I'm more of the mindset that if a experiment is repeatable and you really care about it, then invest and try to repeat it and compare your results.
That can really only take you so far, though. Proper science is expensive and time-consuming, and doesn't yield the sweeping conclusions that people want it to yield. Here, I'll reference XKCD: Everyone wants science to be the thing on the left, but it's really the thing on the right. You need to conduct a whole lot of different experiments, each testing a single controlled variable, on a wide variety of subjects over a long period of time, before you can actually determine something.
That is they can't discern a crackpot in a lab coat from a real scientist.
Yes, this is a huge problem. However, there is also a very large problem with people disbelieving anyone in a lab coat, scientist or not, and thinking that they can figure something out on their own despite having no functional knowledge in that field. We have experts for a reason. It's impossible to actually do everything you need to do all by yourself.
If someone feels better because they believe the water they are drinking is fluoridated, then regardless of whether it is or isn't they are feeling better. If experience is fooling us, then on a practical level people will always default to that.
Sure, people will go with it, but it's bullshit, and the whole "sure, they're wrong, but it's harmless" mentality ensures that people will remain ignorant for a long time to come. The problem is that, when you fool yourself, you allow yourself to become susceptible to fooling. Then, you open yourself up to being scammed by something truly harmful.
The world is full of deceitful people who would love to take your money from you. Many of them are very good at appearing to be legitimate while actually being little better than snake oil salesman. You could say that they're doing no harm, and on an individual level you are probably correct. However, in totality, permitting such hogwash only contributes to a widespread acceptance of fallacious beliefs, and that will hurt everyone in the long run.
The basic philosophy remains the same though, test, don't believe. Rather than trying to convince people that you are right or wrong, present them with a means to gather data themselves and show you actual recorded evidence.
I'm mostly with you, except that personal tests aren't necessarily valid. I say "research, don't believe." It's really impractical to test every claim you're given via experimentation; however, even a minimal amount of research and education will yield a more robust opinion.
So it all started with this guy posting this link "" Guy: This is our reality
Me: Not really, it's just we get more busy and less down time. It has nothing to do with "time" acceleration. We personally get more busy and you know the old saying "time flies when your having fun" it really means "Time flies when your busy"
Friend of Guy: Both sayings are correct, but why do we "get more busy"? The system has people stuck in mechanical timing. We aren't machines.
Guy: In the history of humanity, it is < 1% of our time that we have had the concept of a "9 to 5 job, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year" as the "right" and mainstream thing to do. Yet anyone who tries to break this new mold are shunned by society. Take Holden Caulfield for example, who saw through this "phony" life. The Matrix has you.
Other non-crazy person: I don't understand your point. Before the 9 to 5 job was created, the "right" thing was either to work in a factory for 12 hours a day or family farming (which typically took all day). It has only been with industrialization that many middle- to low- income people have had leisure time to spend not working for subsistence or survival. ... See MoreEvidence of this can be seen in the rise of clubs and associations for middle-class people in the late-1700 to early 1800s. We actually have more leisure time and less working time than any other age has had, but the dawn of the information age (making the gathering of information and entertainment more convenient), the increase in education and service industries (providing a wealth of services, opportunities, and additional education not attained by/possible for middle classes until the 1800-1900s) and the commodification of leisure time (video games, movies, etc, etc) has given us a sense that we have to be in perpetual motion or have something to keep us occupied at all times and in order to be in fashion... making time acceleration seem more a product of the mind-set of the industrio-capitalist system into which we all have bought to various extents simply by purchasing goods. I also don't understand what other mold you would like to offer against the mainstream, unless you are planning to revert to family farming or begging? One rational alternative would be to focus on less commodification (ie buy less stuff) ..Also, I thought that the point that the man was trying to make was that is actually speeding up (which may have had more to do with his apparent extensive psychadelic drug use than actual reality). But maybe I have missed the argument completelyt?
Friend of Guy: Well miss long story, what is actual reality? Can you define what is real? If it is just something you can feel or touch, real is just electrical signals interpreted by your brain.
As far as industrialization goes, this created "work." Family farming or self-reliance was not thought of as work, it was just simple living. This simple living ... See Morewas spread throughout the entire day, so no time schedules were necessary. Relying on civilization to provide "work", shelter, or food/water is slavery. Relying upon oneself is the only way to freedom. Only you should be responsible for what you learn. At least family farming created communities. Communities are an endangered species nowadays.
What if everything you knew about the world was wrong? What if things that were labled "good" in society were acually bad? The same applies to the opposite.
Me: You have of course asked no small questions, asking someone to define good and to also point out actual reality....
What if you asked so many questions you never actually achieved anything. Look, the only thing you truly know exists is yourself. Everything else could be all a dream for all you know and care, however reality is whatever ... See Moreyou are perceiving, barring you being a part of some crazy experiment you have to assume that the reality you are perceiving is the reality you have to deal with otherwise your going to find yourself walking into intersections and getting yourself hit by a car or walking off a cliff believing it's not there. Functionally we have to trust in a certain degree of reality.
What is good or bad, well those are relative conceptions however there are many schools of ethics which one can use to figure out what is good or bad without resorting in the messy realm of gods and demigods. Good can be perceived on many levels, What is good for Earth, what is good for that bird over there and what is good for you and I can be radically different. Utilitarianism is the ethical philosophy of making ethical choices with a emphasis on maximizing the benefits while created the smallest amount of negative consequences. Humanism is making the right choices for Humanity (and not relying on supernatural help). As someone who generally falls in the utilitarianism Humanist to behave ethically or “good†for Humanity, I have to attempt to behave in ways that are good for the Human race as a whole. This could involve doing things that are negative to both the planet or smaller groups of Humanity that might endanger Humanity as a whole. I could go about a couple of different other philosophies and even give a evolutionary “good†if so desired. So in reality the good is a subject term determined by the individual/family/society. One calls that relative but I'm not sure it's as relative as it appears.
Communities? Endangered? Or just evolving. Much has been said about the death of the “local†communities, however it still exists for those who want to make of it. I learned in High school and College to get involved and from that I've never felt I've lacked a family (not counting blood). I have friends and associates that I talk to regularly all over the world, a network of people to debate with and trade philosophies. People who you would have lost contact with 30 years ago we are now able to keep in contact with. The web helps inform me of social events and aspects of friends lives I would not have heard about. We have the ability to expand outside of our limited geography more then we ever have. Does this cause us to spend less time with our neighbors? Probably, but there are still many local organizations everywhere that you can be involved in.
As for your point about only you should be responsible for what you learn, well that's college, before we had the institution of a public education the literacy rate was abysmally low. Obviously our education system needs more work but I wouldn't say that we should go to a point where people are not held to educational standards. As for simple living, those people worked their entire lives away. Without civilization life would be short brutal and cruel. The slavery you talk of is only what you create yourself, we fortunately live in a place where your future isn't worked out totally for you..
Guy: Wow this is a lot to respond to. First off what McKenna said in the video was that this is in no way a product of human activities. He was simply stating a natural law of our universe. But seeing as no one is talking about The Universe.......
Lets consider a few little known important pieces of information. Combined, the world produces enough ... See Morefood to feed each and every person on Earth three times over. This means that TOMORROW, world hunger could be solved. Instead, most of it is never even eaten, leaving thousands dying of starvation. Cannabis, currently classified as a schedule I narcotic, is a proven cure for cancer, and well over a few hundred other highly common diseases/sicknesses/ailments, and has never killed a person. Instead, we produce new laboratory synthetics that all cause more harm than good, getting these companies filthy rich as people die. Each year when they invent a new vaccine, it goes straight to the required list, no questions asked. The government wants to make everyone carry an "all-info-in-one" RFID tracking national ID cards. If that isn't every criminals dream, idk what is. They tell you that college is the one and only road to success, and yet universities are infants compared to human history. The government says that carbon is causing global warming, and yet the ocean is the leading contributor to the carbon cycle. Carbon tax my ass. In every US state, there are FEMA camps made with barbed wire facing INWARDS!!! The "personal life" is long dead. The gov buys information from Google, Apple, etc, places cameras in every building and street corner, tracks credit cards (and is making cash slowly obsolete) on and on and on so that with a push of a button they know everything you have ever done your whole life. Each and every single one of these problems could be fixed with a single stroke of a pen. There is no question there. And yet they don't give a f*ck about you. They helped as little as possible with Haiti, Katrina, the financial crisis, and so on, and sometimes only made the problem worse.
So, when the government tells me this: "The American family has two children, a stay at home mom, one house, two cars, and a dad who works 9 to 5..." you know the story; then do you seriously expect me to bow my head and conform?
Americans all proles who wake up and go to work or school because we are told they are told to. They drive a car because they have no choice. They use a credit card because cash is worthless. They eat fast food. They come home and watch Faux news or CNN, no difference, they both lie constantly. They drink water containing fluoride and other lethal chemicals. They get vaccines containing RFID chips, becoming a part of the system.
I had the choice, then I would grow my own food and make my own medicine. I would collect rain water and use solar power for electronics. I would be completely off the grid in every literal sense. I would find a group of friends I trust and live in a neighborhood together with everyone. Each person would do the same basic survival things I just mentioned, and we would always lend a hand to anyone in need.We would have absolutely no need of debt, also known as money, because we would be free. This is a true community. A place that is always safe, always sticks together, and never owes each other a thing, because as good people debt is a foreign concept. A community is NOT the people at work or school, or even on Facebook, as much as you are told so each day by "society". Sure, in all these places you can collaborate ideas and have the time of your life with some of the other people, but in your time of need, how many will help without being asked? They would shrug you off as another bump in the road and go back to their life of slavery.
Other Not Crazy person: In line with Scott's discussion above, the debates on objective/subjective reality and relativism/universalism in society and ethics are ones which take on various standpoints on a grey-scale between the two dualisms. Reality is ... See Moreneither completely objective nor completely subjective, and ethics and social understandings can be highly relativistic though certain universal similarities may occur. Consequently, instead of elaborating my own personal philosophy on these subjects (which, based on experience in my academic classes, leads only to serious hours long debate/contemplation of ones' navels--or other body parts), I will jump past the metaphysical/ontological/epistemological debate and into the more content-based comments in your second paragraph.
First, the reason I brought up industrialization creating work and bringing meaning to leisure activities was in response to the apparent assumption that the speeding up of time relates to this changed understanding and to note that there is now more leisure time. True, before industrialization, there was no separation between the two, at least for recording purposes. However, this fact does not imply that people were "freer" or less busy than people in the 21st century. With industrialization and the move (willing or unwilling) of larger numbers of people to cities, people became more able to partake in cultural and leisure activities and increasingly joined social and educational groups. This change in behavior on the part of a large group of society perceived that leisure was more readily available and desirable. While no system of order in society is without its faults, the move to industrialization has provided more opportunities for and the commodification of leisure time.
The second part of your comments on the reliance on civilization for basic needs (shelter, food/water) and knowledge as a form of "slavery" is a lovely post-structural reaction to the industrialization. While it would be nice to discuss subverting mainstream realities, like most critical theories, this falls short in the "actual practicable solutions" area. Given your comments, to throw off all slavery, people should become solitary creatures who fend for themselves and rely on no others. However, this existence in practice would return everyone back to a Hobbesian-like world of the survival of the fittest. Like the theoretical world itself, this world can never actually exist given the current status of world development. Consequently, all reliance cannot be thrown off, and a certain level of acceptance of the civilization by all peoples must be attained for any person to survive and exist. If one acts in a completely Hobbesian manner, they would very quickly find themselves imprisoned.
Finally, I agree with Scott on the whole community issue. I think community, like so many other points you made, is subjective. I think it is more reliant on the effort people put into maintaining their community (whoever is included). I have been fortunate enough to travel quite a bit, but have been able (via social media and the internet) to stay in touch with people from my hometown, my family, and other people that I have met in my travels. I think the community is there, but maybe what it typically constitutes (a virtual or highly dispersed rather than a geographical area) has dramatically changed.
Wow, it is impossible to write short answers to the comments! Since I have finally finished this (somewhat verbose) ditty, I am going to bed -- it's uber-late here!
PS While I enjoy the philosophical discussion, I still am genuinely confused about the actual comments made by this man, since he said it was the acceleration of time in the space-time continuum (what I am going to call actual time). I was correct in my understanding of his point, yes? Bueller... Bueller?
Guy: Looks like we were writing at the same time haha or I would have mentioned your last post! As far as what McKenna says about time, it means quite a few things. In a literal sense, time has been proven mathematically to be "speeding up". Time exists as cycles of events. Human existence is littered with dark ages, war time, peace time, technological ... See Moreadvances, and so on. If these events were all charted, the closer you get to "now", the faster these cycles repeat. that's the basic jist of it. We "get more busy" because the natural cycles of human events are exponentially getting shorter. Two millenium ago Jesus walked the Earth. The industrial revolution, giving us maybe 90% of ALL our technology, was only 300 years ago. 100 years ago there were no aeroplanes, cars, or electricity. Half a decade ago DNA was discovered. 20 years ago email was about the extent of the Internet. 5 years ago Facebook was located under some guys desk. Just in the past year 3D movies came out. Last month the iPad came out. This is the effect of time on our lives. If people advanced at a comstant rate, we would probably be just now discovering concrete. It just so happens (no coincidence at all) that the mathematical limit of this acceleration converges in December 21, 2012 @ 11:11 AM. On October 23, 2011 the current cycle will end. The next one will end just months before the end/beginning, then 5 days, then 2.5 minutes, a few seconds......... I know this is hard to believe. We are trained to see time = money instead of time = nature. Not even our calender or clocks make sense. If you ever have the time, basically my whole account is a plethora of information on every important topic. Just stArt with one that interests you and go from there. I don't see how so many people could independantly say the same thing and be wrong about it.
Other Guy: I know now that I need to be very specific and not talk in generalities. You people will crucify me.
First, Scott. Yes, I know that reality is whatever you are currently perceiving. You just have to remember that there are other realities. Common sense. The mind can only be on one reality at a time though. You can go daydreaming and get hit by traffic, but that's not at all what I was suggesting.
Onto your good vs bad argument. This is not the direction I wanted this subject to go, but o well. I believe in staying human and helping out fellow man. Seriously though you should read up on the Law of One, this will help you simplify what you tried o say about this subject. I didn't mean for this direction, rather the direction of legal vs illegal. Things labeled as illegal are actually good for you, except for meth, cocaine, and other artificial drugs. Things that are legal like thousands of pharmaceuticals that help you get better or stay healthy actually hurt you or do a poor job with side effects. Artificial drugs are not the way to go. Believe me, there are natural cures for every ailment, you just have to find the information. Just because they aren't publicized like pharmaceuticals, doesn't mean they don't exist. No, I am not a hippie.
When I said communities, I should have said physical neighborhoods or local communities close to your place of residence. These pretty much don't exist, at least in my neighborhood and most that I've seen. People are occupied with entertainment indoors, but that's a different conversation. But yes, there are countless organizations I could join to form a community of sorts, but I was just stuck on neighborhoods as I see that place very often. The world wide web is a great community though. In my opinion, it is the greatest accomplishment of the "civilized" world. It successfully connects most everyone in the world to form a planetary conscience. You can learn more on the internet than in any school you go to. That is just a simple fact. You can learn about anything, instantly, at your own pace. You just have to know how to search for what you're looking for. We should all have a strong desire to learn and hold ourselves to high standards, but sadly, most people don't care about learning as much as they do a piece of paper that says they graduated.
As for simple living, think before you had to sell things for money in an industrialized world. Thousands of years back. The truth is hard to find, but it is out there. Communities of people taught to know everything about the planet they lived on. They were not uneducated cavemen at all. They were far more human than we are today, and in many ways more advanced. Truth has been hidden only for keeping a relatively few people in control. They know the real knowledge of the world, especially history. We can all rely upon ourselves a little bit more than we currently do. For example, grow some of your own food, or maybe create some energy to power your house. Basically, with today's technology, you can use it to just rely less upon a fragile system and more yourself and your community of whatever sort.
What happens when the electricity goes out for a week? Non-packaged food from grocery stores spoils. No running water. No lights. The list can go on. Riots and looting prevail. In better terms, shit hits the fan. SHTF scenarios have happened before, just look at New Orleans, or just New York City when the electricity went out for a week. Just one week can case a lot of damage to society. So, I'm just here promoting a little self-reliance. You don't need to go into the wilderness and try and survive day to day, you can stay where you are, just be prepared SHTF scenarios, that is all. Not to mention growing your own food is far more healthy than anything you buy in stores.
I hope this cleared my generalities up. To Other Non crazy person, What you said about industrialization and "people became more able to partake in cultural and leisure activities and increasingly joined social and educational groups" is false. There was plenty of culture and leisure activities before industrialization. The thought that ancient civilization didn't have these ... See Morefreedoms is a sham. Just do more research on ancient civilizations. We are taught to actually believe that they were slaves and we are somehow better off today. History that we learn today in places of "education" is just accepted and unquestioned, although it is fake. People that are in control of this world know the real history. I'm sorry to say it but we're just cattle if we believe the history that we were taught in school.
And as for reliance, just don't put all your apples in one basket. Never rely on governments, rely on real people.
Guy: Firstly, this is a great quote from a song: "The daily grind has got your mind Tied up and twisted on you. Lace up you boots, take the commute' Cause it's what we gotta do. Normal sees ideology. It's meant to keep you in place. But the truth is that we're all messed up In our own messed up way." This basically sums up what they have been doing to ... See Moreus for many many years.
Next, the topic of self education. Spare the few rotten apples, I can't really say I have ever had a bad teacher. However, in ALL subjects, including math, art, and the more obvious history and government classes, there are many topics that they are just not allowed by the government to teach to the general population. For example, take the long list of facts I previously posted. All untouchable topics in places of education. And yet, it is literally just a few clicks away. I believe that the internet is the one final oasis of the human mind/spirit, at least in the sense of community. The FCC is trying to help us by being against Net Neutrality. Everyone else is probably for it in the government. If you didn't know, NN is what would allow ISPs to filter information. This information of course being everything they keep out of schools. They could blacklist thousands of websites, all while getting rich off their 'donkeys'. But for now, this is not the case. Start by leaving no questions unasked. Fish around to this or that topic, and start to see the truth. Then widen your horizons. Just keep thinking "What if. What if this is all real. What if when SHTF, I won't have a clue what to do. I'd better find out all I can." Then you will start to awaken to the truth, to reality. You will start to see the pointless monotony of day to day life. If we as people hadn't been corrupted by negative influences toward industry and corruption so many years ago, only then can we say communities are alive and strong. In this situation, we would still have airplanes, radios, TVs and even digital music players, but we just wouldn't be corrupted by them. There would be no "celebrities", because everyone would be equal. Truly equal. There wouldn't be corporations, but there would still be malls and market places in some sense. There would be no states and country borders, but still towns and villages. The global society would all work together as one. Instead of a society, what we have in reality is a push towards global government. There would be no government in a world free of the influences of service-to-self ways of thinking. The society would function as one mind, one brain, truly connected to every other person, (or other-self). Locally there would always be a strong flow of public *free* trade, both physical and informational. The internet would be at it's full potential, and free of the lies and false, deceptive information you will need to watch out for.
There is always the possibility of change. If this information and way of thinking get out, there will be a "hundredth monkey effect." Everyone will start to wake up to the truth, and then we will be saved. I hope you see how important it is to teach yourself and not to listen to the media, public entertainment industries, both run by the government, which is run by the banks.
Me: So much to respond to in a system not designed to handle this sort of conversation...
I'll be quick though, the government is a tool, made up of people (I'll go back to the fact that john said to trust people) the government can't be big brother and perfect and incompetent at the same time. In reality it is somewhere in the middle.
Now let... refute guy for a few minutes because he has made a few claims that go way outside of the arena of philosophy and directly deal with some real world issues that we definitely have conclusive science on. One, Fluoride in the water, something that has been talked about since the 1940’s if you actually did some research on it that didn’t involve alt. websites full of conspiracies theories you would find that fluoridation in the water has been responsible for general improvement of dental health that we have acquired since we started to do this. RFID in vaccines? I’m not even sure where to start with that. First there is no evidence that there are RFID in vaccines a quick search on this topic leads you to only sites where “alternative†theories are purposed. If this was really going on, there would be much more information about it. The government can’t cover up anything let alone something that well 1,000s of doctors would notice. You have recommended a few books in this discussion so let me name a book that you should definitely take a look at Carl Sagan’s “The Demon Haunted world: Science as a candle in the dark†and Michael Shermer “Why People believe weird things: Pseudoscience, Superstition and other confusions of our timeâ€. You are obviously searching for the truth but without critical thinking skills and a rational mind you will be taken advantage of (specifically 2012 theories and the like).
I’m sorry if the above was a bit more critical then I wanted it to be but I talk as someone who has been in your shoes. I fell into things like “Astral Projection†and other occult things that no one ever really talked about and explored those subjects to the limits that I was able however as I explored I read more and more things that thoroughly debunked these “mystical†experiences, in the end I was left with Lucid dreaming (which is real and routed in science) but had abandoned all the more “metaphysical†ideas. I also started down the path I see you heading as well and all I can say is while you question the government/religion and other things make sure at the same time you are also applying the same criticism to your own position.
As for friend of guy’s points, I’ll take them on when I have more time since they are more philosophical in nature. While it might sound like I’m just defending “The Man†I believe we should hold people to what they have actually done, not what we think they have done. Question your own theories as well as the alternative theories that sound so convincing but may not have a lot of evidence behind them.
Guy: I will answer more later, but for now a question. What was it that made you change your mind?
Me: about what aspect? supernatural things? because there is no evidence, none what's so ever. Everything that people claim to be supernatural has been either explained by science or shown to be a fraud. There is a old magician named James Randi who has a 1,000,000 dollar prize, you have to submit your supernatural power to his test, so far no one has ever succeeded. A better understanding of the scientific method along with an understanding of how statistics works goes a long way to explaining most phenomenal you are exposed to.
But to your greater question, you are correct it is good to keep your mind open just don't open it so much that it falls out. It's good to open to the possibilities that present themselves but always remember to be skeptical. Losing your ability to critically analyzes a situation leaves you open to many pseudosciences and frauds.
Guy: Watch the whole series if you want cold hard evidence
Me: Watching it now, nothing that can pass the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" about 8:58 into the video it has a guy who talks about Chariot of the Gods and how it is a neat way to see the world full of adventure, that's all well in good I wanted the world to be full of vampires and dark evil that I could hunt but the world was ... See Morenot that way. Look I'm not ruling out that there is intelligent life out there, probability says there should be other life out there, but there is no evidence that does not require you to build a theory and then cherry pick the evidence to fit your theory. That's a mistake that Creationists make as well. They have a theory but no evidence so they only take in the evidence that agrees with their theory and ignore or downplay conflicting evidence. This is called confirmation bias and is a bane to our existence.
Take the Nasca Desert Drawings, the documentary mentions the "non-alien visitor" reasons in passing because it doesn't confirm with the narrative they are trying to lay out. Isn't the explanation simpler to conclude that like many ancient civilizations they believed their gods looked down upon them from the heavens. http://www.onagocag.com/nazca.html
Me: put all that information together to say what? that they were giving people RFID bracelets voluntary so they could track the spread of the virus and the vaccine? or the fact that Mass. wanted to make a quarantine law in case the flue was truly a disaster that they feared they could get people vaccinated quickly and efficiently?
There was no forced vaccination.. but this was just like the normal flu shot they have every year but to a more specific strain.... Those vaccines don't have to be retested for safety because they are fundamentally the same. Forced vaccination was a joke anyway they didn't have enough of the vaccine to give to all the at risk populations let alone everyone else.
Friend of Guy: So would you say that all these ancient civilizations all had these similar beliefs all at the same time and it was all coincidence? I haven't found any evidence to disprove that aliens colonized this planet.
I just wanted to touch upon fluoride. It was made to be applied to the teeth, not ingested. Fluoridation is not science at all.
Me: Ummmm... It's called PubMed and it's full of studies done on water fluoridation. http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/OralHealth/Topics/Fluoride/TheStoryofFluoridation.htm you realize part of the way we figured out fluoride was effective against cavities was they noticed that people who lived in an area where the water was naturally high in fluoride had less ... See Morecavities then people who lived in areas that did not..... Then doing some experiments to prove efficiency. I don't know if you know this but I work in a pre-clinical lab where we conduct studies to determine if a drug will cause detrimental effects if taken by pregnant women. This is just part of the testing a drug has to go through before it can be brought to market (mandated by the government).
As for "I haven't found any evidence to disprove that aliens colonized this planet" this is a logical fallacy see this entry on the logical fallacy "Argument from ignorance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance. There is not a plethora of evidence that aliens have visited our world but at the same time there is large amount of anthropological evidence on the evolution of religion and culture among the ancient world.
As the stuff above..... wow.. lots of writing, if anything didn't cut right it's because of facebook, a lot of the writing might be pretty crappy...
Your telling me, I didn't realize how much text had went back and forth until I was unable to post the conversation without cutting it up......jesus christ...
@TheWhaleShark Then at that point you have to admit to yourself "Guess what, this is what the research says, and it makes sense, but I don't know for sure". That's the end I've come to on most of this stuff, which is why I say you have to make pragmatic decisions based on results at some point or another.
I take the standpoint on most things of "I don't know for sure, but this is what works for me". That goes from knife forging to writing code. Some people do things differently, and it works and I just don't know how.
So I agree with you totally, testing everything isn't a practical solution. But research doesn't give you absolute certainty either. So the end result is really that you admit that you don't know a whole hell of a lot for sure, and that doesn't satisfy most people. I love the comic you put up there btw. My problem is when people make a religion out of anything, be it science or fake medicine, when they should just admit that they don't have any way to know for sure. But for most practical purposes research does exactly what you said it does, and is valuable for practical decision making.
As for the 'harmless stupid fantasy' thing, I'm not a fan of switching people from one religion to another or pissing everyone I know off, so for the most part I just leave it be. I normally don't go off on people who compare a katana to a longsword, or this type of blade to that type. to use a practical example; most people don't know the first thing about what they are saying, and it makes them happy, so on a practical level why should it be my place to piss them off and tell them that the viking sword making technology was better in almost every way? People will always hold beliefs contrary to your own, and it they didn't then things would be pretty boring in my opinion.
At any rate, much respect to you, Sir. I enjoy being able to indulge in this conversation. Normally people don't understand a single word I'm saying about this stuff.
I would have given up long ago. It's mostly gibberish, and sounds very copy/paste. None of these things are his original thoughts, but appear to be a mishmash of various memes he's strung together into a paranoid narrative.
If you want to test him, see if he believes in Tacmars. He's probably never heard of them, but I'll wager they'll rapidly be incorporated into his overall narrative. If they do, you've proven that he's basically barely thinking, but simply regurgitating chunks of memes that fit within his batshit worldview.
So, my suggestion is thus. Introduce Tacmars to him as though you now understand what he's been saying all along. "You might be right, man. I just don't know anymore." Ask him to investigate Tacmars for you, since he "knows about this sort of thing." Watch him buy in. Let it incorporate. Then, repeat with an even crazier piece of batshit. Give him plenty of rope. Eventually, lead him to Time Cube.
The hope is that he'll start to try and debunk the craziness at some point to YOU. Once this happens, you're winning. Literally copy/paste his arguments defending his own batshit to defend the batshit of which he is suddenly dubious. What you'll be doing effectively is holding up a mirror and forcing him to argue with it. If there is any intelligence left within him, he won't be able to escape his own gaze.
Either you'll win in the end, or he's past the event horizon of logic and reason.
Why are you associating with these people...even facebook associating?
See above comments before wall of text, this guy was someone on the "right" path. A geek, going into computer science, skeptical and generally someone you would associate with... Something happened in the last few months in college. I'm not sure...It's worthy enough to investigate.
Why are you associating with these people...even facebook associating?
and tell them that the viking sword making technology was better in almost every way?
Whoa whoa whoa...whoa. Come again?
I'm willing to discuss this in the bladesmithing topic, but it's really not worth totally derailing this. I would even be happy to talk to you about this over skype. I have a lot of experience with this stuff, I'm kind of obsessed with knife/sword making techniques.
Also if you look at the discussion you can kinda see how it goes way off the rails.... I wasn't expecting to get to RFID's in Vaccines and alien precursors, I was just talking about why time seems to speed up as you get older. So you can understand almost being tricked into a long flowing debate that went totally crazy without even realizing how far you have drifted.... It was kinda unnerving and sorta made me continue to see how far it went... and apparently the woo goes really far.
I would have given up long ago. It's mostly gibberish, and sounds very copy/paste. None of these things are his original thoughts, but appear to be a mishmash of various memes he's strung together into a paranoid narrative.
If you want to test him, see if he believes in Tacmars. He's probably never heard of them, but I'll wager they'll rapidly be incorporated into his overall narrative. If they do, you've proven that he's basically barely thinking, but simply regurgitating chunks of memes that fit within his batshit worldview.
So, my suggestion is thus. Introduce Tacmars to him as though you now understand what he's been saying all along. "You might be right, man. I just don't know anymore." Ask him to investigate Tacmars for you, since he "knows about this sort of thing." Watch him buy in. Let it incorporate. Then, repeat with an even crazier piece of batshit. Give him plenty of rope. Eventually, lead him to Time Cube.
The hope is that he'll start to try and debunk the craziness at some point to YOU. Once this happens, you're winning. Literally copy/paste his arguments defending his own batshit to defend the batshit of which he is suddenly dubious. What you'll be doing effectively is holding up a mirror and forcing him to argue with it. If there is any intelligence left within him, he won't be able to escape his own gaze.
Either you'll win in the end, or he's past the event horizon of logic and reason.
I hereby Dub this "The Medusa Strategy."
I stand by my suggestion above. Suggest crazier and crazier things to him until he balks. If he ever balks, defriend him. If he balks, you've won.
Be wary, though, as there are some people who are literally to crazy to deal with - See example of My housemate's friend that I listed above, who, when it's related back to him(and without knowing it was two major video games of the past few years), thinks that the story of the Assassin's Creed games is literally true.
So I agree with you totally, testing everything isn't a practical solution. But research doesn't give you absolute certainty either. So the end result is really that you admit that you don't know a whole hell of a lot for sure, and that doesn't satisfy most people. I love the comic you put up there btw. My problem is when people make a religion out of anything, be it science or fake medicine, when they should just admit that they don't have any way to know for sure. But for most practical purposes research does exactly what you said it does, and is valuable for practical decision making.
Well, there's no such thing as "certainty." That's another issue entirely. Yes, you're absolutely right that you really can only do enough work to find a practical solution. That's really what science does; we investigate things in order to find a practical application, and then investigate ways to improve or expand said practical application.
The way to do it is look at the research and say, "This is the best answer we have right now, so that's what I'm going with." Your own research, by and large, is faulty. If you want to do your own studies, you at least need to compare them against other, more proper, peer-reviewed studies.
viking sword making technology was better in almost every way
I like you.
EDIT: Holy fucking shit Scott, your friend is whacked out.
EDIT: Holy fucking shit Scott, your friend is whacked out.
I'm still under the impression that he's been warped by some charismatic silver tongued college kid who is feeding him either LSD or LOTS of pot and is filling him up with crazy... (I believe it's the other guy in the above comments).
Friend of guy: I know exactly what you speak of Scott Johnson, and you are dead wrong. I indeed have put in COUNTLESS hours of research. I have scoured the interwebs and made my own decisions based on info from all sides of every argument. You should use more credible links besides wikipedia and government websites.
"Namely, fluoride levels of up to 1.0 ppm in drinking water did not cause enamel fluorosis in most people and only mild enamel fluorosis in a small percentage of people. "
How do you know they regulate fluoride down to 1.0 ppm? The word most isn't that convincing for me btw. Fluoridation might help against cavities, but is no where near as effective as toothpaste is.
As for alien colonization, show me your "large amount of anthropological evidence on the evolution of religion and culture among the ancient world" that goes against it.
Me: Did I ever say that you should stop brushing your teeth? Fluoridation of the water was done to try and help poorer area's that had issues with tooth decay. (a very big problem) you might see issues now because people are not drinking tap water as much as they are drinking sugar water (soda) which is what is causes the up tick in cavities in this ... See Moremodern day. (thankifully I have really strong enamel.) So give me these sites that should be more credible then Pubmed a government data base of peer reviewed articles.... If you want to pay a game of shooting down sources I tell you I will win this game. As for Flourosis in most cases that do appear are just minor discolouration, which I might say should show that the flouride is indeed binding to the teeth... Better to have a little bit of discolouration then to lose all your teeth to cavities.
To start to take apart the larger "aliens created the pyriminds and the anicient world arguement" I point you to the wikipedia on how the pyriminds were created. I would point out that Matt did say there was NO explaination that didn't involve supernatural things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques I know you'll discount this because it's wikipedia, but just the fact that they have theories on how they were created goes against the whole "how could they ever have created that must be aliens".....
Back to the evolution of religion, I would say just google it, though there are many great books on this subject as well.
As for DNA, I'd say read a few textbooks on the subject before you look into "spirit DNA" and "Emotional response" because well your DNA doesn't show a "Emotional" response. I need a citation for that one. That's never come up before.
Guy's your falling for the trap that once one conspiracy is true in your mind, they all are. Evaluate these topics closer, read some of the fundemental works on these subjects, don't start with some philisophy PH.D. talking about evolution because honestly he's not a expert in it. Read Dawkin, Sagan and Gould then you'll understand Science a bit better.
I think another good point on the Pyramids thing - Have they ever actually BEEN to the pyramids, and seen them, up close, and in person? Great works they are, but Superhumanly perfect they most certainly are not.
As for alien colonization, show me your "large amount of anthropological evidence on the evolution of religion and culture among the ancient world" that goes against it.
ARRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Have you explained to them, very slowly and carefully, that it is THEIR responsibility to provide evidence to support THEIR idiotic claims? And then have you shredded their evidence and demonstrated rational explanations for their "evidence?"
Have you explained to them, very slowly and carefully, that it is THEIR responsibility to provide evidence to support THEIR idiotic claims? And then have you shredded their evidence and demonstrated rational explanations for their "evidence?"
They won't be convinced.
I did right before or after that comment... something about extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence or something along that line..
anyway... it continues...
Friend of Guy: Instead of pointlessly arguing, I'll point you in the right direction. http://www.lawofone.info/ Go ahead and shoot down my sources, but at least try and read a good portion of it.
So I did a bit of research on the law of one, and I'm pretty sure it's a timecube....
"The Law of One may be one of the most important documents available to mankind. The Law of One, spoken through Carla Rueckert by a channeled entity/social memory complex known as Ra, covers the entire gamut of topics pertaining to the evolution of life, and consciousness, from the quantum level all the way through the universal level. The Ra Material is a true gift to mankind."
The Law of One, spoken through Carla Rueckert by a channeled entity/social memory complex known as Ra, covers the entire gamut of topics pertaining to the evolution of life, and consciousness, from the quantum level all the way through the universal level. The Ra Material is a true gift to mankind.
Me: So wait, your going to disregard my peer reviewed scientific sources and my explanations that involve no supernatural elements to explain how things like the pyramids are made but your going to lead me to a page that was channeled by some guy and is supposed to be the voice of Ra... What proof do you have, do you have any evidence that this guy in ... See More1982 wasn't just a schizophrenic, delusional or a fraud. A claim that someone is channeling a god or alien through them is a extraordinary claim it requires evidence to be believed. Occam's Razor points to the simpler answer is most likely the real one. In this case is it more likely that someone is channeling a being from another world or is it more likely it's one of the other reasons above.
If Ra is real why has he not communicated since this time and done so with different people, how did they know they were going to communicate and be ready to talk to a particular "god" why would it have been Ra. Why not the president of the US or the UN or some other country. Why does he talk in general terms and not tell us of a technology we could use or technique to prove his existence? What about all the other people who have claimed to have channeled other beings are they all lying? if they are all lying what makes this one any different?
Guy, you realize that when you say the government is this evil world order you should look around to some high ranking officials in your extended family. Are they all part of the conspiracy as well?
You both need to keep asking questions, you've started to do so but you fell short at this point with this book of one, if your going to question the bible how can you not question this book of one. At least the bible has a crap ton of history behind it. You would be best to take a course or two in logic and critical thinking. Your minds are not trained yet, but you might not be far from the logical path. Turn your critical eyes upon yourself and see what this looks like from the outside.
Don't stop questioning just remember to question your own belief's.
My edit: "See what this looks like from the outside." Spoiler alert: It looks crazy.
Comments
Everyone wants science to be the thing on the left, but it's really the thing on the right. You need to conduct a whole lot of different experiments, each testing a single controlled variable, on a wide variety of subjects over a long period of time, before you can actually determine something. Yes, this is a huge problem. However, there is also a very large problem with people disbelieving anyone in a lab coat, scientist or not, and thinking that they can figure something out on their own despite having no functional knowledge in that field. We have experts for a reason. It's impossible to actually do everything you need to do all by yourself. Sure, people will go with it, but it's bullshit, and the whole "sure, they're wrong, but it's harmless" mentality ensures that people will remain ignorant for a long time to come. The problem is that, when you fool yourself, you allow yourself to become susceptible to fooling. Then, you open yourself up to being scammed by something truly harmful.
The world is full of deceitful people who would love to take your money from you. Many of them are very good at appearing to be legitimate while actually being little better than snake oil salesman. You could say that they're doing no harm, and on an individual level you are probably correct. However, in totality, permitting such hogwash only contributes to a widespread acceptance of fallacious beliefs, and that will hurt everyone in the long run. I'm mostly with you, except that personal tests aren't necessarily valid. I say "research, don't believe." It's really impractical to test every claim you're given via experimentation; however, even a minimal amount of research and education will yield a more robust opinion.
Guy: This is our reality
Me: Not really, it's just we get more busy and less down time. It has nothing to do with "time" acceleration. We personally get more busy and you know the old saying "time flies when your having fun" it really means "Time flies when your busy"
Friend of Guy: Both sayings are correct, but why do we "get more busy"? The system has people stuck in mechanical timing. We aren't machines.
Guy: In the history of humanity, it is < 1% of our time that we have had the concept of a "9 to 5 job, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year" as the "right" and mainstream thing to do. Yet anyone who tries to break this new mold are shunned by society. Take Holden Caulfield for example, who saw through this "phony" life. The Matrix has you.
Other non-crazy person: I don't understand your point. Before the 9 to 5 job was created, the "right" thing was either to work in a factory for 12 hours a day or family farming (which typically took all day). It has only been with industrialization that many middle- to low- income people have had leisure time to spend not working for subsistence or survival. ... See MoreEvidence of this can be seen in the rise of clubs and associations for middle-class people in the late-1700 to early 1800s. We actually have more leisure time and less working time than any other age has had, but the dawn of the information age (making the gathering of information and entertainment more convenient), the increase in education and service industries (providing a wealth of services, opportunities, and additional education not attained by/possible for middle classes until the 1800-1900s) and the commodification of leisure time (video games, movies, etc, etc) has given us a sense that we have to be in perpetual motion or have something to keep us occupied at all times and in order to be in fashion... making time acceleration seem more a product of the mind-set of the industrio-capitalist system into which we all have bought to various extents simply by purchasing goods. I also don't understand what other mold you would like to offer against the mainstream, unless you are planning to revert to family farming or begging? One rational alternative would be to focus on less commodification (ie buy less stuff) ..Also, I thought that the point that the man was trying to make was that is actually speeding up (which may have had more to do with his apparent extensive psychadelic drug use than actual reality). But maybe I have missed the argument completelyt?
Friend of Guy: Well miss long story, what is actual reality?
Can you define what is real? If it is just something you can feel or touch, real is just electrical signals interpreted by your brain.
As far as industrialization goes, this created "work."
Family farming or self-reliance was not thought of as work, it was just simple living. This simple living ... See Morewas spread throughout the entire day, so no time schedules were necessary. Relying on civilization to provide "work", shelter, or food/water is slavery. Relying upon oneself is the only way to freedom. Only you should be responsible for what you learn. At least family farming created communities. Communities are an endangered species nowadays.
What if everything you knew about the world was wrong?
What if things that were labled "good" in society were acually bad? The same applies to the opposite.
What if you asked so many questions you never actually achieved anything. Look, the only thing you truly know exists is yourself. Everything else could be all a dream for all you know and care, however reality is whatever ... See Moreyou are perceiving, barring you being a part of some crazy experiment you have to assume that the reality you are perceiving is the reality you have to deal with otherwise your going to find yourself walking into intersections and getting yourself hit by a car or walking off a cliff believing it's not there. Functionally we have to trust in a certain degree of reality.
What is good or bad, well those are relative conceptions however there are many schools of ethics which one can use to figure out what is good or bad without resorting in the messy realm of gods and demigods. Good can be perceived on many levels, What is good for Earth, what is good for that bird over there and what is good for you and I can be radically different. Utilitarianism is the ethical philosophy of making ethical choices with a emphasis on maximizing the benefits while created the smallest amount of negative consequences. Humanism is making the right choices for Humanity (and not relying on supernatural help). As someone who generally falls in the utilitarianism Humanist to behave ethically or “good†for Humanity, I have to attempt to behave in ways that are good for the Human race as a whole. This could involve doing things that are negative to both the planet or smaller groups of Humanity that might endanger Humanity as a whole. I could go about a couple of different other philosophies and even give a evolutionary “good†if so desired. So in reality the good is a subject term determined by the individual/family/society. One calls that relative but I'm not sure it's as relative as it appears.
Communities? Endangered? Or just evolving. Much has been said about the death of the “local†communities, however it still exists for those who want to make of it. I learned in High school and College to get involved and from that I've never felt I've lacked a family (not counting blood). I have friends and associates that I talk to regularly all over the world, a network of people to debate with and trade philosophies. People who you would have lost contact with 30 years ago we are now able to keep in contact with. The web helps inform me of social events and aspects of friends lives I would not have heard about. We have the ability to expand outside of our limited geography more then we ever have. Does this cause us to spend less time with our neighbors? Probably, but there are still many local organizations everywhere that you can be involved in.
As for your point about only you should be responsible for what you learn, well that's college, before we had the institution of a public education the literacy rate was abysmally low. Obviously our education system needs more work but I wouldn't say that we should go to a point where people are not held to educational standards. As for simple living, those people worked their entire lives away. Without civilization life would be short brutal and cruel. The slavery you talk of is only what you create yourself, we fortunately live in a place where your future isn't worked out totally for you..
Guy: Wow this is a lot to respond to.
First off what McKenna said in the video was that this is in no way a product of human activities. He was simply stating a natural law of our universe. But seeing as no one is talking about The Universe.......
Lets consider a few little known important pieces of information. Combined, the world produces enough ... See Morefood to feed each and every person on Earth three times over. This means that TOMORROW, world hunger could be solved. Instead, most of it is never even eaten, leaving thousands dying of starvation. Cannabis, currently classified as a schedule I narcotic, is a proven cure for cancer, and well over a few hundred other highly common diseases/sicknesses/ailments, and has never killed a person. Instead, we produce new laboratory synthetics that all cause more harm than good, getting these companies filthy rich as people die. Each year when they invent a new vaccine, it goes straight to the required list, no questions asked. The government wants to make everyone carry an "all-info-in-one" RFID tracking national ID cards. If that isn't every criminals dream, idk what is. They tell you that college is the one and only road to success, and yet universities are infants compared to human history. The government says that carbon is causing global warming, and yet the ocean is the leading contributor to the carbon cycle. Carbon tax my ass. In every US state, there are FEMA camps made with barbed wire facing INWARDS!!! The "personal life" is long dead. The gov buys information from Google, Apple, etc, places cameras in every building and street corner, tracks credit cards (and is making cash slowly obsolete) on and on and on so that with a push of a button they know everything you have ever done your whole life. Each and every single one of these problems could be fixed with a single stroke of a pen. There is no question there. And yet they don't give a f*ck about you. They helped as little as possible with Haiti, Katrina, the financial crisis, and so on, and sometimes only made the problem worse.
So, when the government tells me this:
"The American family has two children, a stay at home mom, one house, two cars, and a dad who works 9 to 5..." you know the story;
then do you seriously expect me to bow my head and conform?
Americans all proles who wake up and go to work or school because we are told they are told to. They drive a car because they have no choice. They use a credit card because cash is worthless. They eat fast food. They come home and watch Faux news or CNN, no difference, they both lie constantly. They drink water containing fluoride and other lethal chemicals. They get vaccines containing RFID chips, becoming a part of the system.
I had the choice, then I would grow my own food and make my own medicine. I would collect rain water and use solar power for electronics. I would be completely off the grid in every literal sense. I would find a group of friends I trust and live in a neighborhood together with everyone. Each person would do the same basic survival things I just mentioned, and we would always lend a hand to anyone in need.We would have absolutely no need of debt, also known as money, because we would be free. This is a true community. A place that is always safe, always sticks together, and never owes each other a thing, because as good people debt is a foreign concept. A community is NOT the people at work or school, or even on Facebook, as much as you are told so each day by "society". Sure, in all these places you can collaborate ideas and have the time of your life with some of the other people, but in your time of need, how many will help without being asked? They would shrug you off as another bump in the road and go back to their life of slavery.
This is NOT the land of the free.
First, the reason I brought up industrialization creating work and bringing meaning to leisure activities was in response to the apparent assumption that the speeding up of time relates to this changed understanding and to note that there is now more leisure time. True, before industrialization, there was no separation between the two, at least for recording purposes. However, this fact does not imply that people were "freer" or less busy than people in the 21st century. With industrialization and the move (willing or unwilling) of larger numbers of people to cities, people became more able to partake in cultural and leisure activities and increasingly joined social and educational groups. This change in behavior on the part of a large group of society perceived that leisure was more readily available and desirable. While no system of order in society is without its faults, the move to industrialization has provided more opportunities for and the commodification of leisure time.
The second part of your comments on the reliance on civilization for basic needs (shelter, food/water) and knowledge as a form of "slavery" is a lovely post-structural reaction to the industrialization. While it would be nice to discuss subverting mainstream realities, like most critical theories, this falls short in the "actual practicable solutions" area. Given your comments, to throw off all slavery, people should become solitary creatures who fend for themselves and rely on no others. However, this existence in practice would return everyone back to a Hobbesian-like world of the survival of the fittest. Like the theoretical world itself, this world can never actually exist given the current status of world development. Consequently, all reliance cannot be thrown off, and a certain level of acceptance of the civilization by all peoples must be attained for any person to survive and exist. If one acts in a completely Hobbesian manner, they would very quickly find themselves imprisoned.
Finally, I agree with Scott on the whole community issue. I think community, like so many other points you made, is subjective. I think it is more reliant on the effort people put into maintaining their community (whoever is included). I have been fortunate enough to travel quite a bit, but have been able (via social media and the internet) to stay in touch with people from my hometown, my family, and other people that I have met in my travels. I think the community is there, but maybe what it typically constitutes (a virtual or highly dispersed rather than a geographical area) has dramatically changed.
Wow, it is impossible to write short answers to the comments! Since I have finally finished this (somewhat verbose) ditty, I am going to bed -- it's uber-late here!
PS While I enjoy the philosophical discussion, I still am genuinely confused about the actual comments made by this man, since he said it was the acceleration of time in the space-time continuum (what I am going to call actual time). I was correct in my understanding of his point, yes? Bueller... Bueller?
Guy: Looks like we were writing at the same time haha or I would have mentioned your last post!
As far as what McKenna says about time, it means quite a few things. In a literal sense, time has been proven mathematically to be "speeding up". Time exists as cycles of events. Human existence is littered with dark ages, war time, peace time, technological ... See Moreadvances, and so on. If these events were all charted, the closer you get to "now", the faster these cycles repeat. that's the basic jist of it. We "get more busy" because the natural cycles of human events are exponentially getting shorter. Two millenium ago Jesus walked the Earth. The industrial revolution, giving us maybe 90% of ALL our technology, was only 300 years ago. 100 years ago there were no aeroplanes, cars, or electricity. Half a decade ago DNA was discovered. 20 years ago email was about the extent of the Internet. 5 years ago Facebook was located under some guys desk. Just in the past year 3D movies came out. Last month the iPad came out. This is the effect of time on our lives. If people advanced at a comstant rate, we would probably be just now discovering concrete. It just so happens (no coincidence at all) that the mathematical limit of this acceleration converges in December 21, 2012 @ 11:11 AM. On October 23, 2011 the current cycle will end. The next one will end just months before the end/beginning, then 5 days, then 2.5 minutes, a few seconds.........
I know this is hard to believe. We are trained to see time = money instead of time = nature. Not even our calender or clocks make sense. If you ever have the time, basically my whole account is a plethora of information on every important topic. Just stArt with one that interests you and go from there. I don't see how so many people could independantly say the same thing and be wrong about it.
First, Scott.
Yes, I know that reality is whatever you are currently perceiving. You just have to remember that there are other realities. Common sense. The mind can only be on one reality at a time though. You can go daydreaming and get hit by traffic, but that's not at all what I was suggesting.
Onto your good vs bad argument. This is not the direction I wanted this subject to go, but o well. I believe in staying human and helping out fellow man. Seriously though you should read up on the Law of One, this will help you simplify what you tried o say about this subject. I didn't mean for this direction, rather the direction of legal vs illegal. Things labeled as illegal are actually good for you, except for meth, cocaine, and other artificial drugs. Things that are legal like thousands of pharmaceuticals that help you get better or stay healthy actually hurt you or do a poor job with side effects. Artificial drugs are not the way to go. Believe me, there are natural cures for every ailment, you just have to find the information. Just because they aren't publicized like pharmaceuticals, doesn't mean they don't exist. No, I am not a hippie.
When I said communities, I should have said physical neighborhoods or local communities close to your place of residence. These pretty much don't exist, at least in my neighborhood and most that I've seen. People are occupied with entertainment indoors, but that's a different conversation. But yes, there are countless organizations I could join to form a community of sorts, but I was just stuck on neighborhoods as I see that place very often. The world wide web is a great community though. In my opinion, it is the greatest accomplishment of the "civilized" world. It successfully connects most everyone in the world to form a planetary conscience. You can learn more on the internet than in any school you go to. That is just a simple fact. You can learn about anything, instantly, at your own pace. You just have to know how to search for what you're looking for. We should all have a strong desire to learn and hold ourselves to high standards, but sadly, most people don't care about learning as much as they do a piece of paper that says they graduated.
As for simple living, think before you had to sell things for money in an industrialized world. Thousands of years back. The truth is hard to find, but it is out there. Communities of people taught to know everything about the planet they lived on. They were not uneducated cavemen at all. They were far more human than we are today, and in many ways more advanced. Truth has been hidden only for keeping a relatively few people in control. They know the real knowledge of the world, especially history. We can all rely upon ourselves a little bit more than we currently do. For example, grow some of your own food, or maybe create some energy to power your house. Basically, with today's technology, you can use it to just rely less upon a fragile system and more yourself and your community of whatever sort.
What happens when the electricity goes out for a week? Non-packaged food from grocery stores spoils. No running water. No lights. The list can go on. Riots and looting prevail. In better terms, shit hits the fan. SHTF scenarios have happened before, just look at New Orleans, or just New York City when the electricity went out for a week. Just one week can case a lot of damage to society. So, I'm just here promoting a little self-reliance. You don't need to go into the wilderness and try and survive day to day, you can stay where you are, just be prepared SHTF scenarios, that is all. Not to mention growing your own food is far more healthy than anything you buy in stores.
I hope this cleared my generalities up.
To Other Non crazy person,
What you said about industrialization and "people became more able to partake in cultural and leisure activities and increasingly joined social and educational groups" is false. There was plenty of culture and leisure activities before industrialization. The thought that ancient civilization didn't have these ... See Morefreedoms is a sham. Just do more research on ancient civilizations. We are taught to actually believe that they were slaves and we are somehow better off today. History that we learn today in places of "education" is just accepted and unquestioned, although it is fake. People that are in control of this world know the real history. I'm sorry to say it but we're just cattle if we believe the history that we were taught in school.
And as for reliance, just don't put all your apples in one basket. Never rely on governments, rely on real people.
Next, the topic of self education. Spare the few rotten apples, I can't really say I have ever had a bad teacher. However, in ALL subjects, including math, art, and the more obvious history and government classes, there are many topics that they are just not allowed by the government to teach to the general population. For example, take the long list of facts I previously posted. All untouchable topics in places of education. And yet, it is literally just a few clicks away. I believe that the internet is the one final oasis of the human mind/spirit, at least in the sense of community. The FCC is trying to help us by being against Net Neutrality. Everyone else is probably for it in the government. If you didn't know, NN is what would allow ISPs to filter information. This information of course being everything they keep out of schools. They could blacklist thousands of websites, all while getting rich off their 'donkeys'. But for now, this is not the case. Start by leaving no questions unasked. Fish around to this or that topic, and start to see the truth. Then widen your horizons. Just keep thinking "What if. What if this is all real. What if when SHTF, I won't have a clue what to do. I'd better find out all I can." Then you will start to awaken to the truth, to reality. You will start to see the pointless monotony of day to day life. If we as people hadn't been corrupted by negative influences toward industry and corruption so many years ago, only then can we say communities are alive and strong. In this situation, we would still have airplanes, radios, TVs and even digital music players, but we just wouldn't be corrupted by them. There would be no "celebrities", because everyone would be equal. Truly equal. There wouldn't be corporations, but there would still be malls and market places in some sense. There would be no states and country borders, but still towns and villages. The global society would all work together as one. Instead of a society, what we have in reality is a push towards global government. There would be no government in a world free of the influences of service-to-self ways of thinking. The society would function as one mind, one brain, truly connected to every other person, (or other-self). Locally there would always be a strong flow of public *free* trade, both physical and informational. The internet would be at it's full potential, and free of the lies and false, deceptive information you will need to watch out for.
There is always the possibility of change. If this information and way of thinking get out, there will be a "hundredth monkey effect." Everyone will start to wake up to the truth, and then we will be saved. I hope you see how important it is to teach yourself and not to listen to the media, public entertainment industries, both run by the government, which is run by the banks.
Me: So much to respond to in a system not designed to handle this sort of conversation...
I'll be quick though, the government is a tool, made up of people (I'll go back to the fact that john said to trust people) the government can't be big brother and perfect and incompetent at the same time. In reality it is somewhere in the middle.
Now let... refute guy for a few minutes because he has made a few claims that go way outside of the arena of philosophy and directly deal with some real world issues that we definitely have conclusive science on. One, Fluoride in the water, something that has been talked about since the 1940’s if you actually did some research on it that didn’t involve alt. websites full of conspiracies theories you would find that fluoridation in the water has been responsible for general improvement of dental health that we have acquired since we started to do this. RFID in vaccines? I’m not even sure where to start with that. First there is no evidence that there are RFID in vaccines a quick search on this topic leads you to only sites where “alternative†theories are purposed. If this was really going on, there would be much more information about it. The government can’t cover up anything let alone something that well 1,000s of doctors would notice. You have recommended a few books in this discussion so let me name a book that you should definitely take a look at Carl Sagan’s “The Demon Haunted world: Science as a candle in the dark†and Michael Shermer “Why People believe weird things: Pseudoscience, Superstition and other confusions of our timeâ€. You are obviously searching for the truth but without critical thinking skills and a rational mind you will be taken advantage of (specifically 2012 theories and the like).
I’m sorry if the above was a bit more critical then I wanted it to be but I talk as someone who has been in your shoes. I fell into things like “Astral Projection†and other occult things that no one ever really talked about and explored those subjects to the limits that I was able however as I explored I read more and more things that thoroughly debunked these “mystical†experiences, in the end I was left with Lucid dreaming (which is real and routed in science) but had abandoned all the more “metaphysical†ideas. I also started down the path I see you heading as well and all I can say is while you question the government/religion and other things make sure at the same time you are also applying the same criticism to your own position.
As for friend of guy’s points, I’ll take them on when I have more time since they are more philosophical in nature. While it might sound like I’m just defending “The Man†I believe we should hold people to what they have actually done, not what we think they have done. Question your own theories as well as the alternative theories that sound so convincing but may not have a lot of evidence behind them.
Guy: I will answer more later, but for now a question. What was it that made you change your mind?
But to your greater question, you are correct it is good to keep your mind open just don't open it so much that it falls out. It's good to open to the possibilities that present themselves but always remember to be skeptical. Losing your ability to critically analyzes a situation leaves you open to many pseudosciences and frauds.
Guy: Watch the whole series if you want cold hard evidence
Me: Watching it now, nothing that can pass the
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" about 8:58 into the video it has a guy who talks about Chariot of the Gods and how it is a neat way to see the world full of adventure, that's all well in good I wanted the world to be full of vampires and dark evil that I could hunt but the world was ... See Morenot that way. Look I'm not ruling out that there is intelligent life out there, probability says there should be other life out there, but there is no evidence that does not require you to build a theory and then cherry pick the evidence to fit your theory. That's a mistake that Creationists make as well. They have a theory but no evidence so they only take in the evidence that agrees with their theory and ignore or downplay conflicting evidence. This is called confirmation bias and is a bane to our existence.
Take the Nasca Desert Drawings, the documentary mentions the "non-alien visitor" reasons in passing because it doesn't confirm with the narrative they are trying to lay out. Isn't the explanation simpler to conclude that like many ancient civilizations they believed their gods looked down upon them from the heavens. http://www.onagocag.com/nazca.html
Guy: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/120963
http://www.naturalnews.com/028663_health_care_technology.html
All individually good, but put all this information together...
Me: put all that information together to say what? that they were giving people RFID bracelets voluntary so they could track the spread of the virus and the vaccine? or the fact that Mass. wanted to make a quarantine law in case the flue was truly a disaster that they feared they could get people vaccinated quickly and efficiently?
There was no forced vaccination.. but this was just like the normal flu shot they have every year but to a more specific strain.... Those vaccines don't have to be retested for safety because they are fundamentally the same. Forced vaccination was a joke anyway they didn't have enough of the vaccine to give to all the at risk populations let alone everyone else.
Friend of Guy: So would you say that all these ancient civilizations all had these similar beliefs all at the same time and it was all coincidence? I haven't found any evidence to disprove that aliens colonized this planet.
I just wanted to touch upon fluoride. It was made to be applied to the teeth, not ingested. Fluoridation is not science at all.
Me: Ummmm... It's called PubMed and it's full of studies done on water fluoridation. http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/OralHealth/Topics/Fluoride/TheStoryofFluoridation.htm you realize part of the way we figured out fluoride was effective against cavities was they noticed that people who lived in an area where the water was naturally high in fluoride had less ... See Morecavities then people who lived in areas that did not..... Then doing some experiments to prove efficiency. I don't know if you know this but I work in a pre-clinical lab where we conduct studies to determine if a drug will cause detrimental effects if taken by pregnant women. This is just part of the testing a drug has to go through before it can be brought to market (mandated by the government).
As for "I haven't found any evidence to disprove that aliens colonized this planet" this is a logical fallacy see this entry on the logical fallacy "Argument from ignorance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance. There is not a plethora of evidence that aliens have visited our world but at the same time there is large amount of anthropological evidence on the evolution of religion and culture among the ancient world.
As the stuff above..... wow.. lots of writing, if anything didn't cut right it's because of facebook, a lot of the writing might be pretty crappy...
Then at that point you have to admit to yourself "Guess what, this is what the research says, and it makes sense, but I don't know for sure". That's the end I've come to on most of this stuff, which is why I say you have to make pragmatic decisions based on results at some point or another.
I take the standpoint on most things of "I don't know for sure, but this is what works for me". That goes from knife forging to writing code. Some people do things differently, and it works and I just don't know how.
So I agree with you totally, testing everything isn't a practical solution. But research doesn't give you absolute certainty either. So the end result is really that you admit that you don't know a whole hell of a lot for sure, and that doesn't satisfy most people. I love the comic you put up there btw. My problem is when people make a religion out of anything, be it science or fake medicine, when they should just admit that they don't have any way to know for sure. But for most practical purposes research does exactly what you said it does, and is valuable for practical decision making.
As for the 'harmless stupid fantasy' thing, I'm not a fan of switching people from one religion to another or pissing everyone I know off, so for the most part I just leave it be. I normally don't go off on people who compare a katana to a longsword, or this type of blade to that type. to use a practical example; most people don't know the first thing about what they are saying, and it makes them happy, so on a practical level why should it be my place to piss them off and tell them that the viking sword making technology was better in almost every way? People will always hold beliefs contrary to your own, and it they didn't then things would be pretty boring in my opinion.
At any rate, much respect to you, Sir. I enjoy being able to indulge in this conversation. Normally people don't understand a single word I'm saying about this stuff.
If you want to test him, see if he believes in Tacmars. He's probably never heard of them, but I'll wager they'll rapidly be incorporated into his overall narrative. If they do, you've proven that he's basically barely thinking, but simply regurgitating chunks of memes that fit within his batshit worldview.
So, my suggestion is thus. Introduce Tacmars to him as though you now understand what he's been saying all along. "You might be right, man. I just don't know anymore." Ask him to investigate Tacmars for you, since he "knows about this sort of thing." Watch him buy in. Let it incorporate. Then, repeat with an even crazier piece of batshit. Give him plenty of rope. Eventually, lead him to Time Cube.
The hope is that he'll start to try and debunk the craziness at some point to YOU. Once this happens, you're winning. Literally copy/paste his arguments defending his own batshit to defend the batshit of which he is suddenly dubious. What you'll be doing effectively is holding up a mirror and forcing him to argue with it. If there is any intelligence left within him, he won't be able to escape his own gaze.
Either you'll win in the end, or he's past the event horizon of logic and reason.
The way to do it is look at the research and say, "This is the best answer we have right now, so that's what I'm going with." Your own research, by and large, is faulty. If you want to do your own studies, you at least need to compare them against other, more proper, peer-reviewed studies. I like you.
EDIT: Holy fucking shit Scott, your friend is whacked out.
Friend of guy: I know exactly what you speak of Scott Johnson, and you are dead wrong. I indeed have put in COUNTLESS hours of research. I have scoured the interwebs and made my own decisions based on info from all sides of every argument.
You should use more credible links besides wikipedia and government websites.
"Namely, fluoride levels of up to 1.0 ppm in drinking water did not cause enamel fluorosis in most people and only mild enamel fluorosis in a small percentage of people. "
How do you know they regulate fluoride down to 1.0 ppm? The word most isn't that convincing for me btw. Fluoridation might help against cavities, but is no where near as effective as toothpaste is.
As for alien colonization, show me your "large amount of anthropological evidence on the evolution of religion and culture among the ancient world" that goes against it.
Me: Did I ever say that you should stop brushing your teeth? Fluoridation of the water was done to try and help poorer area's that had issues with tooth decay. (a very big problem) you might see issues now because people are not drinking tap water as much as they are drinking sugar water (soda) which is what is causes the up tick in cavities in this ... See Moremodern day. (thankifully I have really strong enamel.) So give me these sites that should be more credible then Pubmed a government data base of peer reviewed articles.... If you want to pay a game of shooting down sources I tell you I will win this game. As for Flourosis in most cases that do appear are just minor discolouration, which I might say should show that the flouride is indeed binding to the teeth... Better to have a little bit of discolouration then to lose all your teeth to cavities.
To start to take apart the larger "aliens created the pyriminds and the anicient world arguement" I point you to the wikipedia on how the pyriminds were created. I would point out that Matt did say there was NO explaination that didn't involve supernatural things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques I know you'll discount this because it's wikipedia, but just the fact that they have theories on how they were created goes against the whole "how could they ever have created that must be aliens".....
Back to the evolution of religion, I would say just google it, though there are many great books on this subject as well.
As for DNA, I'd say read a few textbooks on the subject before you look into "spirit DNA" and "Emotional response" because well your DNA doesn't show a "Emotional" response. I need a citation for that one. That's never come up before.
Guy's your falling for the trap that once one conspiracy is true in your mind, they all are. Evaluate these topics closer, read some of the fundemental works on these subjects, don't start with some philisophy PH.D. talking about evolution because honestly he's not a expert in it. Read Dawkin, Sagan and Gould then you'll understand Science a bit better.
Have you explained to them, very slowly and carefully, that it is THEIR responsibility to provide evidence to support THEIR idiotic claims? And then have you shredded their evidence and demonstrated rational explanations for their "evidence?"
They won't be convinced.
anyway... it continues...
Friend of Guy: Instead of pointlessly arguing, I'll point you in the right direction.
http://www.lawofone.info/
Go ahead and shoot down my sources, but at least try and read a good portion of it.
So I did a bit of research on the law of one, and I'm pretty sure it's a timecube....
"The Law of One may be one of the most important documents available to mankind. The Law of One, spoken through Carla Rueckert by a channeled entity/social memory complex known as Ra, covers the entire gamut of topics pertaining to the evolution of life, and consciousness, from the quantum level all the way through the universal level. The Ra Material is a true gift to mankind."
If Ra is real why has he not communicated since this time and done so with different people, how did they know they were going to communicate and be ready to talk to a particular "god" why would it have been Ra. Why not the president of the US or the UN or some other country. Why does he talk in general terms and not tell us of a technology we could use or technique to prove his existence? What about all the other people who have claimed to have channeled other beings are they all lying? if they are all lying what makes this one any different?
Guy, you realize that when you say the government is this evil world order you should look around to some high ranking officials in your extended family. Are they all part of the conspiracy as well?
You both need to keep asking questions, you've started to do so but you fell short at this point with this book of one, if your going to question the bible how can you not question this book of one. At least the bible has a crap ton of history behind it. You would be best to take a course or two in logic and critical thinking. Your minds are not trained yet, but you might not be far from the logical path. Turn your critical eyes upon yourself and see what this looks like from the outside.
Don't stop questioning just remember to question your own belief's.
My edit: "See what this looks like from the outside." Spoiler alert: It looks crazy.