Neither my brother nor I are citizens of the United States,yet. But he told me that he will do something drastic if either McCain or Obama wins. If Obama wins he will get himself a Mac Book Pro and if McCain wins he will be moving to Canada by January of next year. I think I will follow him on the latter.
I heard the same thing 4 years ago, and I don't fucking care.
They're all epic fail, we're fucked anyway. The rich are rich because they're smart and know how to work the system. I've done it, I got out of paying $500 in taxes one year because of the capitol gains bull shit. You need to take away the ability to game the system.
They're all epic fail, we're fucked anyway. The rich are rich because they're smart and know how to work the system. I've done it, I got out of paying $500 in taxes one year because of the capitol gains bull shit. You need to take away the ability to game the system.
They're all epic fail, we're fucked anyway. The rich are rich because they're smart and know how to work the system. I've done it, I got out of paying $500 in taxes one year because of the capitol gains bull shit. You need to take away the ability to game the system.
Hey, you just agreed with Obama about something.
Fuck, I have to vote for Obama now. Damn it.
I still want McCain to win, because if he does he'll have a Democratic Congress. Balance.
If the only way you can succeed in a system is to game the system, it's really not a very good system then, is it?
Also, the rich are rich because they are smart is patently untrue. Many people are rich because their granddaddy was rich, and because they went to a rich school and met rich friends. Sometimes it's true that a person is a self-made millionaire. Look at all the tech people who invent some new technology and make a bundle off of it. But you know what? Some of the smartest people, your professors and scientists and such, make a comfortable living but aren't exactly rolling in the dough. And okay, what if you have this REALLY SMART KID, right? Like, a little genius. But he lives in a poor neighborhood and doesn't have the money to buy new shoes, let alone go to college. You think he's going to make it very far without that degree? Oh, grants, scholarships and hard work, you say. Well. Those things come from...wait for it...taxes.
Also: Are you pro-science? McCain-Palin want to cut grants for scientific studies.
I still want McCain to win, because if he does he'll have a Democratic Congress. Balance.
I have never seen or heard anything so disingenuous as republicans calling for "balance". It's like the juvenile who during his sentencing for murdering his parents, pled for leniency because he was an orphan.
If the only way you can succeed in a system is to game the system, it's really not a very good system then, is it?
Also, the rich are rich because they are smart is patently untrue. Many people are rich because their granddaddy was rich, and because they went to a rich school and met rich friends. Sometimes it's true that a person is a self-made millionaire. Look at all the tech people who invent some new technology and make a bundle off of it. But you know what? Some of the smartest people, your professors and scientists and such, make a comfortable living but aren't exactly rolling in the dough. And okay, what if you have this REALLY SMART KID, right? Like, a little genius. But he lives in a poor neighborhood and doesn't have the money to buy new shoes, let alone go to college. You think he's going to make it very far without that degree? Oh, grants, scholarships and hard work, you say. Well. Those things come from...wait for it...taxes.
Also: Are you pro-science? McCain-Palin want to cut grants for scientific studies.
You missed my point some what. The point was rich people are smart or have smart people working for them, if there's a loop-hole, they will exploit it. And I'm not anti-taxes for fucks sake! I just don't believe in putting the screws to the rich. They seem to figure out ways around it anyway so what does it actually accomplish. Besides, if we all pay a noticeable amount of taxes, we all have a vested interest in how the government spends it.
I still want McCain to win, because if he does he'll have a Democratic Congress. Balance.
I have never seen or heard anything so disingenuous as republicans calling for "balance". It's like the juvenile who during his sentencing for murdering his parents, pled for leniency because he was an orphan.
I voted Democratic in the 2006 congressional elections to bring balance back to D.C. I'm a moderate Republican, I like the middle, common ground.
All I see in that article is proof that our tax system is fucked and we should just use a Fair Tax.
Then you need to read more carefully. This is the important part:
The real basis for the U.S. tax code is the federal government taxes absolutely everything that it can, but responds to the abilities of powerful individuals and corporations to leave the system. This results in a maximum tax rate, not for the rich, but for the upper middle class, and a maximum tax rate, not for the nation’s largest corporations, but for the medium sized ones. An extremely obvious example of this is the corporate tax schedule. Corporations making over $18,333,333 pay 35% of their marginal taxable income to the federal government. Corporations making less money, for example $15,000,000, pay a larger fraction of their marginal income to the federal government, 38%.
The system is similar for individuals. I have the income of an average American taxpayer. On a marginal basis, I pay 25% of my income to the federal government, 6.75% to the state in which I live and 6.2% to the social security system and 1.45% to Medicare, putting me in about the 40% marginal tax bracket. Bill Gates tax bracket is well below 15%. Bill Gates and most wealthy Americans make the majority of their money off of capital gains, not earned income. The maximum long-term capital gains tax rate is 15% and this is only paid when stocks are sold. The net effect is Bill Gates, and other Billionaire’s, wealth grows largely tax-free while people whose primary source of income is labor pay 40% or more of their income to the government in taxes. Federal income tax complications such as the alternative minimum tax, which is affecting more and more middle class Americans, make this problem even worse. The effect of this tax system is to make the rich richer relative to the middle class. The only way the middle class can join the wealthy is by starting and selling companies or by very astute stock selection. Working hard at a job will only result in the government taking most of your money.
The tax system is progressive, but it is not - as you have asserted - unfair to the rich. It is exceedingly easy on them, while placing the real burden (as a percentage of income) on the middle class.
You also need to understand how idiotic the fair tax is. Let's assume everyone pays 25 percent of their income in taxes. That's much lower than the current actual collection rate, by the way.
Jessica Jones, 24, is a single mother with two children living in Cleveland. She makes $20,000 per year. Sam Smith is a single father with two children living in the same city, but he makes $100,000 per year.
Jessica pays one-fourth of her income in taxes. That's $5,000. Gary does the same. That's $25,000.
Who is better off? Both pay the same share. Both have the same needs. Gary pays more! But the fair tax still favors Gary and hurts Jessica because of real income and purchasing power. Bread still costs $2 per loaf. A pair of pants still costs $40. The electric bill still costs $100 per month. Gas is still $2.50 per gallon.
The "fair" tax hurts people who need the money most, and it kills the chance for upward mobility. It also greatly increases the opportunity cost as a percentage of income for the nation's lowest earners, which means the wealth gap can only ever widen.
That means the fair tax is a pro-nobility tax. It creates a de facto serfdom of the lower class. It would empower America's unofficial aristocracy while disenfranchising the financially destitute.
They call it the "fair tax" to fool people like gedavids. They're insidious that way. It's the same sort of wordplay that gave us the "death tax" and the "Healthy Forests Initiative".
They call it the "fair tax" to fool people like gedavids. They're insidious that way. It's tje same sort of wordplay that gave us the "death tax" and the "Healthy Forests Initiative".
They call it the "fair tax" to fool people like gedavids. They're insidious that way. It's the same sort of wordplay that gave us the "death tax" and the "Healthy Forests Initiative".
Not that I disagree, but I'd like to hear your beef with the Healthy Forest Initiative. Some of the "problems" that I've read people having with it are presumptions that aren't based on truth. It's not a perfect piece of policy, but it's far from terrible. Private forests have been maintained in the way that the initiative uses for a fairly long time with excellent results, and not just for producing timber. Also for wildlife diversity and ecological benefit.
I gave up already! You guys have won. You have swayed my opinion.
Wait, did we just convince you or are you just done with the conversation, because this would be the first time ever some has changed an opinion because of a forum thread ^_^
I gave up already! You guys have won. You have swayed my opinion.
Wait, did we just convince you or are you just done with the conversation, because this would be the first time ever some has changed an opinion because of a forum thread ^_^
No, you guys have convinced me, I give up. I will support Obama (at the very least I won't vote McCain) under the pretense that he's going to try and fix the tax code so that the rich can't exploit loop holes like crazy anymore.
And I only reason I slightly lean to a "Fair Tax" is cause there's no way to cheat. I know there are issues with it not being "fair" to those with lower incomes, but is the current system really any different?
The tax system is progressive, but it is not - as you have asserted - unfair to the rich. It is exceedingly easy on them, while placing the real burden (as a percentage of income) on the middle class.
See I don't quite agree with that, what's wrong with 95% of the people paying 40% of the taxes?
See I don't quite agree with that, what's wrong with 95% of the people paying 40% of the taxes?
WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT PERCENTAGE OF INCOME?
Rich people pay a smaller percentage of their incomes, which is more net money. The middle class pays a larger percentage of their incomes, which is less net money. WHO NEEDS MONEY MORE? RICH PEOPLE OR THE MIDDLE CLASS?
This is math. If you don't quite agree with it, it means you can't add.
They call it the "fair tax" to fool people like gedavids. They're insidious that way. It's the same sort of wordplay that gave us the "death tax" and the "Healthy Forests Initiative".
Not that I disagree, but I'd like to hear your beef with the Healthy Forest Initiative.
I don't spend that much time thinking about it. I just think they should have called it something more descriptive of what it actually does, like "The Giving Use of Public Lands to Timber Companies Initiative".
Comments
I still want McCain to win, because if he does he'll have a Democratic Congress. Balance.
Also, the rich are rich because they are smart is patently untrue. Many people are rich because their granddaddy was rich, and because they went to a rich school and met rich friends. Sometimes it's true that a person is a self-made millionaire. Look at all the tech people who invent some new technology and make a bundle off of it. But you know what? Some of the smartest people, your professors and scientists and such, make a comfortable living but aren't exactly rolling in the dough. And okay, what if you have this REALLY SMART KID, right? Like, a little genius. But he lives in a poor neighborhood and doesn't have the money to buy new shoes, let alone go to college. You think he's going to make it very far without that degree? Oh, grants, scholarships and hard work, you say. Well. Those things come from...wait for it...taxes.
Also: Are you pro-science? McCain-Palin want to cut grants for scientific studies.
You also need to understand how idiotic the fair tax is. Let's assume everyone pays 25 percent of their income in taxes. That's much lower than the current actual collection rate, by the way.
Jessica Jones, 24, is a single mother with two children living in Cleveland. She makes $20,000 per year. Sam Smith is a single father with two children living in the same city, but he makes $100,000 per year.
Jessica pays one-fourth of her income in taxes. That's $5,000. Gary does the same. That's $25,000.
Who is better off? Both pay the same share. Both have the same needs. Gary pays more! But the fair tax still favors Gary and hurts Jessica because of real income and purchasing power. Bread still costs $2 per loaf. A pair of pants still costs $40. The electric bill still costs $100 per month. Gas is still $2.50 per gallon.
The "fair" tax hurts people who need the money most, and it kills the chance for upward mobility. It also greatly increases the opportunity cost as a percentage of income for the nation's lowest earners, which means the wealth gap can only ever widen.
That means the fair tax is a pro-nobility tax. It creates a de facto serfdom of the lower class. It would empower America's unofficial aristocracy while disenfranchising the financially destitute.
For instance, what if you want to salvage the vital organs of prepubescent orphans? Name your program "Happy Children Donors Freedom Fund".
And I only reason I slightly lean to a "Fair Tax" is cause there's no way to cheat. I know there are issues with it not being "fair" to those with lower incomes, but is the current system really any different? See I don't quite agree with that, what's wrong with 95% of the people paying 40% of the taxes?
Rich people pay a smaller percentage of their incomes, which is more net money. The middle class pays a larger percentage of their incomes, which is less net money. WHO NEEDS MONEY MORE? RICH PEOPLE OR THE MIDDLE CLASS?
This is math. If you don't quite agree with it, it means you can't add.