I'd like to know what manga in question were the offending titles, as lolicon can vary from very violent to really sappy. Regardless, I still regard it all as art where no real person was harmed, but what STORIES he was reading is as important as what GENRE he was reading.
For example, did he just plead guilty because when the prosecutor pulled up a particular issue he just went dead faced and said, "No, yeah, that shit's fucked up. And I'm fucked up for reading it. I belong in jail."
Based on my experience at anime clubs/cons, everyone I've ever met who was into that stuff was a bad person, inside and out. It's not a definite sign of someone's internal thoughts, but nonetheless a person's outward tastes are an indication of their internal thought processes in some manner.
In your experience, people who disagree with you on porn are not bad people. People who are vocal enough about their porn to where you know what it is are bad people! How can you overlook something so obvious? Of course the crazy person showing off his porn collection is not gonna be into normal porn. That doesn't mean anyone who's into different porn are horrible people.
They are gross and creepy and enjoy bad things.
The argument can be made that most of us are gross and creepy and enjoy bad things. If the bad things hurt no one then whats the problem?
I don't want to be around the scary guy from anime club who likes horrid violent hentai. The fact that his sexual fantasies center around killing women makes me think that even if he never hurts a fly, he still is someone who I cannot at all relate to and has something seriously wrong with the way he views human beings. He has no respect for the idea of life and empathy. Same can be said for people who like pedo manga. They like the idea of rape. Someone like that is creepy.
Don't you read yaoi manga and masturbate to it? That's drawings on paper! How messed up is that?! And all that gay stuff is about spreading AIDS and torturing each other! Now I can't really defend guro stuff, but being a pedophile is not wrong. It's something out of your control. Acting on it is wrong, and I'm sure most people who read loli manga know this and would never want to actually hurt anyone or have sex with a minor. However, the sex with minors in pedo manga is not rape. That 5 year old character does not actually have a 5 year old mindset. He or she has the mindset of the artist. Meaning that when that 5 year old has consensual sex, it's actually consensual, because the character is in a state of mind to be able to make that judgment.
As for the rape fantasy thing; I have those. I like to imagine my boyfriend raping me. I'd be horrified and not pleased at all if it was anyone else, but I can still get into the domination part of it. Does that make me a rapist who should be locked away?
Imma go ahead and defend the Guro stuff. Read this.
In my mind this supports something along the lines of Rym's analysis:
I have a hypothesis I've mulled over for a long time.
1. Scary socially awkward dudes are scary and socially awkward.
2. They have no luck with women, leading to resentment.
3. Relying on copious masturbation, they become increasingly spiteful, and this is reflected in their choice of pornography (i.e., a sort of revenge fantasy).
4. Feedback loop, coupled with a media industry to support said loop.
Minus the judgmental bullshit. It doesn't take a disturbed mind or some kind of resentment to harbor domination or even rape fantasies, which can then snowball into more extreme pornography through overindulgence. Overindulgence, though, does imply a lot of loneliness, which is more of a shame than anything.
It isn't wise collapse the "creepy dudes" into a caricature based only on the dimensions visible to you. Somebody might be smelly, into weird porn, and hard to have a conversation with, but they have a brain just like you. Their inner life is just as involved and the darkness that came before them is just as complex. Don't pretend to understand anyone you haven't taken the time to know.
I still think these people have huge issues. I also did not say they were "not people," I said that these people had a fixation on really bad ideas, which, since they are ideas, are available to my harsh judgement. If someone likes a bad idea I can say "That is a terrible idea. Gross." If it is okay to critique fiction, it is okay to critique porn. Also, re: mental illness - To put it bluntly: A psychopath is broken and it probably is not their fault, but they are still very horrible. These people who look at scary porn are less dangerous, but just because they have some issues that they need to take to counselling does not mean I don't find them uber creepy. They like the idea of killing women. Don't people like things that get them off?
Don't you read yaoi manga and masturbate to it? That's drawings on paper! How messed up is that?! And all that gay stuff is about spreading AIDS and torturing each other!
Don't need to look at comic books, silly! Imagination is the best. Also, the BL and yuri I prefer is usually more story/relationship based, less porn.
Okay - here's my thought process. In my personal experience, I LIKE things that turn me on. I feel like they are nice things. I think about why I like to think about them, and why they make me feel happy and warm and glowing. These reasons are often connected to emotions and likes outside of sex. Then I think about people who like mean porn. How could such horribleness be what makes them happy and warm and glowing? How could they like it when its ideas are cruel? You are right, I don't know their minds, I can only guess from my own perspective. That is why I assume they are scary and mean people.
There is a very fucked dynamic in existence about that anyway, yo. Men and women's sexualities are presented and taught by society very differently and have very different associated memes. Conservative culture tries to enforce the idea that female sexuality is somewhere between gross, subservient and non-existent, but fortunately this is some pretty blatant shit and there is a strong counter-message of empowerment. On the flip side, male sexuality is heavily embroiled by pretty much everyone with messages of control, power, denigration and destruction.
So there is a pretty insurmountable lack of understanding both ways. Women who embrace their sexualities and look for positive messages find them; it's super terrible that they are discouraged from embracing their sexualities at all, and I would never claim women have it easier in any sphere, but I think that is a thing that is true. Yes, they'll have to spend their whole lives fighting the oppression around it, but at least they know there is a fight going on! By contrast, no matter where you go in culture male sexuality is always presented as the same fucked-up dominance shit. The only difference is that the conservative side talks about it in positive terms (with the implication that it is a reflection of general male superiority and power = masculinity) while progressive viewpoints (rightly) fear that destructive, controlling nature.
The amount of power dynamic bullshit surrounding sexuality is staggering! Why do you think that is the most common building blocks of fetishes? Women are trained from day one to be passive and put the needs of others first, and a lot of women have fantasies about being submissive, even to the extremes of rape and such. Men are trained from day one to be "alphas", to treat their sexuality like a weapon and tie it up in terms of warfare and violence. Holy shit, you end up with a lot of fucked up creepy dudes who equate power and violence with sex! And lots of people get fed up with it and flip the script into femdom and such.
And any way we approach it makes things worse. Encourage people to explore their sexualities, they'll perpetuate the memes that have been impressed upon them. Try to discourage it, you just make everyone miserable and don't fix the root problem.
Basically, fuck the patriarchy.
(I should probably get that tattooed onto me somewhere, I say it often enough.)
Well, it's disappointing because he plead guilty. I guess pleading guilty is better than a guilty verdict, but it's still not good. Let's hope that a bad legal precedent is not set just because they went after someone who didn't have the guts to stand up for themselves.
If memory serves (IE: When AWO mentioned the Chris Handley Case) you need to go through a trial before it gets to precedent.
This is a really interesting article and made me rethink a few things about internet addictions. Walker, that psychology site has some neat articles. Part of this one was the re-enforcement thing Rym talked about. I had also considered the idea of porn escalation, very similar to drugs. Maybe it is like these people are mentally shooting up guro or loli porn like someone would heroin. They need strong, fucked up shit to feel anything. I still say watchers of scaryporn seem to me to lack empathy, because even if the situation is fictional, I wonder why they don't get upset at the idea of scarything. I also still think they are creepy and gross and enjoy bad ideas. If the article is right, they should go detox their brains with some healthy stuff. I am not porn addicted, maybe the problem is I am trying to view it too much from my perspective, and over-analyzing. I was ascribing deep-seated problems when it might be dopamine hunger. It is possibly both, and varies case to case.
I am not porn addicted, maybe the problem is I am trying to view it too much from my perspective, and over-analyzing. I was ascribing deep-seated problems when it might be dopamine hunger. It is possibly both, and varies case to case.
That is the main thing I'm trying to get at. I think that ascribing a deep and involved psychological process should never involve generalization, and should never be based entirely on one's subjective experience. The dopamine feedback loop is simple and apparently well-understood by psychologists, so it is the farthest judgement I am willing to pass on people who like scary porn.
I still say watchers of scaryporn seem to me to lack empathy, because even if the situation is fictional, I wonder why they don't get upset at the idea of scarything.
I just had the thought that they very well may be upset. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the average scaryporn enthusiast goes through some degree of cognitive dissonance in relation to scaryporn. The excitement of fear and horror might even make it more exciting, as gross as that is.
I still say watchers of scaryporn seem to me to lack empathy, because even if the situation is fictional, I wonder why they don't get upset at the idea of scarything.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that you are an outlier on the side of having higher level empathy relative to the average. I wish more people were like that, but I think there are quite a few more people that experience things either more viscerally or more rationally by-and-large.
One point I would like to bring up is the examples others have made about people who like creep scary porn. That these people are unable to have a sexual relationship with another person because obviously if you enjoy this unhealthy porn you don't ever get laid. That these creeps can be spotted in a crowd because they smell and are socially awkward. But there is another type of creep which doesn't smell and isn't socially awkward and has a sex life. But still enjoys their scary porn. What of those people? Do they need help? How do you distant yourself from folks that are good at hiding their creepy kinks?
The thing that bothers me about the "scary porn = bad person" argument is that it's really not that far from arguments like "violent movies = bad person" and "growly brutal metal music = bad person" and "violent vidjigames = bad person" and these are all beliefs that most of us do not ascribe to.
So what makes violent porn different from similarly violent or dark movies, vidjigames, and music? I'm not a fan of that sort of porn either, but I'm not about to judge someone based solely what sort of porn they watch.
I still say watchers of scaryporn seem to me to lack empathy, because even if the situation is fictional, I wonder why they don't get upset at the idea of scarything.
I just had the thought that they very well may be upset. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the average scaryporn enthusiast goes through some degree of cognitive dissonance in relation to scaryporn. The excitement of fear and horror might even make it more exciting, as gross as that is.
There's research to suggest the human brain confuses fear with arousal when around something or someone we're attracted to. They might have associated the horror of looking at such images with sexual arousal when it is a sexy female (or sexy male) that is getting messed up.
The thing that bothers me about the "scary porn = bad person" argument is that it's really not that far from arguments like "violent movies = bad person" and "growly brutal metal music = bad person" and "violent vidjigames = bad person" and these are all beliefs that most of us do not ascribe to.
So what makes violent porn different from similarly violent or dark movies, vidjigames, and music? I'm not a fan of that sort of porn either, but I'm not about to judge someone based solely what sort of porn they watch.
I think people who like movies like "hostel" weird me out a little too. I am not a huge fan of gratuitous violence. I think that enjoying something just because it is violent is kinda weird. I do enjoy some media that is pretty violent, but the context matters a lot. Thinking about Robocop, the scene where he gets shot to pieces is very graphic. I think it is good, though, because it really sets up how horrible what he went through was and how complete the destruction of his body was. Violence should mean something, otherwise how could it be enjoyable? Violence in movies and books upsets me, and sometimes I want to be upset because it intensifies the narrative. When I play an FPS, I am simulating an aggressive survival situation. I am gaining feelings of accomplishment from clicking on that guy's virtual head before he clicks on mine. It feels a lot like sports, which are also battle simulations to some extent. I am playing against people in aggressive competition in a safe way, which acts as a catharsis for desire to fight against a challenging threat. A video game where you went around shooting unarmed children would raise many eyebrows, I bet. It just bothers me that not only does the scaryporn fanboy seemingly put violence (disturbing, aggressive) and sex (loving, pleasure) in the same mental bucket, It is not "I can't believe that protagonist made it out from that intense battle alive" It is not "I have to shoot that zombie threat before it eats me" He seems to be made to feel nice by the idea of beating women or cutting up little girls. Are they a threat? This reminds me of the "innocent children shooting game" example I made up. Why are the sex wires and the mean thoughts wires so crossed?
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As for the rape fantasy thing; I have those. I like to imagine my boyfriend raping me. I'd be horrified and not pleased at all if it was anyone else, but I can still get into the domination part of it. Does that make me a rapist who should be locked away?
In my mind this supports something along the lines of Rym's analysis: Minus the judgmental bullshit. It doesn't take a disturbed mind or some kind of resentment to harbor domination or even rape fantasies, which can then snowball into more extreme pornography through overindulgence. Overindulgence, though, does imply a lot of loneliness, which is more of a shame than anything.
Also, re: mental illness - To put it bluntly: A psychopath is broken and it probably is not their fault, but they are still very horrible. These people who look at scary porn are less dangerous, but just because they have some issues that they need to take to counselling does not mean I don't find them uber creepy. They like the idea of killing women. Don't people like things that get them off? Don't need to look at comic books, silly! Imagination is the best. Also, the BL and yuri I prefer is usually more story/relationship based, less porn.
Then I think about people who like mean porn. How could such horribleness be what makes them happy and warm and glowing? How could they like it when its ideas are cruel?
You are right, I don't know their minds, I can only guess from my own perspective. That is why I assume they are scary and mean people.
So there is a pretty insurmountable lack of understanding both ways. Women who embrace their sexualities and look for positive messages find them; it's super terrible that they are discouraged from embracing their sexualities at all, and I would never claim women have it easier in any sphere, but I think that is a thing that is true. Yes, they'll have to spend their whole lives fighting the oppression around it, but at least they know there is a fight going on! By contrast, no matter where you go in culture male sexuality is always presented as the same fucked-up dominance shit. The only difference is that the conservative side talks about it in positive terms (with the implication that it is a reflection of general male superiority and power = masculinity) while progressive viewpoints (rightly) fear that destructive, controlling nature.
The amount of power dynamic bullshit surrounding sexuality is staggering! Why do you think that is the most common building blocks of fetishes? Women are trained from day one to be passive and put the needs of others first, and a lot of women have fantasies about being submissive, even to the extremes of rape and such. Men are trained from day one to be "alphas", to treat their sexuality like a weapon and tie it up in terms of warfare and violence. Holy shit, you end up with a lot of fucked up creepy dudes who equate power and violence with sex! And lots of people get fed up with it and flip the script into femdom and such.
And any way we approach it makes things worse. Encourage people to explore their sexualities, they'll perpetuate the memes that have been impressed upon them. Try to discourage it, you just make everyone miserable and don't fix the root problem.
Basically, fuck the patriarchy.
(I should probably get that tattooed onto me somewhere, I say it often enough.)
Walker, that psychology site has some neat articles. Part of this one was the re-enforcement thing Rym talked about. I had also considered the idea of porn escalation, very similar to drugs. Maybe it is like these people are mentally shooting up guro or loli porn like someone would heroin. They need strong, fucked up shit to feel anything.
I still say watchers of scaryporn seem to me to lack empathy, because even if the situation is fictional, I wonder why they don't get upset at the idea of scarything. I also still think they are creepy and gross and enjoy bad ideas. If the article is right, they should go detox their brains with some healthy stuff.
I am not porn addicted, maybe the problem is I am trying to view it too much from my perspective, and over-analyzing. I was ascribing deep-seated problems when it might be dopamine hunger. It is possibly both, and varies case to case.
Do they need help? How do you distant yourself from folks that are good at hiding their creepy kinks?
So what makes violent porn different from similarly violent or dark movies, vidjigames, and music? I'm not a fan of that sort of porn either, but I'm not about to judge someone based solely what sort of porn they watch.
When I play an FPS, I am simulating an aggressive survival situation. I am gaining feelings of accomplishment from clicking on that guy's virtual head before he clicks on mine. It feels a lot like sports, which are also battle simulations to some extent. I am playing against people in aggressive competition in a safe way, which acts as a catharsis for desire to fight against a challenging threat. A video game where you went around shooting unarmed children would raise many eyebrows, I bet.
It just bothers me that not only does the scaryporn fanboy seemingly put violence (disturbing, aggressive) and sex (loving, pleasure) in the same mental bucket,
It is not "I can't believe that protagonist made it out from that intense battle alive"
It is not "I have to shoot that zombie threat before it eats me"
He seems to be made to feel nice by the idea of beating women or cutting up little girls. Are they a threat? This reminds me of the "innocent children shooting game" example I made up. Why are the sex wires and the mean thoughts wires so crossed?