In this case, giving what we've seen of Asgard, it makes sense. But oftentimes it's just sort of thrown in there to remind you that this dude is bad, yo.
If I'm an intergalatic, all-conquering force, I'd probably hold all of humanity in equal contempt.
If I'm an intergalatic, all-conquering force, I'd probably hold all of humanity in equal contempt.
But see, that's why it was actually important for Loki's characterization.
Thanos is an all-conquering force that hates with equal measure. Loki, however, is petty and petulant. He hates you. It's a reflection of an angsty character - he lashes out at people on a deeply personal level. And it also shows that he is not a god - a god would never become so personally embroiled in their conflicts with lesser beings.
It also makes him more malevolent. "Kneel before me" is egotistical and power-hungry, but "I will make your boyfriend torture you, you whining cunt" is so thoroughly malevolent that it makes the character loathsome.
Never try to argue that a sexist thing isn't sexists when it is sexist. Especially dont use the "it makes sense for the charactor" line in a movie as vapid as the avengers. It added nothing to the charactor, it was a bad call by Whedon. If he'd called banner an emo faggot there wouldn't be an arguement.
I don't even consider that misogyny. He hates Black Widow, but not because she's a woman. He hates every fiber of her being. And every fiber of everyone else's being.
And if he called Banner an "emo faggot," I'd think he was being juvenile, not homophobic.
It isn't about Loki being a sexist, its about the writers being lazy and just throwing a casual sexist hand grenade over the fence with no thought or care. It isn't even consistent with the conversation up to that point; he goes after her by calling her a stone cold butcher (which is revealed actually got to her since she uses the same "red ink" metaphore explaining her change of heart to Hawkeye) and then ends by calling her a weak weepy vagina.
I'm not saying Whedon went full Zack Snyder (oooh, I still hate Sucker Punch so much), but the movie is still not perfect on the sexism front (why do female S.H.E.I.L.D agents have high heels as part of their uniform?).
Having sexist or homophobic characters shouldn't be taboo, but the subjects should still be handled thoughtfully when they're brought up; they are bad things that make real people's lives worse everyday. People you and I care about had basic qualities of their being attacked for the sake of an esoteric zinger from a comic book mischief god and I don't think it was worth it.
Things like sexism, rape, homophobia, racism, etc being normalized is harmful. I'm guilty of it myself; it took my a long time to come around and realize that the people who were hating on the dickwolves in that Penny Arcade comic had a point, I used "gay" and "jew" as a pajoritive thoughtlessly into my mid-twenties. It's the kind of deeply ingrained social ill that only gets better when people are called out on it.
The urge to write a page-long response on why you are still not getting this is really, really hard to fight right now. Suffice it to say that when a villain does something bad, you are not normalizing that thing. When The Joker kills a man with a fucking pencil, you don't normalize murder anymore than you normalize sexism with Loki, or racism with Travis Bickle.
You say it's not worth it. If you knew anything about writing a script, you would know that it is worth anything to say what you want to say; bringing something to life onstage or onscreen is like raising a child. Your pathetic fetters only serve to stunt artistic expression in the same way that Irish Catholic censors did when they cut huge portions out of Joyce's Ulysses. The fact of the matter is that, by virtue of making you uncomfortable enough to discuss this, Whedon's characterization worked. Obviously you dislike that villain's manner on a very primal level, to the point where you'd like to get meta and alter the work itself so you're not uncomfortable. Whedon wins.
Unrustle your jimmies and read some books on literary theory sometime.
It isn't about Loki being a sexist, its about the writers being lazy and just throwing a casual sexist hand grenade over the fence with no thought or care. It isn't even consistent with the conversation up to that point; he goes after her by calling her a stone cold butcher (which is revealed actually got to her since she uses the same "red ink" metaphore explaining her change of heart to Hawkeye) and then ends by calling her a weak weepy vagina.
I'm not saying Whedon went full Zack Snyder (oooh, I still hate Sucker Punch so much), but the movie is still not perfect on the sexism front (why do female S.H.E.I.L.D agents have high heels as part of their uniform?).
Having sexist or homophobic characters shouldn't be taboo, but the subjects should still be handled thoughtfully when they're brought up; they are bad things that make real people's lives worse everyday. People you and I care about had basic qualities of their being attacked for the sake of an esoteric zinger from a comic book mischief god and I don't think it was worth it.
Things like sexism, rape, homophobia, racism, etc being normalized is harmful. I'm guilty of it myself; it took my a long time to come around and realize that the people who were hating on the dickwolves in that Penny Arcade comic had a point, I used "gay" and "jew" as a pajoritive thoughtlessly into my mid-twenties. It's the kind of deeply ingrained social ill that only gets better when people are called out on it.
Except, again, it wasn't lazy or casual. It was purposeful. They didn't have Loki call her a "quim" just because they wanted to be offensive - that entire scene was a demonstration of the depth of contempt Loki has for humanity, and his truly childish nature as well. Ever run into someone so mad that they just through around logically inconsistent insults? It's a thing often associate with juveniles.
I can see other contexts where the writers would be considered "lazy," but this is not one of them. The scene added depth to Loki, in order to cast him simultaneously as a repulsive and pitiable villain. And this isn't even a case of normalizing - Loki is cast as a bad fucking guy who says bad fucking things. Earlier in the movie, he was compared to Hitler. That ain't normalizing.
The thing about heels, that could be a case of normalizing.
Loki isn't a bad guy; he's a character in a movie who has a line that flops on the deck like a cancerous halibut in the ears of anyone listening. He hated women for the total time it took to say the words and it's never mentioned again. It wasn't neccessary and it sucked.
ANYways, enough about sexism.
Let's talk about how much Captain America sucked.
Seriously, what the hell?
They spent a whole movie taking him from couragous weakling to chemical ubermensch to patriotic punchline to Captain Fucking America; leader of men, defender of life, liberty, apple pie and your mom (in a way you like). He's George Patton, Abe Lincoln and Mr. Smith (famous for going to Washington) rolled into one.
Then he takes a totally Neo-esque reversal of development and becomes jaded and sulky for not apparent reason. I mean, he has to be talked into wearing a flag! He should be talking S.H.E.I.L.D. into making his costume into a flag.
He's supposed to be the leader of the Avengers; the emotional core, unflappable and hyper-competent. He's not the heaviest hitter but he's the pivote that turns the brute force of prima donnas and monsters like Iron Man and the Hulk into Archimedes' lever capable of moving the world (out of harms way I guess).
Instead he does thigs like get so impressed by the helicarrier that he gives Nick Fury $10 even though he was punching Nazi Hydra super science in the jaw before Nick Fury was even born. He's constantly relegated to the Avengers B-team with Hawkeye and Black Widow. He doesn't even have the force of personality to impress some NYPD beat cops until he beats up a couple aliens in front of them.
The only time he had any ugly american red state swagger (which is at the core of everything great and terrible about the America that Cap represents) was when Thor and Iron Man fly off to do the required "super heroes fight before they team up" scene (which was awesome, don't get me wrong) and Black Widow tries to talk Cap out of following by saying "they're basically gods". Cap, unimpressed, just says "there's only one God, and he doesn't dress like that" and goes after them. That's awesome. They even make him uncool by telling us he's a Christian (something else that never becomes a factor again).
Then it's all undone when, instead of cowing them with his leadership, he wins by happening to have a vibranium shield which redirects Thor's hammer blow and knocks everyone down (which they did nothing to explain so I hope you were paying attention to a throwaway line in a different movie).
There was one moment from the Ultimate comics in particular that I though would have really pulled it together. Tony spends the movie going from a self serving bully who happens to be on the side of the angels to being a genuine self sacrificing hero and Cap is a big part of that. In the comics, during the Chitauri invasion even, Stark becomes convinced that they can't win and starts having a nervous breakdown; he's never really been confronted with the possibility that is might not be smart, strong or rich enough to get out of a situation. Cap is the one who pulls him out of it, basically pepping Stark up to become the hero he needed to be at that moment. I really missed that moment in this movie.
I really liked it too, but I've found myself focusing on little annoyances.
For instance, Black Widow had some GREAT scenes (talking to Loki, fearing Banner), but Scarlett Johansson is not a good actress and waffled hot and cold from scene to scene. Also, she's a Russian talking with a Maryland accent.
If you want to talk about laziness in writing, let's talk hypnosis. It's the poor man's amnesia. Neither should be ever used in anything again. I hate them. Hypnosis is just a cheap excuse to have someone act against his or her character.
Along those lines, Stellan Skarsgard's character wasn't really necessary, especially in a movie already juggling so many characters.
Also: How did Stark know how to counter the hyno effect of Loki's staff? He never saw it in action, hadn't studied it, didn't have any data, but Iron Man knew his +1 Bracelet of Science could counter its magic in a literal deus ex machina move.
And why did the ending have to be a direct Independence Day rip-off? Fly the nuke up the aliens' butthole, causing all the units on Earth to suddenly, simultaneously deactivate? C'mon, mang.
I mean, he has to be talked into wearing a flag! He should be talking S.H.E.I.L.D. into making his costume into a flag.
This is a really good point, actually. Cap was very wishy-washy throughout the movie, and that's not what he's supposed to be. This: might be a flawed sentiment in some ways, but that's what the goddamn Cap is supposed to be about. Unmoving and unwavering.
The real problem is that the movie spent too much time on Captain America asserting his "right" to be in the Avengers. Everyone else just sort of belonged, but Cap was constantly having to prove himself. Fuck you, Captain America doesn't have to prove himself to anyone.
Based on that comic, Cap would fight against gay rights.
Well, maybe not necessarily. He does say "stand up for what we believe" and "plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth." So maybe he strongly believes in gay rights. He'd fight for them in that case.
But you could totally have a guy named "Neo-Nazi Man" expressing the exact same sentiment about horrible things, yes.
The point is that Cap shouldn't be a wishy-washy wussbag trying to find his place in the world. Cap makes his place in the world.
Also: How did Stark know how to counter the hyno effect of Loki's staff? He never saw it in action, hadn't studied it, didn't have any data, but Iron Man knew his +1 Bracelet of Science could counter its magic in a literal deus ex machina move.
He doesn't, Loki just hits his arc reactor, Stark just gets a puzzled face like "what are you doing?". The rest of them were pierced with the staff over the heart.
Based on that comic, Cap would fight against gay rights.
There was actually a thing in the comics where the Red Skull basically tries to break Cap by pointing out that by his very nature he's more than other men and therefore directly contrary to the ideals that he upholds, namely that all men are created equal; he is literally the Nazi superman, blonde hair, blue eyes and all. He rejects this on the basis that what makes you isn't what you are, it's what you do with it and why.
He isn't an American and he isn't the patriotism that polititians wrap themselves in, he's the personification of the mythic America, not accepting limitations, taking what's given to him demanding as much of himself as he does from others. Give him your huddled masses and he'll give you a fighting chance.
You can argue the validity of the American dream in the real world, but in a world with Lie gods and Thunder gods he's the god of Bootstraps and Guts kicking the badguy's ass and stuff like that.
Oh, one other thing about that Loki/Black Widow thing.
I really liked that scene (other than those two unfortunate words). It justifies Black Widow's place on the Avengers. She isn't just a sexy lady who's good at kicking ass; she's the best liar. And not just the best liar in the world, the BEST liar.
And it isn't just that she's a good liar, she makes the truth into a lie. Her play wasn't "pretend to be a lovesick girl who's willing to betray everything to get her boo back" it was "be the cold hearted killer I'm trying to forget I was pretending to be a locksick girl, which Loki will see through because he's the God of Lies but because he holds all humanity is such contempt he'll just assume that I'm an idiot, get smug and let something slip". She exposes her true self and uses that as cover for her play. It's revealed that she felt genuine hurt afterwards which pushed to to being more than a good liar and putting herself on the battlefield.
I'm sure that, given the time, Joss Whedon could have spent a whole movie just having the two of them match wits, with Loki breaking through layer after layer of BW's story, with her staying one step ahead. I don't think it's going to far to say that, in the Whedon Avengers universe she is the Batman of lying.
That's probably why those two lousy words bug me so much. They didn't ruin everything for me, but they stuck out like sore thumbs.
See, I thought it was part of BW's play. She got Loki to get too invested in his hatred, so she could get what she wanted out of him.
I've got to say, I really like Tom Hiddleston, the guy who plays Loki. He does an excellent job of bringing Loki to life, and making him thoroughly detestable.
ID4 is garbage, but I will defend MIB all the way. True story: Lisa and I saw MIB2 on our honeymoon. It was the worst thing about our honeymoon. Related sad fact: This July 4 weekend will mark a decade of marriage.
Oh, I thought it was supposed to be some magnet bracelet pseudo-science bullshit.
Isn't the arc reactor built into Tony's chest a good enough distinguishing characteristic?
Actually, that whole scene only existed as set-up for Iron Man 3 which is going to be at least partially based off of the Extremis storyline which deals with Tony Stark being infected with the Extremis virus (basically a new version of the Super Soldier Serum that gives him a limited healing factor and the ability to directly communicate with machines) and making his new nano-machine Iron Man suit. The bracelets seem to be how he will be controlling the armor and the nano-machines, which I guess are in the prototype stage right now.
Either that or I am completely over analyzing that scene.
The MkVII bracelets are where Tony's at right before he makes the jump to the nanomachine suit (really, more like micromachines, since they live in the hollows of his bones, but w/e). So, you're not far off. There's a reason the suits have been getting better and better, and it's not just for the cool factor.
Comments
If I'm an intergalatic, all-conquering force, I'd probably hold all of humanity in equal contempt.
Thanos is an all-conquering force that hates with equal measure. Loki, however, is petty and petulant. He hates you. It's a reflection of an angsty character - he lashes out at people on a deeply personal level. And it also shows that he is not a god - a god would never become so personally embroiled in their conflicts with lesser beings.
It also makes him more malevolent. "Kneel before me" is egotistical and power-hungry, but "I will make your boyfriend torture you, you whining cunt" is so thoroughly malevolent that it makes the character loathsome. I don't even consider that misogyny. He hates Black Widow, but not because she's a woman. He hates every fiber of her being. And every fiber of everyone else's being.
And if he called Banner an "emo faggot," I'd think he was being juvenile, not homophobic.
I'm not saying Whedon went full Zack Snyder (oooh, I still hate Sucker Punch so much), but the movie is still not perfect on the sexism front (why do female S.H.E.I.L.D agents have high heels as part of their uniform?).
Having sexist or homophobic characters shouldn't be taboo, but the subjects should still be handled thoughtfully when they're brought up; they are bad things that make real people's lives worse everyday. People you and I care about had basic qualities of their being attacked for the sake of an esoteric zinger from a comic book mischief god and I don't think it was worth it.
Things like sexism, rape, homophobia, racism, etc being normalized is harmful. I'm guilty of it myself; it took my a long time to come around and realize that the people who were hating on the dickwolves in that Penny Arcade comic had a point, I used "gay" and "jew" as a pajoritive thoughtlessly into my mid-twenties. It's the kind of deeply ingrained social ill that only gets better when people are called out on it.
You say it's not worth it. If you knew anything about writing a script, you would know that it is worth anything to say what you want to say; bringing something to life onstage or onscreen is like raising a child. Your pathetic fetters only serve to stunt artistic expression in the same way that Irish Catholic censors did when they cut huge portions out of Joyce's Ulysses. The fact of the matter is that, by virtue of making you uncomfortable enough to discuss this, Whedon's characterization worked. Obviously you dislike that villain's manner on a very primal level, to the point where you'd like to get meta and alter the work itself so you're not uncomfortable. Whedon wins.
Unrustle your jimmies and read some books on literary theory sometime.
I can see other contexts where the writers would be considered "lazy," but this is not one of them. The scene added depth to Loki, in order to cast him simultaneously as a repulsive and pitiable villain. And this isn't even a case of normalizing - Loki is cast as a bad fucking guy who says bad fucking things. Earlier in the movie, he was compared to Hitler. That ain't normalizing.
The thing about heels, that could be a case of normalizing.
ANYways, enough about sexism.
Let's talk about how much Captain America sucked.
Seriously, what the hell?
They spent a whole movie taking him from couragous weakling to chemical ubermensch to patriotic punchline to Captain Fucking America; leader of men, defender of life, liberty, apple pie and your mom (in a way you like). He's George Patton, Abe Lincoln and Mr. Smith (famous for going to Washington) rolled into one.
Then he takes a totally Neo-esque reversal of development and becomes jaded and sulky for not apparent reason. I mean, he has to be talked into wearing a flag! He should be talking S.H.E.I.L.D. into making his costume into a flag.
He's supposed to be the leader of the Avengers; the emotional core, unflappable and hyper-competent. He's not the heaviest hitter but he's the pivote that turns the brute force of prima donnas and monsters like Iron Man and the Hulk into Archimedes' lever capable of moving the world (out of harms way I guess).
Instead he does thigs like get so impressed by the helicarrier that he gives Nick Fury $10 even though he was punching Nazi Hydra super science in the jaw before Nick Fury was even born. He's constantly relegated to the Avengers B-team with Hawkeye and Black Widow. He doesn't even have the force of personality to impress some NYPD beat cops until he beats up a couple aliens in front of them.
The only time he had any ugly american red state swagger (which is at the core of everything great and terrible about the America that Cap represents) was when Thor and Iron Man fly off to do the required "super heroes fight before they team up" scene (which was awesome, don't get me wrong) and Black Widow tries to talk Cap out of following by saying "they're basically gods". Cap, unimpressed, just says "there's only one God, and he doesn't dress like that" and goes after them. That's awesome. They even make him uncool by telling us he's a Christian (something else that never becomes a factor again).
Then it's all undone when, instead of cowing them with his leadership, he wins by happening to have a vibranium shield which redirects Thor's hammer blow and knocks everyone down (which they did nothing to explain so I hope you were paying attention to a throwaway line in a different movie).
There was one moment from the Ultimate comics in particular that I though would have really pulled it together. Tony spends the movie going from a self serving bully who happens to be on the side of the angels to being a genuine self sacrificing hero and Cap is a big part of that. In the comics, during the Chitauri invasion even, Stark becomes convinced that they can't win and starts having a nervous breakdown; he's never really been confronted with the possibility that is might not be smart, strong or rich enough to get out of a situation. Cap is the one who pulls him out of it, basically pepping Stark up to become the hero he needed to be at that moment. I really missed that moment in this movie.
hehe... puny god.
For instance, Black Widow had some GREAT scenes (talking to Loki, fearing Banner), but Scarlett Johansson is not a good actress and waffled hot and cold from scene to scene. Also, she's a Russian talking with a Maryland accent.
If you want to talk about laziness in writing, let's talk hypnosis. It's the poor man's amnesia. Neither should be ever used in anything again. I hate them. Hypnosis is just a cheap excuse to have someone act against his or her character.
Along those lines, Stellan Skarsgard's character wasn't really necessary, especially in a movie already juggling so many characters.
Also: How did Stark know how to counter the hyno effect of Loki's staff? He never saw it in action, hadn't studied it, didn't have any data, but Iron Man knew his +1 Bracelet of Science could counter its magic in a literal deus ex machina move.
And why did the ending have to be a direct Independence Day rip-off? Fly the nuke up the aliens' butthole, causing all the units on Earth to suddenly, simultaneously deactivate? C'mon, mang.
might be a flawed sentiment in some ways, but that's what the goddamn Cap is supposed to be about. Unmoving and unwavering.
The real problem is that the movie spent too much time on Captain America asserting his "right" to be in the Avengers. Everyone else just sort of belonged, but Cap was constantly having to prove himself. Fuck you, Captain America doesn't have to prove himself to anyone.
But you could totally have a guy named "Neo-Nazi Man" expressing the exact same sentiment about horrible things, yes.
The point is that Cap shouldn't be a wishy-washy wussbag trying to find his place in the world. Cap makes his place in the world.
Isn't the arc reactor built into Tony's chest a good enough distinguishing characteristic?
He isn't an American and he isn't the patriotism that polititians wrap themselves in, he's the personification of the mythic America, not accepting limitations, taking what's given to him demanding as much of himself as he does from others. Give him your huddled masses and he'll give you a fighting chance.
You can argue the validity of the American dream in the real world, but in a world with Lie gods and Thunder gods he's the god of Bootstraps and Guts kicking the badguy's ass and stuff like that.
Oh, one other thing about that Loki/Black Widow thing.
I really liked that scene (other than those two unfortunate words). It justifies Black Widow's place on the Avengers. She isn't just a sexy lady who's good at kicking ass; she's the best liar. And not just the best liar in the world, the BEST liar.
And it isn't just that she's a good liar, she makes the truth into a lie. Her play wasn't "pretend to be a lovesick girl who's willing to betray everything to get her boo back" it was "be the cold hearted killer I'm trying to forget I was pretending to be a locksick girl, which Loki will see through because he's the God of Lies but because he holds all humanity is such contempt he'll just assume that I'm an idiot, get smug and let something slip". She exposes her true self and uses that as cover for her play. It's revealed that she felt genuine hurt afterwards which pushed to to being more than a good liar and putting herself on the battlefield.
I'm sure that, given the time, Joss Whedon could have spent a whole movie just having the two of them match wits, with Loki breaking through layer after layer of BW's story, with her staying one step ahead. I don't think it's going to far to say that, in the Whedon Avengers universe she is the Batman of lying.
That's probably why those two lousy words bug me so much. They didn't ruin everything for me, but they stuck out like sore thumbs.
I've got to say, I really like Tom Hiddleston, the guy who plays Loki. He does an excellent job of bringing Loki to life, and making him thoroughly detestable.
True story: Lisa and I saw MIB2 on our honeymoon. It was the worst thing about our honeymoon.
Related sad fact: This July 4 weekend will mark a decade of marriage.
Either that or I am completely over analyzing that scene.