equation. Kujibiki Unbalance comes to mind along with the horrible show in which little girls want to sleep with their primary school teacher
Like I said, it's not like I've heard a lot of him but I can give him credit for that. I still dislike his attitude amongst the other reasons I stated.
I just find it funny that you apparently listen to GeekNights and complain about Daryl being Self-righteous.
I don't know in what respect Azumanga Diaoh can be categorized as "moe" at all. Although almost the complete cast is female, all of them are portrayed as independent and in no need of protection. There is no sexualization or in-your-face-cuteness and in fact the show almost turns the concept a bit on its head with the semi-perverted Kimura.
Like I said, it's not like I've heard a lot of him but I can give him credit for that. I still dislike his attitude amongst the other reasons I stated.
I just find it funny that you apparently listen to GeekNights and complain about Daryl being Self-righteous.
It's more a question of content. I happen to like hearing about things from after 1995 (more than once in a while.)
Actually, it's hard to believe that Azumanga Daioh isn't Moe, though it's probably a good example of Moe done RIGHT.
I think it's harder to believe it's seinen. I understand why though, but when I was told that it blew my mind.
Kiyohiko Azuma's works are awesome. It is obvious upon examination of his works that the entertainment value does not reside in the few moe elements they may be present. They are primarily seinen comedies, and they do have a targeted audience of "old guys". His works are published in the Dengeki Daioh anthology which contains other seinen manga with much stronger moe elements. Despite this, both Azmuanga Daioh and Yotsuba&! appeal to all ages and genders with good reason.
The problem with moe is thus. Take two people. One person watches a show and enjoys it because it is funny and lighthearted. It helps them to laugh and relax. Someone else watches the same show, and whether they enjoy the other parts of the show or not, they are having sexual, or semi-sexual, fantasies about the underage characters. These people do exist, they are scary, and they are likely pedophiles. As disturbing as it may be to think about it, there is Azumanga Daioh porn, and there are people fapping to it. It is right to look down on those people, and we do.
Now look at something like Lucky Star. It is possible to enjoy Lucky Star on many levels. One one level, it can be a great comedy for anime fans. On another level, it can be a fap-fest for a scary otaku. It is obvious that many such moe elements were put into the work on purpose by the creators specifically to appeal to that demographic. This detracts from the redeemable aspects of the show, and it will get the show negative marks from any decent human being.
We look to Japan again and we see other works like Nymphet. There is absolutely no debate. Anyone with half a brain can examine this work of art and immediately come to only one conclusion. The only entertainment value within this work is its potential to arouse sick otaku pedophiles. The work was clearly created with this in mind, it simply can not be interpreted any other way. I haven't ever read a page of Nymphet, but from all the information I have seen, I can guarantee it has effectively no redeemable qualities whatsoever. I am effectively a free expression absolutist, and I think such works do have a right to be published, distributed and read. However, I despise and disrespect the creators, the publishers, the readers, and anyone else who has a hand in such trash.
What we are seeing now are many new anime and manga that may not be as bad as Nymphet, but they contain many strong moe elements. They are effectively half nymphet, half something else. These same scary people are watching these shows and reading these manga. They are enjoying them for the same reasons they enjoy something like Nymphet.
It might be possible for a normal person to get entertainment from the half of these shows that are not moe, but I have not seen many people doing so. Besides, why should they waste their time on a show that is half comedy half twisted perversion? There are plenty of better shows that are total comedy with far fewer perverse elements.
What I do see are people carrying Chobits in one hand saying they like it for the comedy while having a copy of Nymphet in their backpack. Perverts use the fact that these shows do contain non-moe elements as an excuse to explain how they are not pedophiles. Yeah, tell me another one genius. Let me guess, you read Penthouse, Maxim and Playboy for the articles? The only one you are fooling is yourself.
Animation studios and manga publishers are producing moe titles at an increasing rate. People who enjoy these shows for moe reasons are coming out more and more. These people are, and should be, looked down upon. Is it really that hard to understand why anime and manga fans, who are not sick perverts and who despise those who are, would not approve of all these titles with strong moe elements?
We look to Japan again and we see other works likeNymphet.
KODOMO NO JIKAN = NYMPHET!?!? . . . Genjo-subs is subbing that, and has an entire website style for it. It's crap, the style. Never watched the anime, now I know there's one less horrible pedo anime/manga in the world, only because two I thought were seperate are one. But didn't Rym want to read Nymphet?
I totally agree with you Scott. A personal example, Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu. I really like the series, I also really hate Mikuru. I think the majority of what comes out of her mouth are eeps out of panic and fear for Haruhi is harassing her for fan service reasons. Great. -__- Iirc Haruhi introduces her to the club as "A loli with big breasts!" and she contributes almost nothing to the anime save for filling in the (spoiler)time traveller spot.(/spoiler) The images I've seen from Chobits are also meh, okay naive/ignorant android who has no idea what the hell panties are. At least one can tell the perverts from the normal people judging from their avatars.
I thought of Mikuru as more of a parody of the whole lolita fetish thing, but I see where you're coming from, Nineless. Also, what Scott said. There are too many all good shows to waste your time with a half good, half pedophile crap show.
As much of a Haruhi fan I am even I have to admit. Mikuru is a useless character just for comic relief and fanservice.
Scott, you said everything I think about moe only better!
I tried moe several times. Lucky Star was among those but it seems more a like a AzuDai rip off that's not as funny or funny at all. The character designs creep me out being that they are high schoolers but look like elementary schoolers. I do like the opening theme, dance and Konata's attitude oddly enough. I wish those aspects was in another anime so I could enjoy them fully.
I'd hate to get into the middle of this, but you're completely dodging most of Scott's argument using ad hominems.
I wonder what complex you must have to be constantly paranoid of this elusive mass of "scary" people. ... I can picture you red-faced pounding away at your keyboard and I'm heartily laughing as I type this. ... Of course, this is hilariously untrue and starting to read like a Jack Chick tract.
You're also writing off his argument as invalid because he didn't use the specific terms of your choosing.
However, it seems you've actually thinking "lolicon" when you say "moe" and most of your post is a matter for a different thread.
You're using the idea that since this argument is tangential you shouldn't have to answer him. Refute his ideas, don't dance around them.
I'd hate to get into the middle of this, but you're completely dodging most of Scott's argument using ad hominems.
Really? Where? Even if I poke some fun, it isn't without some logical criticism of a facuet of his argument following soon after.
You're also writing off his argument as invalid because he didn't use the specific terms of your choosing.
I pointed out that we were, in actuality, talking about two completely different things. One germane to the previous discussion and one that's a whole seperate issue.
You're free to save face however you like, but your criticisms of my reply are still invalid.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't say why it's invalid. If you don't back it up it's just as baseless as you saw Scott's "pedophile" assumption. You're not saying why it's ok and why these people aren't creepy. Like I said before, you're dancing around answering those questions. I'm not here to argue either way on the issue, but I want to see quality discussion.
You're free to save face however you like, but your criticisms of my reply are still invalid.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't saywhyit's invalid. If you don't back it up it's just as baseless as you saw Scott's "pedophile" assumption. You're not sayingwhyit's ok andwhythese people aren't creepy. Like I said before, you're dancing around answering those questions. I'm not here to argue either way on the issue, but I want to see quality discussion.
While you aren't being honest in my opinion, I'm in the process of restating my argument more concisely so please be patient.
I have come to the conclusion that Reimu is indeed a scary pedophile. I base this on the fact that he says there is nothing wrong with Azumanga Daioh porn. Moe, lolicon, whatever. It's all the same. It's just more of those excuses sick people make so they are not forced to face the facts that they are sick people.
This is the first time we've had someone in the forum who can actually write grammatically correct and relatively well-written posts, but has serious other issues. It is up to the community if banning should occur or not. We will do as you say.
The whole pedophilia thing is what has caused me to hate practically every character in an anime that looks younger than they are. I want to watch Lucky Star, but this hatred of that specific type of character design is what is keeping me from watching it. I want to get over this strange hatred but I have no idea how to when the Internet is filled with lolicon porn of every possible loli-styled character.
Oh, and on the subject of Reimu, I would give him another chance. He is new to the forums and I think he can change for the better. I would give him, at the most, a month to change before dropping the ban hammer on him.
I have come to the conclusion that Reimu is indeed a scary pedophile. I base this on the fact that he says there is nothing wrong with Azumanga Daioh porn. Moe, lolicon, whatever. It's all the same. It's just more of those excuses sick people make so they are not forced to face the facts that they are sick people.
This is the first time we've had someone in the forum who can actually write grammatically correct and relatively well-written posts, but has serious other issues. It is up to the community if banning should occur or not. We will do as you say.
You are overreacting. All he is trying to do is defend shows that are, in his opinion, falsely labeled as bad because of a moe element. Moe content does NOT make a show bad, other failures of the show make it bad. He wants you(and Daryl Surat), to realize this and stop making generalizations about them.
There is nothing wrong with Azumanga Daioh porn. You're just against hentai in general, and more so against Azumanga hentai because it's taking something that you like and using it to make something you find offensive.
I don't think he deserves to be banned, since he contributes to other discussions throughout the forum.
If you would like me to elaborate on what I said, please ask.
In fact, even if you don't, I feel I should reorganize my thoughts to make my point more concise:
To begin with, moe is term that originally refers to a fetish or love for a character in anime (thanks Wikipedia.) When discussing anime, it's also used to refer to aspects of a show that cater to those fetishes. That's what we've been discussing all along and it originally started when I brought up Daryl Surat's distaste for shows that appeal to fans this way. It is my point of that view that he makes too big a deal out of this issue.
I feel that he has an overtly negative attitude when approaching anime and it causes him to be unable to appreciate more recent quality anime that come his way. I also took issue with Scott's question of "Why is it worth watching a show that is "half-good?"" I feel that certain elements of a show usually overshadow others and that even if you dislike some things, the payoff can be worth greatly your time (even more so than a show that's supposedly "all-good") and you shouldn't be too dismissive of anime. Of course, as I've said before, you can use the advice you peers to determine whether you feel it is worth it.
This much we've all gone over to this point.
Now, Scott, brings up lolicon, which while a kind of moe (as the term encompasses a lot of things) is a really a whole different beast from the others, due to the fact it concerns children, or rather, the depiction of children.
I critiqued the examples of Lucky Star and Chobits because they aren't shows that cater to lolicons. Lucky Star is a show centered on inside jokes and minimal in sexual content (even then, it's the butt of jokes.) Chobits is the archetypical ecchi manga we've seen since shows like Love Hina. Chii is not a child nor is she even a human being in the first place.
On the issue of Kodomo no Jikan, I bring up the point that it pales in comparison to has already been done before. This leads into my main criticism of his argument. In the end, Scott is doing nothing more than trying to push a specific social agenda. He feels that pedophiles should be looked down upon and thus feels threatened by things he feels will lead to their acceptance. KnJ does push the envelope of what is acceptable in a commercially published manga and thus it becomes a target. My view is that that I have no problem with people who enjoy this fantasy when they do it in a way that does not harm anyone and I question whether it can be established those people's fantasies translate into the real world.
I'm happy to discuss both issues, but let's be careful to keep them separate to avoid confusion.
I have come to the conclusion that Reimu is indeed a scary pedophile. I base this on the fact that he says there is nothing wrong with Azumanga Daioh porn. Moe, lolicon, whatever. It's all the same. It's just more of those excuses sick people make so they are not forced to face the facts that they are sick people.
Comments
The problem with moe is thus. Take two people. One person watches a show and enjoys it because it is funny and lighthearted. It helps them to laugh and relax. Someone else watches the same show, and whether they enjoy the other parts of the show or not, they are having sexual, or semi-sexual, fantasies about the underage characters. These people do exist, they are scary, and they are likely pedophiles. As disturbing as it may be to think about it, there is Azumanga Daioh porn, and there are people fapping to it. It is right to look down on those people, and we do.
Now look at something like Lucky Star. It is possible to enjoy Lucky Star on many levels. One one level, it can be a great comedy for anime fans. On another level, it can be a fap-fest for a scary otaku. It is obvious that many such moe elements were put into the work on purpose by the creators specifically to appeal to that demographic. This detracts from the redeemable aspects of the show, and it will get the show negative marks from any decent human being.
We look to Japan again and we see other works like Nymphet. There is absolutely no debate. Anyone with half a brain can examine this work of art and immediately come to only one conclusion. The only entertainment value within this work is its potential to arouse sick otaku pedophiles. The work was clearly created with this in mind, it simply can not be interpreted any other way. I haven't ever read a page of Nymphet, but from all the information I have seen, I can guarantee it has effectively no redeemable qualities whatsoever. I am effectively a free expression absolutist, and I think such works do have a right to be published, distributed and read. However, I despise and disrespect the creators, the publishers, the readers, and anyone else who has a hand in such trash.
What we are seeing now are many new anime and manga that may not be as bad as Nymphet, but they contain many strong moe elements. They are effectively half nymphet, half something else. These same scary people are watching these shows and reading these manga. They are enjoying them for the same reasons they enjoy something like Nymphet.
It might be possible for a normal person to get entertainment from the half of these shows that are not moe, but I have not seen many people doing so. Besides, why should they waste their time on a show that is half comedy half twisted perversion? There are plenty of better shows that are total comedy with far fewer perverse elements.
What I do see are people carrying Chobits in one hand saying they like it for the comedy while having a copy of Nymphet in their backpack. Perverts use the fact that these shows do contain non-moe elements as an excuse to explain how they are not pedophiles. Yeah, tell me another one genius. Let me guess, you read Penthouse, Maxim and Playboy for the articles? The only one you are fooling is yourself.
Animation studios and manga publishers are producing moe titles at an increasing rate. People who enjoy these shows for moe reasons are coming out more and more. These people are, and should be, looked down upon. Is it really that hard to understand why anime and manga fans, who are not sick perverts and who despise those who are, would not approve of all these titles with strong moe elements?
I totally agree with you Scott. A personal example, Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu. I really like the series, I also really hate Mikuru. I think the majority of what comes out of her mouth are eeps out of panic and fear for Haruhi is harassing her for fan service reasons. Great. -__- Iirc Haruhi introduces her to the club as "A loli with big breasts!" and she contributes almost nothing to the anime save for filling in the (spoiler)time traveller spot.(/spoiler) The images I've seen from Chobits are also meh, okay naive/ignorant android who has no idea what the hell panties are. At least one can tell the perverts from the normal people judging from their avatars.
Scott, you said everything I think about moe only better!
I tried moe several times. Lucky Star was among those but it seems more a like a AzuDai rip off that's not as funny or funny at all. The character designs creep me out being that they are high schoolers but look like elementary schoolers. I do like the opening theme, dance and Konata's attitude oddly enough. I wish those aspects was in another anime so I could enjoy them fully.
This is the first time we've had someone in the forum who can actually write grammatically correct and relatively well-written posts, but has serious other issues. It is up to the community if banning should occur or not. We will do as you say.
Oh, and on the subject of Reimu, I would give him another chance. He is new to the forums and I think he can change for the better. I would give him, at the most, a month to change before dropping the ban hammer on him.
There is nothing wrong with Azumanga Daioh porn. You're just against hentai in general, and more so against Azumanga hentai because it's taking something that you like and using it to make something you find offensive. Agreed.
To begin with, moe is term that originally refers to a fetish or love for a character in anime (thanks Wikipedia.) When discussing anime, it's also used to refer to aspects of a show that cater to those fetishes. That's what we've been discussing all along and it originally started when I brought up Daryl Surat's distaste for shows that appeal to fans this way. It is my point of that view that he makes too big a deal out of this issue.
I feel that he has an overtly negative attitude when approaching anime and it causes him to be unable to appreciate more recent quality anime that come his way. I also took issue with Scott's question of "Why is it worth watching a show that is "half-good?"" I feel that certain elements of a show usually overshadow others and that even if you dislike some things, the payoff can be worth greatly your time (even more so than a show that's supposedly "all-good") and you shouldn't be too dismissive of anime. Of course, as I've said before, you can use the advice you peers to determine whether you feel it is worth it.
This much we've all gone over to this point.
Now, Scott, brings up lolicon, which while a kind of moe (as the term encompasses a lot of things) is a really a whole different beast from the others, due to the fact it concerns children, or rather, the depiction of children.
I critiqued the examples of Lucky Star and Chobits because they aren't shows that cater to lolicons. Lucky Star is a show centered on inside jokes and minimal in sexual content (even then, it's the butt of jokes.) Chobits is the archetypical ecchi manga we've seen since shows like Love Hina. Chii is not a child nor is she even a human being in the first place.
On the issue of Kodomo no Jikan, I bring up the point that it pales in comparison to has already been done before. This leads into my main criticism of his argument. In the end, Scott is doing nothing more than trying to push a specific social agenda. He feels that pedophiles should be looked down upon and thus feels threatened by things he feels will lead to their acceptance. KnJ does push the envelope of what is acceptable in a commercially published manga and thus it becomes a target. My view is that that I have no problem with people who enjoy this fantasy when they do it in a way that does not harm anyone and I question whether it can be established those people's fantasies translate into the real world.
I'm happy to discuss both issues, but let's be careful to keep them separate to avoid confusion.