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The Mouse/Keyboard vs. Gamepad Debate

edited November 2009 in Video Games
Everywhere we go we always hear the debate over mouse/keyboard vs. gamepad, especially when it comes to FPS games. The PC gamers always wonder how on earth gamepad players could ever choose analog sticks over the precision of a mouse. I wonder though if PC gamers have ever considered that it is not the mouse that gamepad users dislike, but instead the keyboard.

In my opinion the keyboard is an incredibly clunky and unevolved piece of hardware when it comes to gaming. I agree that the mouse wins in the percision department every time, but how do you feel about just the keyboard vs. gamepad debate? Which do you prefer and why? For me the gamepad just feels better.
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Comments

  • edited November 2009
    But the keyboard is just the same as the buttons on a controller.. just more buttons.

    If you want, you could get one of those fancy moulded ergonomic thingamaboobs that you grip in your hand if you are having trouble. What kind of keyboard are you currently using?

    I still love my PS/2 MS Ergonomic keyboard.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • but how do you feel about just the keyboard vs. gamepad debate? Which do you prefer and why? For me the gamepad just feels better.
    There IS no "keyboard vs. gamepad" debate. The debate is "mouse and keyboard vs. gamepad" for a reason. "Keyboard only" is only useful for very specific types of games, none of which are coming to mind at the moment. This is a pretty silly argument to try to have. :)
  • I tend to perfer the controller because of the way it is held and it's size relative to the keyboard.
  • RymRym
    edited November 2009
    The PC gamers always wonder how on earth gamepad players could ever choose analog sticks over the precision of a mouse.
    Simple. The games require less precision, so it doesn't affect them significantly in the scope of said games.
    In my opinion the keyboard is an incredibly clunky and unevolved piece of hardware when it comes to gaming.
    Even for a text adventure?

    The keyboard is sub-optimal. You can easily buy dedicated keypads that serve the same purpose much better. I don't only because I am already used to the keyboard, but there's no real reason for anyone else not to. It's certainly not a factor in the "debate."

    That aside, the gamepad precludes certain kinds of complexity, making certain kinds of FPSs impossible. The gamepad, while otherwise nice, precludes a mouse, and is therefore entirely inadequate to any precision FPS.

    If you're broadening this to include non-FPS games, then it's a silly argument. Some games need it. Some games don't. Some games require specialized hardware (DDR). No one in the world advocates using a keyboard over a gamepad if you exclude the mouse issue.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • edited November 2009
    The gamepad does not even come close to the number of inputs I require to play my more complicated games. Every once and a while I will plug in my 360 controller for specific games (flight/mech sims most often), but I always require a keyboard for various reasons.
    The PC gamers always wonder how on earth gamepad players could ever choose analog sticks over the precision of a mouse.
    Simple. The games require less precision, so it doesn't affect them significantly in the scope of said games.
    Also, consoles have auto/sticky aim.
    Post edited by Andrew on
  • edited November 2009
    I think if someone took the Wii-mote to the next level and added a few more strategically placed buttons I would have my happy medium.
    Post edited by zombie a gogo on
  • I think if someone took the Wii-mote to the next level and added a few more strategically placed buttons
    A mouse provides more fine motor control due to the planar restraint than a freely-held object ever could. Also, the buttons on the device would impact your precision if used.
  • I think if someone took the Wii-mote to the next level and added a few more strategically placed buttons
    A mouse provides more fine motor control due to the planar restraint than a freely-held object ever could. Also, the buttons on the device would impact your precision if used.
    Unless there was an attachment held in the off hand used as a trigger.
  • The day they let me game with a mouse and keyboard on my xbox is the day I stop PC gaming (most likely.)
  • edited November 2009
    The day they let me game with a mouse and keyboard on my xbox is the day I stop PC gaming (most likely.)
    There's a third party adapter that will convert for you but you'd probably just get banned due to the fact you'd suddenly own the balls off all the other players.

    I also strongly dislike the whole Xbox section of Microsoft so I can't really see it replacing the PC any time soon.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • The day they let me game with a mouse and keyboard on my xbox is the day I stop PC gaming (most likely.)
    I don't think that's the issue at all. If an FPS is designed for the gamepad then I have no problem with using the it, but since it is restricted in complexity and precision any game with designed with it in mind can only be so complex. You're never going to get the equivalent of Tribes 2 or even Natural Selection on a console; that's why PC gaming would have it's place even if you did get a keyboard for your Xbox.
  • The mouse, at least the pointing part of it, is a two-axis analog input. However, those analog inputs are effectively unlimited.
    The analog stick is obviously a two-axis analog input, but it is limited. You can only push the stick so far.
    The keyboard, mouse buttons, are digital inputs. They are either on or off.

    The reason a mouse and keyboard are better for fpses especially is because the mouse as an aiming device is effectively unlimited in its analogness. Thus you can instantly aim at any point on the screen, and are not limited in the speed in which you can shift aim. You can also aim more precisely as the mouse is a more subtle device than the stick.

    Also, as has been stated, the keyboard has so many buttons that it allows for much more complex interactions. Sure, for a game like Portal, the XBox 360 controller has enough buttons. But even a game like Newerth is too complex for a gamepad. Don't even think about playing a game like X-Com or Weapons Factory without the sheer quantity of buttons available on a keyboard.

    However, there is one thing that is overlooked. When playing an fps on a console, you control your movement with an analog stick. While more limited than the mouse, it is not as limited as four keyboard buttons. Using the analog stick to control movement, you can have finer control of movement speed than you can with four buttons that are either on or off. Also, because movement speed is limited in-game, where as aiming speed is not, an analog stick is a perfect input for movement as it has the same limit built-in to itself.

    So the perfect fps controller would be a mouse and a keyboard that has an analog stick in it.
  • edited November 2009
    The reason a mouse and keyboard are better for fpses especially is because the mouse as an aiming device is effectively unlimited in its analogness. Thus you can instantly aim at any point on the screen, and are not limited in the speed in which you can shift aim.
    Not quite. If you're using a relatively normal optical or laser mouse and move it faster than 1m/s or so, you lose perfect control. See here.
    Also, as has been stated, the keyboard has so many buttons that it allows for much more complex interactions. Sure, for a game like Portal, the XBox 360 controller has enough buttons. But even a game like Newerth is too complex for a gamepad. Don't even think about playing a game like X-Com or Weapons Factory without the sheer quantity of buttons available on a keyboard.
    Sure, but your standard keyboard isn't the most optimal way to arrange a whole bunch of buttons for easy access with a human hand. Though it wouldn't be significantly better, I'd say one of these still rates slightly above a keyboard with regards to placing many buttons for easy access.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • One of the root causes for the difference between console and PC FPS games is that, for many years, the FPS was designed around the PC.
  • Not quite. If you're using a relatively normal optical or laser mouse and move it faster than 1m/s or so, you lose perfect control. Seehere.
    yes, this is why gaming mice exist, but even then it's a relatively insignificant problem. Remember that graph is showing where you lose 100% perfect control. You still probably have a very very high level of control beyond the graph, just not 100%.

    Also, because mice have adjustable sensitivity settings, you can avoid the problem entirely. With a higher sensitivity/acceleration setting, you can make it so a very small, and perfect, movement of the mouse, spins you around 360 degrees in your fps of choice. Thus, you can maintain perfect control and a full range of motion without ever having to move the mouse faster than 1m/s.

    As for the keyboard being sub-optimal for hands, that's not really a problem. Sure, those keyboard-hand things are ok I guess. But I've never had discomfort or lack of access to buttons on the keyboard, not even my Happy Hacking Keyboard which is missing many buttons. It doesn't even have a numpad. I can easily, comfortably, and one-handedly, access all buttons on the keyboard without looking. I fail to see a significant reason to use one of those things.
  • This reminds me, I should really get a new mouse.
  • edited November 2009
    yes, this is why gaming mice exist, but even then it's a relatively insignificant problem. Remember that graph is showing where you lose 100% perfect control. You still probably have a very very high level of control beyond the graph, just not 100%.
    Unfortunately, this is not at all true. See this page for the actual response graph of an individual mouse. Past 0.8m/s, the mouse's data rate becomes saturated, and it behaves as though you were moving it at only 0.8m/s, which is useless. Past 1.9m/s, it totally flips out. For comparison, this is the graph for the Razer DeathAdder.
    Also, because mice have adjustable sensitivity settings, you can avoid the problem entirely. With a higher sensitivity/acceleration setting, you can make it so a very small, and perfect, movement of the mouse, spins you around 360 degrees in your fps of choice. Thus, you can maintain perfect control and a full range of motion without ever having to move the mouse faster than 1m/s.
    It's true that high sensitivity means you no longer need high mouse velocity. However, high sensitivity can adversely impact your ability to make small, precise on-screen movements, which can really suck when you need to make a long-range shot.
    As for the keyboard being sub-optimal for hands, that's not really a problem. Sure, those keyboard-hand things are ok I guess. But I've never had discomfort or lack of access to buttons on the keyboard, not even my Happy Hacking Keyboard which is missing many buttons. It doesn't even have a numpad. I can easily, comfortably, and one-handedly, access all buttons on the keyboard without looking. I fail to see a significant reason to use one of those things.
    I agree; it's just that you originally put the keyboard forth as "perfect" when there are many better ways to position lots of buttons.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • It's true that high sensitivity means you no longer need high mouse velocity. However, high sensitivity can adversely impact your ability to make small, precise on-screen movements, which can really suck when you need to make a long-range shot.
    This is true, but personally I can very precisely move the mouse very very small amounts. I'm sure professional gamers can do better. Even if mice did not have this problem, it would still be a problem. High mouse sensitivity means you need to have the skill of precision manual dexterity. Low sensitivity means you need to have the skill of precision high velocity movements. Middle mouse sensitivity you need a bit of both. Even with the best mouse in the world, old geezers still won't be able to aim for shit.
    I agree; it's just that you originally put the keyboard forth as "perfect" when there are many better ways to position lots of buttons.
    It's perfect in that the buttons are either perfectly on or off, if not broken.
  • It's true that high sensitivity means you no longer need high mouse velocity. However, high sensitivity can adversely impact your ability to make small, precise on-screen movements, which can really suck when you need to make a long-range shot.
    This is true, but personally I can very precisely move the mouse very very small amounts. I'm sure professional gamers can do better. Even if mice did not have this problem, it would still be a problem. High mouse sensitivity means you need to have the skill of precision manual dexterity. Low sensitivity means you need to have the skill of precision high velocity movements. Middle mouse sensitivity you need a bit of both. Even with the best mouse in the world, old geezers still won't be able to aim for shit.
    I agree; it's just that you originally put the keyboard forth as "perfect" when there are many better ways to position lots of buttons.
    It's perfect in that the buttons are either perfectly on or off, if not broken.
    I agree. I can make perfect movements no matter how precise and I have a 2000+ DPi mouse.
  • It would cost less to just buy the PC version of Blops.
  • edited December 2010
    Why is the halo reticule off-center? It really pisses me off in a sort of OCD matter. I really want to recenter that reticule badly.
    Post edited by Nine Boomer on
  • You might not notice it as much when playing it on a TV.
  • Merry Christmas, Scott!
    It doesn't matter because while it solves some problems, it doesn't solve all problems. As we've said many times before, because the game is programmed for a gamepad only, it won't be the same.

    For example, if I move my mouse a few inches to the left on a PC shooter, I will spin around 1080 degrees, or even more. If my character is at the center of a sphere, I can aim at any spot on the interior of that sphere instantly.

    Even with a mouse, if the game is expecting a gamepad, that I can't even rotate 90 degrees. Moving the mouse to the right will be translated into holding the analog stick all the way to the right. The game will then rotate me slowly to the right at the maximum speed of rotation which is hard coded into that particular game.
  • Wow, the gamepad look mechanic in console FPSes is bizarrely complex.
  • I've got a new mouse. It's an off brand chinese thing, but it's got adjustable DPI and feels really nice in my hand.
  • It's a ... chinese thing, but it ... feels really nice in my hand
  • It doesn't matter because while it solves some problems, it doesn't solve all problems. As we've said many times before, because the game is programmed for a gamepad only, it won't be the same.

    For example, if I move my mouse a few inches to the left on a PC shooter, I will spin around 1080 degrees, or even more. If my character is at the center of a sphere, I can aim at any spot on the interior of that sphere instantly.

    Even with a mouse, if the game is expecting a gamepad, that I can't even rotate 90 degrees. Moving the mouse to the right will be translated into holding the analog stick all the way to the right. The game will then rotate me slowly to the right at the maximum speed of rotation which is hard coded into that particular game.
    Here, watch a gameplay demonstration instead of a "Oh, check out the precision of my device" video.

    More videos available here.
  • Here, watch a gameplay demonstration instead of a "Oh, check out the precision of my device" video.
    Looks to me like maybe that game has adjustable sensitivity settings and they are cranked way up.

    Also, notice how he's owning. I hope he doesn't get banned from XBL for cheating.
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