Are there things I wish Obama would do better sure, enough that I'd primary him to get him more to my side, No way. You guys are freaking crazy and politically Naive. Can't wait till Bush 3.0.
Are there things I wish Obama would do better sure, enough that I'd primary him to get him more to my side, No way. You guys are freaking crazy and politically Naive. Can't wait till Bush 3.0.
This is why American politics has been the status quo recently.
The point that I am directed to is: We gave Obama a chance because he inspired confidence and optimism as a candidate, now we feel like selecting a republican is not a valid option that will make anything better, so why do we have to be left with only the choice between a failed inspirational leader and a crazy republican? Lack of real choice is quite possibly the MOST frustrating aspect of our current political system.
If we really had a choice in these situations I think it would force those in office to act better because they stand a realistic chance of not being selected to return, rather than simply having to avoid making decisions and saying things that will get the other party selected (who are really just a slightly different shade of grey).
The point that I am directed to is: We gave Obama a chance because he inspired confidence and optimism as a candidate, now we feel like selecting a republican is not a valid option that will make anything better, so why do we have to be left with only the choice between a failed inspirational leader and a crazy republican? Lack of real choice is quite possibly the MOST frustrating aspect of our current political system.
If we really had a choice in these situations I think it would force those in office to act better because they stand a realistic chance of not being selected to return, rather than simply having to avoid making decisions and saying things that will get the other party selected (who are really just a slightly different shade of grey).
I don't disagree with some of that, though the thought that we had to turn the world black and white instead of shades of gray offends my logical mind :-p (It's what I hate most about republicans/conservative narratives theses days) I actually highly recommend the comment section on that article, people arguing for and against are all very nicely covering the topic. I thought two comments in critique of the article held a lot of merit.
"To those here who feel disappointed that Obama has not united this nation, you overlook the ubiquitous, relentless forces of global mass communication that have thrived on creating disinformation, fear, and uncertainty at the expense of focusing on the bigger message from the White House. My recollection from his inauguration speech was that – finally – we had a decent, thoughtful, intelligent person in the White House whose goals were to find common ground with on another and to move forward. But mass media has been too powerful.
Further, attempts by Obama to advance his message were met with criticism that he was arrogant and too infatuated with the sound of his own voice. History will note that this president was drowned in ignorant ambivalence by swaths of fearful, misinformed (and somewhat racist) critics who somehow expected one man to be both healer and yet autocratically, single-handedly change the entrenched right-wing extremist elements in this nation whose kung-fu grip on waging war and deregulation could not be undone in a matter of a few years. Well, it could not have happened in this age, and I'm not surprised.
If anything, I am sympathetic to Obama's dilemma: where he cannot move in any direction without being attacked by millions. This is not what I call a presidency – it's more like being caged animal. I don't suppose McCain would have faired much differently, had he won.
The sad thing is that we have come to learn that extremists, in a democracy like ours, can hold such strong influence that our collective voices cannot be part of the legislative conversation. That is what I hoped from this presidency, but it will not come to pass. As soon as the filibuster is eliminated, we might actually see some political movement in this country.
I will be sure to remind my children that the age of the early 00s was a sickeningly sad part of our history, where human decency and fraternity were lost in tribal warfare. McLuhan was right."
and "I myself am sick to death of these progressive anthems wishing the President had been someone other than he is. No one other than Obama could have gotten elected. If progressives want Martin Luther King or FDR as their president, they're going to have to elect him. In political reality (as opposed to progressive fantasy), the president has to be able to win Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, and possibly Virginia and North Carolina. These are places where people don't perceive the great injustices of our time through the progressive political lens. I for one am grateful to have a President who quietly and directly says what he thinks without imagining himself to be glorified as some kind of hero of the left. In this political culture such a hero would accomplish nothing except the kind of catharsis one experiences when screaming at people with whom one disagrees. That kind of pleasure is short lived and immediately regretted."
If we really had a choice in these situations I think it would force those in office to act better because they stand a realistic chance of not being selected to return, rather than simply having to avoid making decisions and saying things that will get the other party selected (who are really just a slightly different shade of gray).
I don't disagree with some of that, though the thought that we had to turn the world black and white instead of shades of gray offends my logical mind :-p (It's what I hate most about republicans/conservative narratives theses days)
When I bemoan political shades of gray, I do not mean to imply that I would prefer black and white. I agree that it is not that simple and not that obvious. Instead what I would prefer is shades of color, the entire spectrum! I chose gray simply because it is so boring and samey compared to reds, yellows, greens, blues, etc...
I was just reading an article in the Economist that was talking about Russia and Germany's economic relations and how they were growing because of Obama's reset with Russia. It also noted that Russia and Germany had a small window of opportunity to exploit these high times due to the likely hood of a hawkish Republican taking the presidency next year. So I guess to the outside world, America looks like it's losing the battle against the rightwing fundamentalists.
I guess to the outside world, America looks like it's losing the battle against the rightwing fundamentalists.
It is. The problem is that good, prudent, reasonable people like Cremlian and Obama won't ever be able to fully realize that other people are not always good, prudent, and reasonable. They'll always say things like, "We don't have to worry about Mr. X. He's a moderate because he changed his mind that onetime." or "I'm sure we can negotiate with President Bachmann and the Tea Party Congress. They're just as reasonable as us and are motivated by the same concerns that motivate us. Right?" While they're rationalizing and wringing their hands, the right wing will take over.
I can only think of one right wing movement that failed to gain enough wide-spread support to topple its government, the Oswald Mosley unpleasantness in the 30s. I think the only reason Mosley failed was that he was upperclass and spent too much time going to upperclass parties and trying to win support from the upperclass, who had no interest in changing things.
But seriously, is there anyone here who doesn't foresee a fundamentalist victory in America? I don't think I'm being paranoid when I say that we'll probably see it in our lifetimes. It might not come as an immediate coup. It might be one tea-party win here, a state banning evolution teaching there, and eventually we'll be living in JesusLand.
Don't tell me that the internet kids will do anything to prevent it, either. They'll be too busy playing Gears of Kingdom Hearts FinalFantasy VIII on their JesusStations.
So I guess to the outside world, America looks like it's losing the battle against the rightwing fundamentalists.
Yep.
I think it's inevitable. Rightwing movements always win, especially in harsh economic times. The only question is when their victory will be complete, how unpleasant it will be, and how long their reign will last.
I guess another question could be how long an American citizen can reasonably stay before emigrating.
It is. The problem is that good, prudent, reasonable people like Cremlian and Obama won't ever be able to fully realize that other people are not always good, prudent, and reasonable. They'll always say things like, "We don't have to worry about Mr. X. He's a moderate because he changed his mind that onetime." or "I'm sure we can negotiate with President Bachmann and the Tea Party Congress. They're just as reasonable as us and are motivated by the same concerns that motivate us. Right?" While they're rationalizing and wringing their hands, the right wing will take over.
I can only think of one right wing movement that failed to gain enough wide-spread support to topple its government, the Oswald Mosley unpleasantness in the 30s. I think the only reason Mosley failed was that he was upperclass and spent too much time going to upperclass parties and trying to win support from the upperclass, who had no interest in changing things.
Wow, you have such a short and superficial grasp on political history. How can you say that. Right wing movements in the US have a long history of getting real big quickly and then burning themselves out. Mccarthyism is another example of a failed Right wing movement. Clearly the US has never moved slowly to the left, we clearly have slavery, separate but equal treatment, women can't vote, abortion, safety nets all in the last century or so... If anything we learn from history in the US is the long and grueling way that liberal especially social policy slowly pushing out the flawed traditional views.
Rightwing movements always win, especially in harsh economic times.
Dude I totally remember reading about how the Nazi movement in the 30's took over because of the depression and we totally went completely right wing. The Neoliberal Deal totally helped us get out of the depression and I totally remember the Hard working society a few decades later totally changing our country so "I've got mine screw you" became the mantra for generations. Also it was really cool how republicans dominated congress for almost 40 years until for a few years around 1994 those commies got in for a little bit. When they limited voting to White male land owners I was pretty happy because I can vote but Rym and Scott can't. Which means my vote really mattered.
You guys are so panicked and fragile, the US has gone through bad times before and it will again. We'll get through it but not by whiners and people saying "I wonder when I should get out". If you care stop fucking posting in forums and get out there and protest or help someone run for office or do something to change things. The right wing is gaining control because you whiners sat at home instead of voting in 2010. Learn from your mistakes.
The Right wing has over played their hand in the last few months, even people like my dad are catching on that something isn't right and isn't able to blame it completely on Obama. The way to winning is not ideological purity don't make the short sighted mistake the tea party is making with the republicans.
Cremlian, I'm kind of disappointed you were so harsh with me when I've been trying to be so kind to you. I have a superficial understanding of history? Really? I have a degree in history. I also have a JD, which is, for all intents and purposes, tantamount to a grad degree in US history. I'll stack my knowledge and understanding of history against yours any day. I was not nearly as harsh about your superficial, useless definition of "moderate" that even you admitted was overbroad.
Do you call McCarthyism a movement? It was a one-off witch hunt and scheme for a personal power grab that would also wreak revenge on specific, perceived enemies, not an actual movement with the specific goal of getting a specific slate of people elected and specific policies passed. But if you want to talk about that era, yes,the republicans were very successful at killing Truman's Fair Deal policies and weakening the New Deal under Eisenhower. All the other advances you talked about are currently under attack and some have been seriously weekend over the years.
I posit the only reason the US didn't have a far right movement during the 30s was lack of a charismatic leader. Huey Long might have fit the bill, but he was too concerned about his own enrichment to worry about such things. As long as we're on that subject, however, care to comment about the wide popularity and influence of the KKK during the 20s and 30s?
As far as your argument that we shouldn't fear a "return to traditional values", the tea-types think of us as the establishment. They think they are working for revolutionary, new ideals. You don't win your argument by playing the "old" card.
Finally, don't presume to call me a "whiner" who sat at home during the 2010 elections. You have no idea what monetary contributions I made, the volunteer work I did, or the work I did on election day.
If anyone is superficial here, it's you. It's your type of "it can never happen here" attitude that will allow fundamentalist victory.
I guess another question could be how long an American citizen can reasonably stay before emigrating.
Depends on the country, but usually anywhere from 2 to 4 years.
Yes, but that's not quite what I mean. What I mean is, how long can an American citizen comfortably stay here before seriously making plans to bail? There's going to be relatively safe times, like now, when travel is still easy, but I truly think that if the fundies really win, travel will be restricted more and more until we get to the point where you actually can't get out.
I'm sorry Joe, I read into your comment as more condescending tone then you may have wanted as you probably took my light heart and attempt to be funny and hyperbolic with my retort more serious then you would expect. (such is the way of forum debate) I don't have the "it can never happen here" attitude, but I know what you and Andrew and others have been preaching of late such as having primary challenges for incumbent democrats to drive them further to the left is flawed. Something that will ultimately doom them especially in this current climate. Ultimately I think the more united the left/democrat side is the better as the republican party will fracture under the stress of it's ideological purity. Sure some damage will happen but you have to let your opponent over reach and then strike back. We are a nation of revolutions and counter revolutions. Every time we make two strides forward we tend to move back one step. Don't underestimate each foot we gain though.
\\It is funny that many of the hippies of the 60's are now arch conservatives of the 00's.... You'd think our drug policy would have liberalized by now.
I don't have the "it can never happen here" attitude, but I know what you and Andrew and others have been preaching of late such as having primary challenges for incumbent democrats to drive them further to the left is flawed. Something that will ultimately doom them especially in this current climate. Ultimately I think the more united the left/democrat side is the better as the republican party will fracture under the stress of it's ideological purity. Sure some damage will happen but you have to let your opponent over reach and then strike back. We are a nation of revolutions and counter revolutions. Every time we make two strides forward we tend to move back one step. Don't underestimate each foot we gain though.
I don't care about the Democratic party (nor do I care about the Republicans). This isn't about which team wins and which team loses. I would much prefer a viable third party, but it won't happen. It's not about making Obama go further left, it's about making him fight for the platform he was elected on. It's the system that's broken. We have more fundamental issues with our government than just left/right.
I don't care about the Democratic party (nor do I care about the Republicans). This isn't about which team wins and which team loses. I would much prefer a viable third party, but it won't happen. It's not about making Obama go further left, it's about making him fight for the platform he was elected on. It's the system that's broken. We have more fundamental issues with our government than just left/right.
Yes, but there is one side that is exploiting those problems as well as driving the country towards policies that are damaging.
Be careful using this term, Neoliberalism is not Liberal politics in the US nor is it Liberal Social programs. It's confusing but Neoliberalism is the economic philosophy of Neo-Conservatives. It stands for deregulation and it's a resurgent philosophy based on Classical Liberalism that was endorsed by the robber barons of the 1800's.
Be careful using this term, Neoliberalism is not Liberal politics in the US nor is it Liberal Social programs. It's confusing but Neoliberalism is the economic philosophy of Neo-Conservatives. It stands for deregulation and it's a resurgent philosophy based on Classical Liberalism that was endorsed by the robber barons of the 1800's.
The Neoliberal Deal totally helped us get out of the depression and I totally remember the Hard working society a few decades later totally changing our country so "I've got mine screw you" became the mantra for generations.
Your statement seems to indicate that you are talking about the New Deal. Also McCarthy-ism had a dramatic effect on US Politics that is still with us today. It pushed the left out, the center to the left, and the then the ultra-right to the right. This process has been refining itself for the past 60 years.
Comments
I thought this was a interesting take on our current situation from a guy I respect greatly.
We've Downgraded ourselves
Are there things I wish Obama would do better sure, enough that I'd primary him to get him more to my side, No way. You guys are freaking crazy and politically Naive. Can't wait till Bush 3.0.
NYT OpEd on Obama's leadership
The point that I am directed to is: We gave Obama a chance because he inspired confidence and optimism as a candidate, now we feel like selecting a republican is not a valid option that will make anything better, so why do we have to be left with only the choice between a failed inspirational leader and a crazy republican? Lack of real choice is quite possibly the MOST frustrating aspect of our current political system.
If we really had a choice in these situations I think it would force those in office to act better because they stand a realistic chance of not being selected to return, rather than simply having to avoid making decisions and saying things that will get the other party selected (who are really just a slightly different shade of grey).
"To those here who feel disappointed that Obama has not united this nation, you overlook the ubiquitous, relentless forces of global mass communication that have thrived on creating disinformation, fear, and uncertainty at the expense of focusing on the bigger message from the White House. My recollection from his inauguration speech was that – finally – we had a decent, thoughtful, intelligent person in the White House whose goals were to find common ground with on another and to move forward. But mass media has been too powerful.
Further, attempts by Obama to advance his message were met with criticism that he was arrogant and too infatuated with the sound of his own voice. History will note that this president was drowned in ignorant ambivalence by swaths of fearful, misinformed (and somewhat racist) critics who somehow expected one man to be both healer and yet autocratically, single-handedly change the entrenched right-wing extremist elements in this nation whose kung-fu grip on waging war and deregulation could not be undone in a matter of a few years. Well, it could not have happened in this age, and I'm not surprised.
If anything, I am sympathetic to Obama's dilemma: where he cannot move in any direction without being attacked by millions. This is not what I call a presidency – it's more like being caged animal. I don't suppose McCain would have faired much differently, had he won.
The sad thing is that we have come to learn that extremists, in a democracy like ours, can hold such strong influence that our collective voices cannot be part of the legislative conversation. That is what I hoped from this presidency, but it will not come to pass. As soon as the filibuster is eliminated, we might actually see some political movement in this country.
I will be sure to remind my children that the age of the early 00s was a sickeningly sad part of our history, where human decency and fraternity were lost in tribal warfare. McLuhan was right."
and
"I myself am sick to death of these progressive anthems wishing the President had been someone other than he is. No one other than Obama could have gotten elected. If progressives want Martin Luther King or FDR as their president, they're going to have to elect him. In political reality (as opposed to progressive fantasy), the president has to be able to win Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, and possibly Virginia and North Carolina. These are places where people don't perceive the great injustices of our time through the progressive political lens. I for one am grateful to have a President who quietly and directly says what he thinks without imagining himself to be glorified as some kind of hero of the left. In this political culture such a hero would accomplish nothing except the kind of catharsis one experiences when screaming at people with whom one disagrees. That kind of pleasure is short lived and immediately regretted."
I can only think of one right wing movement that failed to gain enough wide-spread support to topple its government, the Oswald Mosley unpleasantness in the 30s. I think the only reason Mosley failed was that he was upperclass and spent too much time going to upperclass parties and trying to win support from the upperclass, who had no interest in changing things.
But seriously, is there anyone here who doesn't foresee a fundamentalist victory in America? I don't think I'm being paranoid when I say that we'll probably see it in our lifetimes. It might not come as an immediate coup. It might be one tea-party win here, a state banning evolution teaching there, and eventually we'll be living in JesusLand.
Don't tell me that the internet kids will do anything to prevent it, either. They'll be too busy playing Gears of Kingdom Hearts FinalFantasy VIII on their JesusStations.
I guess another question could be how long an American citizen can reasonably stay before emigrating.
You guys are so panicked and fragile, the US has gone through bad times before and it will again. We'll get through it but not by whiners and people saying "I wonder when I should get out". If you care stop fucking posting in forums and get out there and protest or help someone run for office or do something to change things. The right wing is gaining control because you whiners sat at home instead of voting in 2010. Learn from your mistakes.
The Right wing has over played their hand in the last few months, even people like my dad are catching on that something isn't right and isn't able to blame it completely on Obama. The way to winning is not ideological purity don't make the short sighted mistake the tea party is making with the republicans.
Do you call McCarthyism a movement? It was a one-off witch hunt and scheme for a personal power grab that would also wreak revenge on specific, perceived enemies, not an actual movement with the specific goal of getting a specific slate of people elected and specific policies passed. But if you want to talk about that era, yes,the republicans were very successful at killing Truman's Fair Deal policies and weakening the New Deal under Eisenhower. All the other advances you talked about are currently under attack and some have been seriously weekend over the years.
I posit the only reason the US didn't have a far right movement during the 30s was lack of a charismatic leader. Huey Long might have fit the bill, but he was too concerned about his own enrichment to worry about such things. As long as we're on that subject, however, care to comment about the wide popularity and influence of the KKK during the 20s and 30s?
As far as your argument that we shouldn't fear a "return to traditional values", the tea-types think of us as the establishment. They think they are working for revolutionary, new ideals. You don't win your argument by playing the "old" card.
Finally, don't presume to call me a "whiner" who sat at home during the 2010 elections. You have no idea what monetary contributions I made, the volunteer work I did, or the work I did on election day.
If anyone is superficial here, it's you. It's your type of "it can never happen here" attitude that will allow fundamentalist victory. Yes, but that's not quite what I mean. What I mean is, how long can an American citizen comfortably stay here before seriously making plans to bail? There's going to be relatively safe times, like now, when travel is still easy, but I truly think that if the fundies really win, travel will be restricted more and more until we get to the point where you actually can't get out.
I don't have the "it can never happen here" attitude, but I know what you and Andrew and others have been preaching of late such as having primary challenges for incumbent democrats to drive them further to the left is flawed. Something that will ultimately doom them especially in this current climate. Ultimately I think the more united the left/democrat side is the better as the republican party will fracture under the stress of it's ideological purity. Sure some damage will happen but you have to let your opponent over reach and then strike back. We are a nation of revolutions and counter revolutions. Every time we make two strides forward we tend to move back one step. Don't underestimate each foot we gain though.
\\It is funny that many of the hippies of the 60's are now arch conservatives of the 00's.... You'd think our drug policy would have liberalized by now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
So it's the exact opposite of the New Deal
edit: Okay, I'm sorry for being harsh, it's just that I know you are not dumb.