I have to say, you have to make those classes as fluid as possible and make it very easy for a child to move up the ranks, even letting lower rank students move to higher rank classes with little resistance other then to make sure they are at least caught up (core knowledge wise) to the higher level students. Being stuck in the mid to low level classes as someone who wants to achieve can be VERY damaging. The other issue was I ended up screwed academically because I rose through the levels as the grades went on. Started in the mid range by high school and ended in AP classes but that seriously hurt my GPA and other things that were weighted.
Also sucked to not be considered Gifted because they one tested me back when I couldn't see or hear.....Was offered testing in mid high school but I was already hanging in the enrichment area getting all the benefits with none of the disadvantages. (playing Star Control II baby!)
Everyone deserves an education that will push them to be the best they can be. This needs to be done whatever the cost.
OK, so the cost of educating a special needs child is your ability to excel.
Public education needs to be give-and-take. We give you some opportunity to direct your own course, but also mandate certain levels of integration. Or do you really think that integrating special needs students has no benefit for those students?
I rose through the levels on a year by year basis, and actually missed things that I would have learned by either staying in a lower class (and learned the next year) or if I had been in the higher class the year before. To this day, I've never been taught long division.
The cost of special-needs children does indeed exceed that of normal kids. This is because often they need additional staff to assist them. There is also a VERY high turnover rate with staff who work with special needs children, particularly if they work exclusively with that group. Remember, special needs isn't just the kids who are a little slow, or who have mental retardation, or autism, or something else like that. Sometimes they have disorders that are both more subtle, and way, way worse. Like ODD. ODD to a layman is basically the most intentionally disrespectful, vulgar, obnoxious kid you can imagine. But they're like that all the time. They will do things just to get you to tell them "Hey, don't stab yourself in the eye with that fork.", just so they can then stab themselves in the eye with said fork because defying you gets them high. Try teaching that kid for a while. A private school will throw a kid like that out in two seconds. Public schools MUST find a way to educate that child, or the entire institution suffers (largely thanks to NCLB).
Back when I worked in a day camp, I was often put in charge of a kid named Andy. Andy had ADHD and ODD; he also had a mother who spoiled the everloving crap out of him. I was the only person who could work with him at all, and when I worked with him, he was the only kid I was assigned that day. Those days were easily the most draining of all, even the days when we had to call Social Services to report a dangerous home situation.
The level of patience it takes to deal with a kid like that is superhuman. I still don't know how I did it.
Public education needs to be give-and-take. We give you some opportunity to direct your own course, but also mandate certain levels of integration. Or do you really think that integrating special needs students has no benefit for those students?
Think of it like trying to escape from a burning building. If you try to help the slow old grandpa, your both going to go down in flames. It's just the cruel and sad truth of reality that you just have to stare in the face and accept no matter how ugly it is. The right thing to do is to at least save your own skin, to decrease the damage as much as possible. If we force everyone to wait for grandpa, we might be able to carry him closer to the exit than he would have gotten on his own, but we'll still won't make it with the burden of his extra weight.
Perhaps it also teaches you patience and compassion.
It's not about patience. It feels like being chained to something that impedes your movement. It's hard to be patient with that, especially when it is not necessary. My sister was really advanced in math in elementary school and she was perfectly behaved at school but when she got home all her frustration would come pouring out. I felt the same way. I would feel more compassion for the slower learners if I did not feel, as a child, that they were hurting my enjoyment of school.
Perhaps it also teaches you patience and compassion.
It's not about patience. It feels like being chained to something that impedes your movement. It's hard to be patient with that, especially when it is not necessary. My sister was really advanced in math in elementary school and she was perfectly behaved at school but when she got home all her frustration would come pouring out. I felt the same way. I would feel more compassion for the slower learners if I did not feel, as a child, that they were hurting my enjoyment of school.
You're speaking as though I don't understand. I was the guy who sat with a novel in my lap from second grade on, surreptitiously reading while others caught up to what I grasped immediately. I know what you're talking about. I was frustrated too. I was disgusted.
But you know what? I learned that it isn't always about me. I wasn't always the most important thing in that classroom. So I used that time to learn on my own.
If you try to help the slow old grandpa, your both going to go down in flames.
Right, because nobody has ever successfully helped another person ever.
And integrating a classroom doesn't mean you "carry" other students. It means you push them to excel. And yes, it's worth it. Think about how much of your world is messed up by stupid people. Maybe if we stopped leaving stupid people behind, they wouldn't mess up our world so much.
You're speaking as though I don't understand. I was the guy who sat with a novel in my lap from second grade on, surreptitiously reading while others caught up to what I grasped immediately. I know what you're talking about. I was frustrated too. I was disgusted.
But you know what? I learned that it isn't always about me. I wasn't always the most important thing in that classroom. So I used that time to learn on my own.
And this is the important part. A smart kid will learn on their own. And a good teacher will still be able to challenge the smart students while catering to the slow ones. It takes good teachers and smaller classrooms, but it can work. No, you won't get the entire challenge that you could, but it'll be enough, and you'll get other, more directed challenges in other classes.
And I don't mean do this in every class. You need to do some integration and some tailoring.
But you know what? I learned that it isn't always about me. I wasn't always the most important thing in that classroom. So I used that time to learn on my own.
If they would have let me learn on my own, I would have been thrilled. The point is that I, and I imagine most, are forced to participate. Forced to spend time doing pointless menial homeworks. Forced to pay attention to lessons I already understood. Forced to not goof off. Forced not to do things with the computers that weren't permitted. Reading a book during a class would have gotten me a punishment.
I say let them interact at recess. And fuck the schools that took away recess. Recess needs to be double length. Most valuable part of the day.
Think about how much of your world is messed up by stupid people. Maybe if we stopped leaving stupid people behind, they wouldn't mess up our world so much.
Think about why we have so many stupid people. Even other countries which have a lower percentage of stupid people and better education systems are still mostly filled with stupid people. There's no stopping the stupid. If someone has a low maximum potential, and they don't achieve it, the loss to society is less than if someone with a high maximum potential is not maximized.
Two people. One of them has max 10 and the other has max 5. You have 12 points to distribute between them. What do you do? You can do 6 and 5, but I would do something more like 9 and 3. You know D&D.; More levels is more powerful than more characters. One high level guy can take on a whole bunch of low level guys.
Right now the other countries of the world are producing a lot more top mathematicians, scientists, and technologists. Most of them are using our colleges and universities, but their own high schools. Meanwhile our kids are dropping out of our own colleges and universities because they can't hack it. If the US wants to compete with the rest of the world, we need high level wizards. If that means that some potentially medium level wizards will be low level wizards, it will still be better for the society as a whole. If we don't have enough epic level people, we'll all be destroyed.
If that means that some potentially medium level wizards will be low level wizards, it will still be better for the society as a whole. If we don't have enough epic level people, we'll all be destroyed.
I don't know having 30 fireballs is better then one meteor swarm :-p
You know D&D.; More levels is more powerful than more characters.
Yes I do, and your analogy is flawed because of that. Look at it from the other side: a single monster with an ECL 12 is less of a challenge than 12 monsters whose total ECL is 12. This is because every monster can only do so many things. The rest of your analogy is similarly flawed.
Likewise, being the smartest person on earth is worthless because you only have so much time in a day. You only live so long. Things take a certain amount of time to do. And no, other people are not holding you back. That's the convenient excuse. The truth is, things take a certain time because of physical limitations which we cannot yet overcome. That's it. Every now and again, someone gets in your way, but that's far more rare than we make it out to be.
So instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, you diversify, because that's how you thrive. Look at biology. How many really huge creatures are out there? Not many. Populations survive because they are distributed and numerous.
Two people. One of them has max 10 and the other has max 5. You have 12 points to distribute between them. What do you do? You can do 6 and 5, but I would do something more like 9 and 3.
Burning Wheel. You have 16 points in your physical pool. One guy does all 4's. One guy does 2's and 6's. Which one is more useful?
Or, put another way: you are not as useful to the world as you think you are. No, one guy doesn't make all the difference. No scientific breakthroughs happen because of one guy. Shoulders of giants and all that. Having a well-educated support network is worthwhile.
But don't take my word for it. I'm just a public health scientist with a team of well-trained budding microbiologists into whom I have invested considerable training and educational effort. Clearly, I should just fire all the help and focus all of my resources on me.
I rose through the levels on a year by year basis, and actually missed things that I would have learned by either staying in a lower class (and learned the next year) or if I had been in the higher class the year before. To this day, I've never been taught long division.
Long division was the most challenging thing I ever learned (relatively speaking), it brought me to tears.
You're speaking as though I don't understand. I was the guy who sat with a novel in my lap from second grade on, surreptitiously reading while others caught up to what I grasped immediately. I know what you're talking about. I was frustrated too. I was disgusted.
But you know what? I learned that it isn't always about me. I wasn't always the most important thing in that classroom. So I used that time to learn on my own.
But doesn't it make you feel the pointlessness of the whole exercise? I just wish there were a way for everyone to learn at their own pace but still interact with each other.
You're speaking as though I don't understand. I was the guy who sat with a novel in my lap from second grade on, surreptitiously reading while others caught up to what I grasped immediately. I know what you're talking about. I was frustrated too. I was disgusted.
But you know what? I learned that it isn't always about me. I wasn't always the most important thing in that classroom. So I used that time to learn on my own.
But doesn't it make you feel the pointlessness of the whole exercise? I just wish there were a way for everyone to learn at their own pace but still interact with each other.
There is a way to do that - it is hella expensive and requires very small class sizes.
But you know what? I learned that it isn't always about me. I wasn't always the most important thing in that classroom. So I used that time to learn on my own.
This.
Reading and listening to Scott sometimes reminds me of reading Atlas Shrugged. This isn't a good thing.
I have a very clear memory of their being separate reading groups. I also remember there being a period of the day when the smart kids would go to a separate room and do awesome smart things, but it happened very very few times.
Me too. I was reading at a college level in first grade, so I'd finish assigned reading in about 10 minutes and then break out a scifi or fantasy novel from home (sometimes my dad's, like Dune or The Hobbit, or sometimes a kid's book that was still beyond my level). I was on a gifted track (along with a handful of other kids) for my entire grade school career. For a couple hours a day, I'd go do smart kid stuff. This became Advanced Reading and English for two hours daily in middle school; we'd learn etymological roots for our vocab program (imagine: the other kids saw maybe 500 new words in their vocab program, and we learned how to identify something like hundreds of thousands) and read the classics as well as YA stuff that was still far beyond the level of the other middle schoolers. My teacher was an awesome geek who I'm friends with to this day; as part of a program she was piloting I got to DM a narrativist RPG with the aim of helping kids develop creative writing skills. For another project, we each picked a fantasy series to read and make a board game about, along with a presentation on fantasy motifs present in the stories. I justified the Dune series as fantasy because of the presence of sacred weapons and mystical powers, and she agreed to it. It was all quite awesome.
In my other classes, I tore through the readings and finished taking notes, and when it got too stagnant I'd just start reading a book. I could get through a couple per week, maybe more. Still pulled straight A's. However, the removal from "normal" classes, did incredible things for me. I learned to treasure academia and erudite pursuits for the sake of pleasure and made my first set of friends who were true intellectual equals.
I went to a high school at a Catholic college prep school where most people were on my level or, occasionally, sharper than me. Some were not. It was run by Jesuits. Big on liberal learning, light on dogmatic religious teaching. I made sure to pick classes there that were intellectually stimulating and that ensured that I would only be with people on or above my level. When I wasn't, I'd read novels through my classes and get homework done before I went home.
Class segregation by intellectual capacity helped me learn more than I ever would have without it.
For a couple hours a day, I'd go do smart kid stuff.
This. A hundred thousand times this. I got to do this with more advanced math for about 2-3 years in elementary school before the school dropped it- My best memories of elementary were when I got to go off and do stuff that was actually kinda challenging. Of course, then my school stopped, and I had to stay in class with the... less smart people for another 5 years.
I'll say Irondequoit High School is a great example of a high school (especially for being in the 3rd-poorest suburb of Rochester), but fuck that district for not accelerating until eighth grade. I know people whose schools had taught them a year of calculus by sophomore year, while I was stuck in stupid classes.
Also, I generally had 2-3 books confiscated at any given time in 6th grade, because I read in history class instead of paying attention. Got straight As anyways, though.
I have an interesting tidbit to throw into this discussion.
So, I went to Catholic school my whole life, with the exception of one program I took at a public school when I was in 3rd grade. After passing a test, I was admitted into this program for what was basically accelerated learning. At least, that's what I thought it was for at the time. Some fifteen years later I find out that the test was to see if I was mentally handicapped since I couldn't focus on school, and the program was designed to help with that. Turns out that I was quite the opposite, well above average for my grade level, and the reason I couldn't focus was because there was no challenge.
Anyway, regardless of the reason, that one program I took in public school (which was every Wednesday for the whole day) was absolutely fascinating to me because, in retrospect, it really was a public school trying to segregate out kids who needed school to challenge them more, and the program did. I learned basic algebra in that class. My normal school didn't get to pre-algebra until 8th grade (also funny because I took real algebra during that grade, effectively setting me apart from everyone else in my class).
What I should also mention about this program is that the year I took it was it's only year. After just one year of trying the school district shut it down because they felt that putting some kids above others was a bad idea.
So my point in this is that, if my teachers and parents early on hadn't allowed me to stretch beyond what my peers were doing, I wouldn't be nearly as good at what I do as I am. My views are pretty much in line with Scott's on this one. As the saying goes, 20% of the people already do 80% of the work. I say we make that 20% the best they fucking can be, so that the 80% just keeps on getting better.
Comments
Also sucked to not be considered Gifted because they one tested me back when I couldn't see or hear.....Was offered testing in mid high school but I was already hanging in the enrichment area getting all the benefits with none of the disadvantages. (playing Star Control II baby!)
Public education needs to be give-and-take. We give you some opportunity to direct your own course, but also mandate certain levels of integration. Or do you really think that integrating special needs students has no benefit for those students?
The level of patience it takes to deal with a kid like that is superhuman. I still don't know how I did it.
But you know what? I learned that it isn't always about me. I wasn't always the most important thing in that classroom. So I used that time to learn on my own.
And integrating a classroom doesn't mean you "carry" other students. It means you push them to excel. And yes, it's worth it. Think about how much of your world is messed up by stupid people. Maybe if we stopped leaving stupid people behind, they wouldn't mess up our world so much. And this is the important part. A smart kid will learn on their own. And a good teacher will still be able to challenge the smart students while catering to the slow ones. It takes good teachers and smaller classrooms, but it can work. No, you won't get the entire challenge that you could, but it'll be enough, and you'll get other, more directed challenges in other classes.
And I don't mean do this in every class. You need to do some integration and some tailoring.
I say let them interact at recess. And fuck the schools that took away recess. Recess needs to be double length. Most valuable part of the day.
Two people. One of them has max 10 and the other has max 5. You have 12 points to distribute between them. What do you do? You can do 6 and 5, but I would do something more like 9 and 3. You know D&D.; More levels is more powerful than more characters. One high level guy can take on a whole bunch of low level guys.
Right now the other countries of the world are producing a lot more top mathematicians, scientists, and technologists. Most of them are using our colleges and universities, but their own high schools. Meanwhile our kids are dropping out of our own colleges and universities because they can't hack it. If the US wants to compete with the rest of the world, we need high level wizards. If that means that some potentially medium level wizards will be low level wizards, it will still be better for the society as a whole. If we don't have enough epic level people, we'll all be destroyed.
Likewise, being the smartest person on earth is worthless because you only have so much time in a day. You only live so long. Things take a certain amount of time to do. And no, other people are not holding you back. That's the convenient excuse. The truth is, things take a certain time because of physical limitations which we cannot yet overcome. That's it. Every now and again, someone gets in your way, but that's far more rare than we make it out to be.
So instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, you diversify, because that's how you thrive. Look at biology. How many really huge creatures are out there? Not many. Populations survive because they are distributed and numerous. Burning Wheel. You have 16 points in your physical pool. One guy does all 4's. One guy does 2's and 6's. Which one is more useful?
Or, put another way: you are not as useful to the world as you think you are. No, one guy doesn't make all the difference. No scientific breakthroughs happen because of one guy. Shoulders of giants and all that. Having a well-educated support network is worthwhile.
But don't take my word for it. I'm just a public health scientist with a team of well-trained budding microbiologists into whom I have invested considerable training and educational effort. Clearly, I should just fire all the help and focus all of my resources on me.
What Pete said.
Reading and listening to Scott sometimes reminds me of reading Atlas Shrugged. This isn't a good thing.
In my other classes, I tore through the readings and finished taking notes, and when it got too stagnant I'd just start reading a book. I could get through a couple per week, maybe more. Still pulled straight A's. However, the removal from "normal" classes, did incredible things for me. I learned to treasure academia and erudite pursuits for the sake of pleasure and made my first set of friends who were true intellectual equals.
I went to a high school at a Catholic college prep school where most people were on my level or, occasionally, sharper than me. Some were not. It was run by Jesuits. Big on liberal learning, light on dogmatic religious teaching. I made sure to pick classes there that were intellectually stimulating and that ensured that I would only be with people on or above my level. When I wasn't, I'd read novels through my classes and get homework done before I went home.
Class segregation by intellectual capacity helped me learn more than I ever would have without it.
I got to do this with more advanced math for about 2-3 years in elementary school before the school dropped it- My best memories of elementary were when I got to go off and do stuff that was actually kinda challenging.
Of course, then my school stopped, and I had to stay in class with the... less smart people for another 5 years.
I'll say Irondequoit High School is a great example of a high school (especially for being in the 3rd-poorest suburb of Rochester), but fuck that district for not accelerating until eighth grade. I know people whose schools had taught them a year of calculus by sophomore year, while I was stuck in stupid classes.
Also, I generally had 2-3 books confiscated at any given time in 6th grade, because I read in history class instead of paying attention. Got straight As anyways, though.
So, I went to Catholic school my whole life, with the exception of one program I took at a public school when I was in 3rd grade. After passing a test, I was admitted into this program for what was basically accelerated learning. At least, that's what I thought it was for at the time. Some fifteen years later I find out that the test was to see if I was mentally handicapped since I couldn't focus on school, and the program was designed to help with that. Turns out that I was quite the opposite, well above average for my grade level, and the reason I couldn't focus was because there was no challenge.
Anyway, regardless of the reason, that one program I took in public school (which was every Wednesday for the whole day) was absolutely fascinating to me because, in retrospect, it really was a public school trying to segregate out kids who needed school to challenge them more, and the program did. I learned basic algebra in that class. My normal school didn't get to pre-algebra until 8th grade (also funny because I took real algebra during that grade, effectively setting me apart from everyone else in my class).
What I should also mention about this program is that the year I took it was it's only year. After just one year of trying the school district shut it down because they felt that putting some kids above others was a bad idea.
So my point in this is that, if my teachers and parents early on hadn't allowed me to stretch beyond what my peers were doing, I wouldn't be nearly as good at what I do as I am. My views are pretty much in line with Scott's on this one. As the saying goes, 20% of the people already do 80% of the work. I say we make that 20% the best they fucking can be, so that the 80% just keeps on getting better.