A loan is never a handout it is a handup. Free stuff is a handout.
What is "free stuff?" We never get anything for free. We pay for our transportation. We would pay for our health care. I am subsidizing you veteran benefits with each paycheck. All this is is collectivization. We all put a little bit in the communal pot so the society can have nice things to all share, like parks, roads, and even you getting help buying a house.
Free stuff is anything you don't pay for. Note I didn't specify anything as being "free stuff"? I merely pointed out that a loan is not a handout.
It's absolutely a handout. You get much better terms than a non-veteran. What did you do to earn that? Hang out at the motor pool for a couple of years?
It's still not a handout, it is a benefit. It was clearly defined and explained prior to my signing the papers. It's no different than any other benefit offered by an employer to entice you into working for them.
Still no answer to what constitutes "destructive social behavior" and why?
Pick up a psychology text book.
Too busy? Bullying is an example of destructive social behavior.
Sometimes destructive social behavior can have very immediate and deadly effects. Like when someone tapes someone else having sex and then posts it on the Internet resulting in the person caught on film killing them self.
Do you need more examples?
Anything less than a functional family is suboptimal and may lead to social problems for the members of said dis-functional family. It's that simple. In that light some of what the social cons say does make sense, they just need to broaden their definition of what constitutes a family.
I think even Joe has to agree with that statement. Tell us Joe, how many of the degenerate criminals that you see in court come from functional families compared to those that come from dis-functional families?
Too busy? Bullying is an example of destructive social behavior.
Sometimes destructive social behavior can have very immediate and deadly effects. Like when someone tapes someone else having sex and then posts it on the Internet resulting in the person caught on film killing themself.
Do you need more examples?
More examples of backpedaling? No, thanks, I think I've seen enough.
So bullying is just as destructive as pollution? You told gomi that destructive social behavior is just as damaging as destructive environmental behavior.
So bullying is just as destructive as pollution? You told gomi that destructive social behavior is just as damaging as destructive environmental behavior.
It pollutes the mind, which pollutes the character, which leads to bad behavior that can hurt society much more than a can of oil spilled on the ground.
It pollutes the mind, which pollutes the character, which leads to bad behavior that can hurt society much more than a can of oil spilled on the ground.
-10 points for ideology in place of argument. Get evidence or GTFO.
It's still not a handout, it is a benefit. It was clearly defined and explained prior to my signing the papers. It's no different than any other benefit offered by an employer to entice you into working for them.
So why can't we have benefits from our society? Be a tax paying, law abiding American, and you can get the benefits of being a citizen in a country that looks out for its own.
Anything less than a functional family is suboptimal and may lead to social problems for the members of said dis-functional family. It's that simple. In that light some of what the social cons say does make sense, they just need to broaden their definition of what constitutes a family.
What does functional family mean? I am not married, nor have much inclination to be so, but I co-habit with my boyfriend, and have a very close support network of people related to me both by blood or by bond. My mom calls to FRC an urban tribe, for all the support of different sorts we give each other. Are we a family? In some ways, I think so. On a greater scale a society is a tribe, a collective that looks out for its own. Would most conservatives help their kin if they were in a hard time? We are just taking the support-giving to a larger level. Basically I think what causes most social harm is merely people being cruel to one another. There are laws to prevent murdering and abuse, but it is impossible to control everything. To whit: I cannot always force someone to stop being a jerk with a law, but I can try to convince people through social conditioning to be nice. Not to be getting personal, but aren't you separated right now? Do you think you hurt society by being so? I think you can still be good for society and have your own kind of non-nuclear family. You seem to care for your little daughter and that is good for society!
Gomi, at what point do govt benefits end and private industry begin? Should the govt give me a house and car so I can go to work? If I don't pay taxes should I still get benefits?
As long as your "family" cares about you and your welfare it is most likely a good and functional family. I say most likely because a family that cares for its own by hurting others is not a good family for society.
Ideally, I think the "Tribe" or the society should make sure people are taken care of at their base levels. They have food, shelter, and don't have to worry about totally dying if they hit rock bottom. However, we should not give them anything more than the basics. I think capitalism is still feasible even in a society where basic needs are accounted for, because people will always want to strive for the good stuff. If you are completely without money, you should be able to eat at a soup kitchen and sleep on a cot in a cubicle. However, would I do this? No, because I want to eat at good restaurants and go on vacations. People will work for stuff they want. There are very few people who merely want to subsist.
If I don't pay taxes should I still get benefits?
If the government said it is okay for you to do this, then I guess it is up to them. However, the people who go bleh, I won't pay taxes because I don't want to pay for other people's schools, etc. should not get any of the benefits of the group. Safety in numbers.
Steve, if you really want to start talking psychology and bullying, I'm going to get riled. Particularly because you, as usual, are wrong and relying on ideology instead of evidence. Trust me when I say, as someone who has studied psychology and bullying specifically, that you're out of your depth and have barely a clue of what you're talking about.
Steve, if you really want to start talking psychology and bullying, I'm going to get riled. Particularly because you, as usual, are wrong and relying on ideology instead of evidence. Trust me when I say, as someone who has studied psychology and bullying specifically, that you're out of your depth and have barely a clue of what you're talking about.
Are you suggesting bullying is or is not a socially destructive activity?
Are you suggesting bullying is or is not a socially destructive activity?
I think he's suggesting that you're uninformed and yet you keep talking anyway... as is the case right now, where you're offering a false dichotomy that is also a red herring. You keep dropping more or less unfounded talking points and never produce any elaboration or evidence no matter how often you're asked.
A loan is never a handout it is a handup. Free stuff is a handout.
What is "free stuff?" We never get anything for free. We pay for our transportation. We would pay for our health care. I am subsidizing you veteran benefits with each paycheck. All this is is collectivization. We all put a little bit in the communal pot so the society can have nice things to all share, like parks, roads, and even you getting help buying a house.
Free stuff is anything you don't pay for. Note I didn't specify anything as being "free stuff"? I merely pointed out that a loan is not a handout.
It's absolutely a handout. You get much better terms than a non-veteran. What did you do to earn that? Hang out at the motor pool for a couple of years?
It's still not a handout, it is a benefit. It was clearly defined and explained prior to my signing the papers. It's no different than any other benefit offered by an employer to entice you into working for them.
It's extremely different. I've never known a private industry employer continue to give an employee a substantial benefit for many years after separation. How much do you think all that VA benefit stuff is worth? Do you really, honestly think you earned it?
Also, you still seem to think that calling it a "benefit" means that it is not a "handout". Many people get social security "benefits", unemployment "benefits", or welfare "benefits". They're all called "benefits". Does that mean that they're not handouts?
Steve, if you really want to start talking psychology and bullying, I'm going to get riled. Particularly because you, as usual, are wrong and relying on ideology instead of evidence. Trust me when I say, as someone who has studied psychology and bullying specifically, that you're out of your depth and have barely a clue of what you're talking about.
Are you suggesting bullying is or is not a socially destructive activity?
He's suggesting that when you say things like this:
Still no answer to what constitutes "destructive social behavior" and why?
Pick up a psychology text book.
as though you're some sort of expert in a field in which you obviously know nothing about, you are very, very annoying.
"All of those veterans, regardless of whether they were in combat, worked at a desk, stacked supplies, or were signalman on a ship we're eligible - it just didn't matter."
Call me a snob, but I hold anything in high regard that is written by someone who messes up the difference between were and we're.
"All of those veterans, regardless of whether they were in combat, worked at a desk, stacked supplies, or were signalman on a ship we're eligible - it just didn't matter."
Call me a snob, but I hold anything in high regard that is written by someone who messes up the difference between were and we're.
Some people have a way with words while other people not have way.
It's extremely different. I've never known a private industry employer continue to give an employee a substantial benefit for many years after separation. How much do you think all that VA benefit stuff is worth? Do you really, honestly think you earned it?
If a private employer put it in the employment contract they would have to honor the contract and continue to provide the benefit.
Never known a private employer to do such a thing? Never looked at some of the executive compensation packages out there? Or do you not consider those people to be 'employees' of a private company? Ever heard of a pension?
Never known a private employer to do such a thing? Never looked at some of the executive compensation packages out there? Or do you not consider those people to be 'employees' of a private company? Ever heard of a pension?
Are you comparing your service in the motor pool to an executive in a corporation? Are you suggesting that private companies award pensions for four years of service performed at the lowest possible level of the company? Do people who work in the mailroom for four years and then leave get executive compensation packages and pensions?
Which gets us back to the initial question that you can't answer What, exactly, did you do to earn these benefits? You weren't doing the same thing a corporate executive does, so don't go comparing yourself to Tony Stark. You were more at the Larry the Cable Guy level, if that. Larry the Cable Guy wouldn't get an executive compensation package or a pension if he left work after four years.
I did the same as every other service member who earned those benefits, I served. That is all that is required.
Served what? Changing oil? Excuse me, but I don't think that my tax dollars should be going to provide benefits for some grease monkey who did a very little bit of work in the early 90s at the lowest possible level of responsibility. Is that the "service" that you're so proud of? Tell me why I should be paying you for that.
Furthermore, if "all that is required" is that you were a warm body in a uniform at some point in your life in order to earn lifetime "benefits", I'd say it sounds pretty much like those "benefits" are a handout.
As a karate expert (and a state employee), I am not so happy to say that I work my ass off for just over minimum wage. I may not get benefits in terms of health and what not, but my income is tax exempt. That's a pretty good benefit for a punk college kid computer grease monkey.
I did the same as every other service member who earned those benefits, I served. That is all that is required.
Served what? Changing oil? Excuse me, but I don't think that my tax dollars should be going to provide benefits for some grease monkey who did a very little bit of work in the early 90s at the lowest possible level of responsibility. Is that the "service" that you're so proud of? Tell me why I should be paying you for that.
Furthermore, if "all that is required" is that you were a warm body in a uniform at some point in your life in order to earn lifetime "benefits", I'd say it sounds pretty much like those "benefits" are a handout.
If you don't like the benefits given to military members call your congressman and complain.
I did the same as every other service member who earned those benefits, I served. That is all that is required.
Served what? Changing oil? Excuse me, but I don't think that my tax dollars should be going to provide benefits for some grease monkey who did a very little bit of work in the early 90s at the lowest possible level of responsibility. Is that the "service" that you're so proud of? Tell me why I should be paying you for that.
Furthermore, if "all that is required" is that you were a warm body in a uniform at some point in your life in order to earn lifetime "benefits", I'd say it sounds pretty much like those "benefits" are a handout.
If you don't like the benefits given to military members call your congressman and complain.
Avoiding the question, as usual. The question is: Explain how your "benefits" were earned as opposed to "benefits" that you have bitched about in the past, such as Welfare Benefits, Social Security Benefits, Unemployment Benefits, The Minimum Wage, and so on. Hint: Merely naming them "benefits" to distinguish them from "handouts" is not the right answer.
What service did you actually perform for mer that obligates me to pay for your good VA Home Loan Rate and all the other VA benefits you enjoy? I'm not willing to pay for all that stuff merely because you were a warm body in a uniform. What distinguishes your "service" from someone who actually contributed to society, then lost her job and now needs welfare?
All you did was change the oil in a few jeeps, so why doesn't Guido from Jiffy Lube stand to recieve benefits for the rest of his life? Guido changed the oil in my car, and as far as I'm concerned, he performed a much greater service to me than you ever did.
It seems like the least you could do in exchange for being a parasite on the public teat for the rest of your life is shut up about others who are lining up for a place at those teats just like you.
I already explained how I earned those benefits, I served. That's all that is required to earn those benefits. If you have a problem with that talk to your congressman.
One could argue that benefits such as basic healthcare are earned by nature of being a citizen, and furthermore are beneficial to all citizens by raising the overall level of health.
One could argue that benefits such as basic healthcare are earned by nature of being a citizen, and furthermore are beneficial to all citizens by raising the overall level of health.
Depends on how you define basic healthcare. Is getting a new heart basic healthcare? Or are you talking about annual exams and immunization shots?
I already explained how I earned those benefits, I served. That's all that is required to earn those benefits. If you have a problem with that talk to your congressman.
Republican Party leaders have vowed to cut non-military federal spending, including veterans benefits, in order to pay for new tax breaks for the very rich and for corporations that move jobs overseas.
Sounds like Steve's been arguing some hard-core democrat principles.
"My feelings on veterans benefits," Cleland continued, responding to the Republican pledge to slash them, "they're all pre-paid. Veterans gave at the office."
"It is the moral obligation of this nation to take care of them," he added. While it is impossible for any government or treasury to replace the years they have sacrificed for their country, or "compensate them for lost time, lost hopes, lost lives or lost limbs," Cleland, a paralyzed veteran of the Vietnam War, said, it is our duty to do our best to care for them.
And the Democrats have lived up to that duty, he said. Since they took the lead in Congress in 2006 and since President Obama was sworn into office, "we have seen the greatest increase in the VA budget since World War II," Cleland pointed out.
One could argue that benefits such as basic healthcare are earned by nature of being a citizen, and furthermore are beneficial to all citizens by raising the overall level of health.
Exactly. If a certain status is all that's required for benefits, why doesn't citizenship confer benefits? Steve didn't do anything but fill a uniform like ten punds of shit in a nine pound bag and he gets benefits. That is all that he claims entitles him to benefits - wearing a certain style of suit for a couple of years. How is that different from conferring benefits on someone who simply wore another style of suit? How is Steve's "service" different from someone who was simply born in the right place at the right time?
Comments
Too busy? Bullying is an example of destructive social behavior.
Sometimes destructive social behavior can have very immediate and deadly effects. Like when someone tapes someone else having sex and then posts it on the Internet resulting in the person caught on film killing them self.
Do you need more examples?
Anything less than a functional family is suboptimal and may lead to social problems for the members of said dis-functional family. It's that simple. In that light some of what the social cons say does make sense, they just need to broaden their definition of what constitutes a family.
I think even Joe has to agree with that statement. Tell us Joe, how many of the degenerate criminals that you see in court come from functional families compared to those that come from dis-functional families?
Sorry, but I don't buy it. Anyone could toss off all sorts of crimes as examples of "destructive social behavior," but you brought it up in the context of social conservatism. Protecting people from intimidation and harassment is not a conservative position; on the contrary, the idea of a shame-based moral society - from whence springs directly the current cause célèbre rash of anti-gay bullying - is a very traditionally conservative idea.
Basically I think what causes most social harm is merely people being cruel to one another. There are laws to prevent murdering and abuse, but it is impossible to control everything. To whit: I cannot always force someone to stop being a jerk with a law, but I can try to convince people through social conditioning to be nice. Not to be getting personal, but aren't you separated right now? Do you think you hurt society by being so? I think you can still be good for society and have your own kind of non-nuclear family. You seem to care for your little daughter and that is good for society!
As long as your "family" cares about you and your welfare it is most likely a good and functional family. I say most likely because a family that cares for its own by hurting others is not a good family for society.
This guy understands the socialist implications of VA benefits. It's extremely different. I've never known a private industry employer continue to give an employee a substantial benefit for many years after separation. How much do you think all that VA benefit stuff is worth? Do you really, honestly think you earned it?
Also, you still seem to think that calling it a "benefit" means that it is not a "handout". Many people get social security "benefits", unemployment "benefits", or welfare "benefits". They're all called "benefits". Does that mean that they're not handouts? He's suggesting that when you say things like this: as though you're some sort of expert in a field in which you obviously know nothing about, you are very, very annoying.
"All of those veterans, regardless of whether they were in combat, worked at a desk, stacked supplies, or were signalman on a ship we're eligible - it just didn't matter."
Call me a snob, but I hold anything in high regard that is written by someone who messes up the difference between were and we're.
Never known a private employer to do such a thing? Never looked at some of the executive compensation packages out there? Or do you not consider those people to be 'employees' of a private company? Ever heard of a pension?
Which gets us back to the initial question that you can't answer What, exactly, did you do to earn these benefits? You weren't doing the same thing a corporate executive does, so don't go comparing yourself to Tony Stark. You were more at the Larry the Cable Guy level, if that. Larry the Cable Guy wouldn't get an executive compensation package or a pension if he left work after four years.
Furthermore, if "all that is required" is that you were a warm body in a uniform at some point in your life in order to earn lifetime "benefits", I'd say it sounds pretty much like those "benefits" are a handout.
Just my two-cents.
What service did you actually perform for mer that obligates me to pay for your good VA Home Loan Rate and all the other VA benefits you enjoy? I'm not willing to pay for all that stuff merely because you were a warm body in a uniform. What distinguishes your "service" from someone who actually contributed to society, then lost her job and now needs welfare?
All you did was change the oil in a few jeeps, so why doesn't Guido from Jiffy Lube stand to recieve benefits for the rest of his life? Guido changed the oil in my car, and as far as I'm concerned, he performed a much greater service to me than you ever did.
It seems like the least you could do in exchange for being a parasite on the public teat for the rest of your life is shut up about others who are lining up for a place at those teats just like you.