I wonder: What are these hentai watchers working out? I think in the case of guro they have issues with women and feel resentment for some sort of slight. They want to have complete revenge on all the women who denied them sexually. In the case of lolicon, they want an object of desire that they have complete physical control over and are both mentally and physically able to overpower. I have no idea, really, that is just my guess of some of the things that might make people seek this shit out.
Think someone is creepy if you want, but don't assume they have no respect for life or are pro rape just because you don't like their taste in porn.
Based on my experience at anime clubs/cons, everyone I've ever met who was into that stuff was a bad person, inside and out. It's not a definite sign of someone's internal thoughts, but nonetheless a person's outward tastes are an indication of their internal thought processes in some manner.
I'm not going to argue with you. That sort of shit freaks me right the hell out. I just find the argument of "he likes violent porn so he must be a violent maniac" argument to be very similar to the "he likes violent games so he must be a violent maniac" argument.
I just find the argument of "he likes violent porn so he must be a violent maniac" argument to be very similar to the "he likes violent games so he must be a violent maniac" argument.
I make the easier argument of "he likes violent porn, so he's likely a shitty person with whom I'm not going to associate."
I do think that there is something in their thought processes in regards to women or children that is fucked up. I didn't say that they were going to stab someone, I just think they have issues towards other people that make me way uncomfortable. That article Walker posted even points to the fact that weird fantasies are maybe about issues. What the fuck kind of issues do these people have with women?
Rym's points about gore and stuff do make me wonder about myself now. For instance, my wife is currently working on laying out some medical trauma training manuals for one of her clients. These manuals include some extremely gory pictures of the types of injuries trauma workers may have to face. These injury photos include severe burns, dismemberment, a poor guy who was blown to smithereens by a landmine, and so on. My wife has too weak a stomach for any of this gore, so she asked me if I can handle the images, knowing that gore doesn't bug me... And, frankly, it didn't.
Then again, I suppose I'm no worse than the trauma teams that would have to see this stuff in real life.
I have a hypothesis I've mulled over for a long time.
1. Scary socially awkward dudes are scary and socially awkward.
2. They have no luck with women, leading to resentment.
3. Relying on copious masturbation, they become increasingly spiteful, and this is reflected in their choice of pornography (i.e., a sort of revenge fantasy).
4. Feedback loop, coupled with a media industry to support said loop.
Then again, I suppose I'm no worse than the trauma teams that would have to see this stuff in real life.
Remember: Robocop was pretty damn violent, yet there were toys and other media for the franchise aimed at 8-11 year old boys. Society seems to have assumed that those kids were fans of Robocop (and they were by and large). ;^)
I just find the argument of "he likes violent porn so he must be a violent maniac" argument to be very similar to the "he likes violent games so he must be a violent maniac" argument.
I make the easier argument of "he likes violent porn, so he's likely a shitty person with whom I'm not going to associate."
I've always worked more along the lines of "If I know what type of porn you like and haven't already decided whether or not you are worthwhile there is likely something very wrong here."
Maybe I travel in less "open" social circles than you do. ;p
Also, I don't understand people who can't empathize at fictional situations. This is the thing that allows me to cry at poignant animation. With the manga creeps, that may not be a real child, but it represents the idea of a child. How can someone completely separate the symbolic from the real in terms of feelings?
Why is the recurring theme of Forum Flame Wars this week rape? We couldn't have chosen something less charged to fight over, like abortion, or the death penalty?
Then again, I suppose I'm no worse than the trauma teams that would have to see this stuff in real life.
Remember: Robocop was pretty damn violent, yet there were toys and other media for the franchise aimed at 8-11 year old boys. Society seems to have assumed that those kids were fans of Robocop (and they were by and large). ;^)
That is a good point. I know I was, back in the day. Although the first time I saw Robocop I was taken aback by just how violent it was.
I guess part of my thing is that even though the images don't bother me, I don't get any sort of enjoyment out of the trauma images -- just sort of an unemotional "that's unfortunate" sort of thing at looking at them. I'm not so sure I'd feel the same way if I saw these actual injuries in real life -- in fact, that's part of the reason why, despite my father's nearly constant urging growing up, I didn't choose to become a doctor. I didn't want to have to deal with horrific injuries, death, and illness on a daily basis.
Why is the recurring theme of Forum Flame Wars this week rape? We couldn't have chosen something less charged to fight over, like abortion, or the death penalty?
Also, I don't understand people who can't empathize at fictional situations. This is the thing that allows me to cry at poignant animation. With the manga creeps, that may not be a real child, but it represents the idea of a child. How can someone completely separate the symbolic from the real in terms of feelings?
Well, look at me. I cry at the slightest provocation in many works. I tear up just thinking about SOMEONE dying in Trigun, or someone shooting at the ceiling trying to convince someone not to go somewhere in Cowboy Bebop. It's only the literal, specific violence to which I have no visceral reaction: not the consequences of said violence.
The manga creeps have an added layer of fucked-uped-ness. It's not that they have no reaction to violence, it's that they have a positive reaction to both it and its consequences.
@Dragonmaster Lou I don't think that means much is wrong with you, I think it is more like being a doctor who has to keep detached at injuries. Not everyone has the same reaction to things. Some people cry and are upset easily, some people are more even-keeled. I think that being able to look at injuries without freaking out is totally different than wanking to the idea of someone's death.
@Dragonmaster Lou I don't think that means much is wrong with you, I think it is more like being a doctor who has to keep detached at injuries. Not everyone has the same reaction to things. Some people cry and are upset easily, some people are more even-keeled. I think that being able to look at injuries without freaking out is totally different than wanking to the idea of someone's death.
That is a good point, and it is reassuring that I'm just capable of being detached. I've suspected the same myself, but it's always good to get confirmation from someone else.
I have more of a problem with images of dismemberment and death than I do with those things in person. In person, I become extremely analytical and pragmatic about how to address what's going on, but I can't stomach rotten.com or spacedicks or any of that stuff.
@Dragonmaster Lou Case in point: My sister did a lot of autopsies last year during her pathology studies, and she handled it. I don't think I could, but that doesn't mean she is less empathetic, just that she is able to keep cool about it. I think many times doctors, when confronted with cadavers, think "that's too bad," but they cannot grieve over every individual. They have to be practical, because once someone is dead, there is nothing to be done. They have to focus on pragmatic solutions, fixing things that they can change. You can't undo those injuries in the photos, so you don't get upset about them.
I have a hypothesis I've mulled over for a long time.
1. Scary socially awkward dudes are scary and socially awkward.
2. They have no luck with women, leading to resentment.
3. Relying on copious masturbation, they become increasingly spiteful, and this is reflected in their choice of pornography (i.e., a sort of revenge fantasy).
4. Feedback loop, coupled with a media industry to support said loop.
I think this hypothesis is definitely holds for many such people, but not all of them. Different socially awkward dudes all have different feelings that they act out in different ways to different levels. Surely, some may want to get revenge on those evil women. Common as that may be, I do not think that is the most common.
What I see mostly on the Internets is forever alone types blaming themselves, not women. They think they suck and are incapable of getting a girlfriend by the usual means. Of course, the root of this problem is that they think of a girlfriend as an object to be acquired, but that's another topic entirely.
This lack of self esteem leads to fantasies about getting sex by some means that they feel they are personally capable of pulling off. Those means are typically going to be unusual, illegal, unacceptable, and just plain wrong.
For example they might fantasize about pulling a cave man and hitting a woman over the head with a club and dragging her home. Is it really because they want revenge on the woman? For some it is. But for these losers I think it is simply that they feel they will never be able to get sex "the right way," but clubbing someone on the head is something they feel capable of doing, whether they do it or not.
I even think moe fits into this category. An intelligent adult woman will never even talk to you, let alone be near you. They run away because you are creepy and gross. Well, a little innocent girl doesn't feel that way. You can get them to love you no matter how creepy you are. And they will still love you when they mature.
Consider even the famous casting couch. It fulfills the same exact fantasy. If I give job interviews to desperate women, they will have sex with me to get the job no matter what I am like!
Another feeling that these creeps may have is simply that the woman for them does not exist in the world. That I think is why you get porn of cosplay, or suicide girls, and such. Look, there is a woman in this world made for me! There she is!
I just find the argument of "he likes violent porn so he must be a violent maniac" argument to be very similar to the "he likes violent games so he must be a violent maniac" argument.
I make the easier argument of "he likes violent porn, so he's likely a shitty person with whom I'm not going to associate."
It's perfectly reasonable (and often by far the most sensible course of action) to choose not to associate with people based on their tastes.
However, one should be very wary of psychoanalysis, especially one's own psychoanalysis of others. It's a useful shortcut, but it hardly justifies a conclusion that someone is "broken" or a "bad person". There are all too many biases that one is vulnerable to in one's judgement of others.
Also, in cases where this is actually a mental health issue, then that's all the more reason to react less harshly to such behaviours, not more. As much as we've progressed, treatment of mentally ill persons remains seriously regressive; even though "get therapy" is a lot better than "get over it", compassion is still very much in order.
It's perfectly reasonable (and often by far the most sensible course of action) to choose not to associate with people based on their tastes.
However, one should be very wary of psychoanalysis, especially one's own psychoanalysis of others. It's a useful shortcut, but it hardly justifies a conclusion that someone is "broken" or a "bad person". There are all too many biases that one is vulnerable to in one's judgement of others.
Also, in cases where this is actually a mental health issue, then that's all the more reason to react less harshly to such behaviours, not more. As much as we've progressed, treatment of mentally ill persons remains seriously regressive; even though "get therapy" is a lot better than "get over it", compassion is still very much in order.
All this. I'm glad you put it that way, as I was having trouble figuring out how to say something similar.
One problem with armchair analysis is that it often seems to tell you more about the person doing the analysis than the person being analyzed. And in general, evaluating exactly how, why, and on what level a person enjoyed particular aspects of a particular thing is a really granular thing. I have trouble making any judgement call anonymously across the internet without more information. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I'm just saying I can't jump to those conclusions.
I'd like to know what manga in question were the offending titles, as lolicon can vary from very violent to really sappy. Regardless, I still regard it all as art where no real person was harmed, but what STORIES he was reading is as important as what GENRE he was reading.
Comments
What the fuck kind of issues do these people have with women?
Then again, I suppose I'm no worse than the trauma teams that would have to see this stuff in real life.
1. Scary socially awkward dudes are scary and socially awkward.
2. They have no luck with women, leading to resentment.
3. Relying on copious masturbation, they become increasingly spiteful, and this is reflected in their choice of pornography (i.e., a sort of revenge fantasy).
4. Feedback loop, coupled with a media industry to support said loop.
Maybe I travel in less "open" social circles than you do. ;p
With the manga creeps, that may not be a real child, but it represents the idea of a child. How can someone completely separate the symbolic from the real in terms of feelings?
I guess part of my thing is that even though the images don't bother me, I don't get any sort of enjoyment out of the trauma images -- just sort of an unemotional "that's unfortunate" sort of thing at looking at them. I'm not so sure I'd feel the same way if I saw these actual injuries in real life -- in fact, that's part of the reason why, despite my father's nearly constant urging growing up, I didn't choose to become a doctor. I didn't want to have to deal with horrific injuries, death, and illness on a daily basis. Or Emacs vs. vi? :P
The manga creeps have an added layer of fucked-uped-ness. It's not that they have no reaction to violence, it's that they have a positive reaction to both it and its consequences.
I don't think that means much is wrong with you, I think it is more like being a doctor who has to keep detached at injuries.
Not everyone has the same reaction to things. Some people cry and are upset easily, some people are more even-keeled. I think that being able to look at injuries without freaking out is totally different than wanking to the idea of someone's death.
Case in point: My sister did a lot of autopsies last year during her pathology studies, and she handled it. I don't think I could, but that doesn't mean she is less empathetic, just that she is able to keep cool about it. I think many times doctors, when confronted with cadavers, think "that's too bad," but they cannot grieve over every individual. They have to be practical, because once someone is dead, there is nothing to be done. They have to focus on pragmatic solutions, fixing things that they can change. You can't undo those injuries in the photos, so you don't get upset about them.
What I see mostly on the Internets is forever alone types blaming themselves, not women. They think they suck and are incapable of getting a girlfriend by the usual means. Of course, the root of this problem is that they think of a girlfriend as an object to be acquired, but that's another topic entirely.
This lack of self esteem leads to fantasies about getting sex by some means that they feel they are personally capable of pulling off. Those means are typically going to be unusual, illegal, unacceptable, and just plain wrong.
For example they might fantasize about pulling a cave man and hitting a woman over the head with a club and dragging her home. Is it really because they want revenge on the woman? For some it is. But for these losers I think it is simply that they feel they will never be able to get sex "the right way," but clubbing someone on the head is something they feel capable of doing, whether they do it or not.
I even think moe fits into this category. An intelligent adult woman will never even talk to you, let alone be near you. They run away because you are creepy and gross. Well, a little innocent girl doesn't feel that way. You can get them to love you no matter how creepy you are. And they will still love you when they mature.
Consider even the famous casting couch. It fulfills the same exact fantasy. If I give job interviews to desperate women, they will have sex with me to get the job no matter what I am like!
Another feeling that these creeps may have is simply that the woman for them does not exist in the world. That I think is why you get porn of cosplay, or suicide girls, and such. Look, there is a woman in this world made for me! There she is!
Every creepy dude has his own creepy feels.
However, one should be very wary of psychoanalysis, especially one's own psychoanalysis of others. It's a useful shortcut, but it hardly justifies a conclusion that someone is "broken" or a "bad person". There are all too many biases that one is vulnerable to in one's judgement of others.
Also, in cases where this is actually a mental health issue, then that's all the more reason to react less harshly to such behaviours, not more. As much as we've progressed, treatment of mentally ill persons remains seriously regressive; even though "get therapy" is a lot better than "get over it", compassion is still very much in order.
One problem with armchair analysis is that it often seems to tell you more about the person doing the analysis than the person being analyzed. And in general, evaluating exactly how, why, and on what level a person enjoyed particular aspects of a particular thing is a really granular thing. I have trouble making any judgement call anonymously across the internet without more information. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I'm just saying I can't jump to those conclusions.