Scojo, they should pay you a zillion dollars to work in a nut house because your super power is tolerating crazy talk.
It's a lot easier online because I can write "OMG YOU ARE FUCKING CRAZY HOW CAN YOU EVEN THINK THAT YOU JUST DODGED MY ENTIRE STATEMENT" and then I can erase it and write a more even tempered response.
Friend of Guy: Look, you can believe whatever you want, even if they are mainstream theories, however scientific they may be, however much evidence there is, I just prefer not to be mainstream. You can criticize me all you want, but you have no idea who I am, or how I think, you can't understand how much I question myself. The Law of One really does seem ... See Moreunbelievable at first. I thought so myself. I mean it is just some crazy person saying his name over and over again. How could all those interviews have a word of truth in them? You might be able to understand that it would be impossible for Ra to communicate through a person of the system. After I really delved into it, it just all makes sense for me. I have decided to believe in some weird possessed person that has no "proof." I guess that makes me insane. You decide for yourself.
When SHTF, somehow "i told you so" just won't quite say it.
Me: Friend of guy,, explain how it started to make sense? because your not making sense. My views are mainstream now? I wish it was but I follow a path of reason and logic. (I.E. I'm an Atheist) I don't care what you think really, I do care about guy's opinion and since ... you seem to influence him (or at least have similar opinions) I have to care a bit about your opinion to. (plus I like a good discussion)
but I'm also a curious person, what caused you to become interested after you delved into it? Why are you choosing to believe in something with less evidence then the mainstream religions (and significantly less). The bit of evidence you do have is from a source that there are many others claiming the similar or different things that you don't believe? Why are you dead set on believing this, I see you turn your skepticism on other things but why not this as well?
So when is the SHTF again? So I can be ready for the I told you so?
regardless, I'll continue to debunk claims, it's what I do.
So I agree with you totally, testing everything isn't a practical solution. But research doesn't give you absolute certainty either. So the end result is really that you admit that you don't know a whole hell of a lot for sure, and that doesn't satisfy most people. I love the comic you put up there btw. My problem is when people make a religion out of anything, be it science or fake medicine, when they should just admit that they don't have any way to know for sure. But for most practical purposes research does exactly what you said it does, and is valuable for practical decision making.
Well, there's no such thing as "certainty." That's another issue entirely. Yes, you're absolutely right that you really can only do enough work to find a practical solution. That's really what science does; we investigate things in order to find a practical application, and then investigate ways to improve or expand said practical application.
The way to do it is look at the research and say, "This is the best answer we have right now, so that's what I'm going with." Your own research, by and large, is faulty. If you want to do your own studies, you at least need to compare them against other, more proper, peer-reviewed studies.
Yeah, I agree with you 100% here. Sounds like we're pretty much exactly on the same page, I just didn't express myself as well as I would have liked due to the rage boiling through my veins at the time. It's the German-Russian-Irish blood combination. I swear there is no other mix on this planet that can feel rage more fully.
Posted By: Sovaviking sword making technology was better in almost every way
I like you.
Sir, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship lol.
Other guy: Last I knew I didn't think conspiracy theories were as mainstream as say, evolution or Unitarian. So you don't care what I think, but o wait, you have to care just enough to have a argument and to get to know one of Guy's crazy friends.
I didn't come here for an argument. I came here to wake people up. Obviously you have been in a somewhat ... See Moredifferent way. Just ask yourself, what if other guy is right? You will probably just dismiss this, but what if you are the one who doesn't ask enough questions? Arguments about 'logic' seem to float your boat. It doesn't matter what I say, you will always come up with a new attack angle. That's fine, congratulations on being a tactician. But until you recognize the system, until you see the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you, you are still part of the system.
But, because you won't believe a word I say, let's go back to self-reliance. Just stock up on food Scott. That's right, just go out to Sam's club and buy a big bag of rice.
Me: I came here to wake Guy up and in return hopefully get through to you, unfortunately, you would rather spout on about how I wouldn't listen to your proof even if you presented irrefutable proof, while in reality you're having trouble answering even my simplest questions or even backing up your belief in even some half-assed fundie "god did it sort of way". You'll just change the subject and act like I prosecuted you in some way. I came to this discussion to wake people up as well, the internet is full of crazy people spouting crazy things, and it's best that you find ways to determine the crazy from the sane (or at least half sane).
I come to you warning that you are delving into the crazy, take that as it may, I have no problems with crazy beliefs as long as you harm none and keep it to yourself.
However I am genuinely curious about how you arrived at this point. You could answer my above questions instead of dodging.
If you want to stop discussing this topic stop posting. I'm genuinely interested in those questions you haven't answered.
And as for self-reliance, it's good to be as self-reliant as possible, my dad taught me that but we can't all grow our own food because that would be inefficient as well as time consuming, society works as well as it does because we can efficiently make food so that someone else can be the teacher full time or the doctor, if we all took the time to be totally self-sufficient we'd be a lot less effective as a whole. (the industrial revolution destroyed the cottage industries).
Just ask yourself, what if other guy is right? You will probably just dismiss this, but what if you are the one who doesn't ask enough questions? Arguments about 'logic' seem to float your boat. It doesn't matter what I say, you will always come up with a new attack angle. That's fine, congratulations on being a tactician. But until you recognize the system, until you see the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you, you are still part of the system.
But, because you won't believe a word I say, let's go back to self-reliance. Just stock up on food Scott. That's right, just go out to Sam's club and buy a big bag of rice.
I hear you. My great grandfather once got pissed off when he was trying to fix a old old washing machine and picked it up and threw it. It took three guys to move the hunk of metal afterwards. I do martial arts to avoid going postal.
As for this guy, he's nuts. There is nothing to talk about any more. Maybe he'll lay off the crazy juice and come back around to sanity, but I wouldn't bet on it myself.
Holy shit Scott, I literally have a headache from catching up on this thread and I read it yesterday.
I'm of the opinion that these two are off of the deep-end, but there still may be hope. Do you know either of these two in real life? Maybe you could get "Guy" to sit down with you and talk one on one. In a setting like Facebook, he has a chance to collect his crazy shit and prepare it for you, and as already stated, there's a lot of copy-paste in that shit. I'm convinced that alone in a room with him, he'll give in in under an hour. If this doesn't happen, then try Rym's idea, because otherwise he's a lost cause.
Also, on the note of pot smoking and such, I feel that if this is drug induced, it's more of a LSD three times a week kind of thing. Pot won't do that shit to you, at least to someone who's not already batshit.
Guy: As far as my beginning down this path of self teaching, It is true that John showed me the beginning, a single article. But you can only lead a horse to water. I chose to walk the path, or more accurately dive head first down the rabbit hole. Every day we bounce this and that idea off each other, only holding on to things we both see to... See More be true. It's a kind of sanity check. Believe me, I question each and every thing I read. Sometimes it does seem insane. And yet I believe it. Why? Because I asked the question "what if", and took the red pill. Same as you. But I stayed in wonderland, and it is the real world. I have always felt disgusted towards those people who will only complain about this or that problem, and never make any move to do something about it. I will not be a hypocrite. I will not sit by and watch as people are dying of starvation while we throw out half our McDonald's food letting it waste. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7848886 I will not sit by as people are being shot in wars fought in streets. Or as FEMA camps are being set up all around us across the nation. http://www.campfema.com Or when the government releases plans to kill 90% of the world population LITERALLY IN STONE http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm and IN MAPS http://www.google.com/search?aq=1&oq=reserve+and+corridor+system+to+protect&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=simulated+reserve+and+corridor+system+to+protect+biodiversity all under the guise helping the environment. This is why they want carbon taxes to help fund FEMA, why they want us to believe in global warming, when in fact the entire solar system, every planet, is going through a natural warming cycle, and it is of NO CONSEQUENCE of human doings. (though I am all for alternative energy!) http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-other-planets-solar-system.htm I post so many links so you don't have to keep asking all the time. Some may be short and of questionably validity, but they all state cold hard infallible facts. Facts which you have still as of yet to even disprove a single one of, even when asked on multiple occasions. Seriously Scott, you can take the blue pill if you want, but I really thought you were smarter than this. Please tell me specifics, not just dancing around pointing fingers and ONLY talking about you, John and I. This is about the facts, not about us. Stay on topic. I could go on, but for now it's past twelve.
Me: "Some may be short and of questionably validity, but they all state cold hard infallible facts."
How can something be of questionable validity but also be cold hard infallible facts? Validity would be something borne out of fact, if it is questionable that would mean it is not necessarily fact.
Also very strange that we had a swine flu outbreak and we were not rounded up in camps, why is that? if that's what was going to happen? Also maybe you should get some outside people in your group... Your definitely sounding like your suffering from an echo chamber.
Hey I'm not one to complain about things and not do something about it, but ... See Moreyou don't have to believe crazy conspiracies to want to help the world. You have to do it by volunteering and getting out there. I encourage you to go out and help poor people or society in whatever way you can. That's why I am engaged in politics as a hobby.
Why the fuck are you up at 1am when you have work the next day arguing about this bull shit. Step away from the keyboard Scott, this shit is so not worth losing sleep.
Why the fuck are you up at 1am when you have work the next day arguing about this bull shit. Step away from the keyboard Scott, this shit is so not worth losing sleep.
Your "friend" is beyond hope. There is nothing you can say that will change his mind about his batshit. He'll live the rest of his live isolating himself from intelligent people and seeking out the company of others who "see the light." He'll fail at life with alarming consistency as he proceeds to remove any moderating influences, and probably has already all but written you off as yourself part of the conspiracy. He's basically replicating the same sort of messy bullshit logic that people like Robert Steele present: a sign that he's not entirely sentient at this point. He'll blame all failures on his personal persecution at best, at worst he'll become paranoid and dangerous, eventually becoming violent against the "system" and hurt someone.
My final advice is to try my suggestion before (the Medusa strategy). If you do not try it, then I will say that your friend is 100% beyond hope, and should be cut off. If you try it and fail, he should be cut off as well, but at least you tried. Give up on your current tactics: they have no chance of success. And if you cannot succeed, remove him has far from your life as possible: he's a dangerous liability.
A different thread of vaccinations..... This one will probably piss you off more.
Guy:
Me: You do realize that the invention of the Vaccine has saved probably more people in the world and animals then anything short of sterile technique.
Guy: yes, I absolutely do realize that. Penicillium Notatum was an absolutely revolutionary discovery. But when they put more than just vaccines in the vaccine, such as mercury, placenta, animal body parts, MF59, etc. Side affects of H1N1 vaccine: http://www.politicolnews.com/topics/side-effects-list-of-swine-flu-vaccine/
Me: you realize that in the case of Mercury it was just trace amount due to Thimersoal which is a preservative in vaccines and in most cases it was removed from vaccines for children under 6. The compound Thimersoal is an organic compound that contains mercury as one of the elements, note that mercury in a compound is different then mercury on it's own... See More...
Placenta??? never heard of that one..... citations please.
Animal body parts, well since vaccines are primarily made in chicken eggs, though as we go on they probably will be made in cell cultures and such. So I can't imagine why they wouldn't be made of animal body parts since they are anti-bodies created in a chicken egg....
MF59? Haven't heard anything bad about that... citation please.
As for the link (i'm at work so i didn't watch the Youtube video) but half of those claims don't even have citations and the referred to articles barely backup the claim or do not point to any larger trend.
Me: do you have any neutral sources? because things labeled "vactruth" "Novaccine" are not exactly sites that can be trusted to be unbiased. I'll start looking at the sources now but I just wanted to mention that before I continue
Guy: Ok, I will look seriously at any information you would like to share with me. But it makes you wonder, there is no ulterior motive to being against vaccines. They don't make money being against them, they don't get any kind of benefit to themselves at all. So then why are there so many independent organizations against it. The only reason to do something for no service to self would obviously be service to others. What do you think all these peoples motivation is for getting all this information out as best as they can?
Me: Ok, so going up through the links from the bottom, The diseases-viruses.suite101.com from what I got skimming it, it lists the common side effects that all vaccines have.
The next article at vactruth.com is definitely all over the place, it makes way more claims then I feel like fact checking but luckily it summarizes them at the bottom.
1. The vaccine contains squalene (MF59) which has not been tested for causing cancer.... See More
"First and foremost, there is no reason to worry about squalene because it simply is not present in vaccines in the US. According to Patricia El-Hinnawy, a spokesperson for the US Food and Drug Administration: “There is no squalene in any FDA-approved vaccine in the US. There is no squalene in any kind of seasonal flu vaccine or in the H1N1 vaccine.â€
2. The vaccine contains thimerosal, a known culprit in causing autism and neurological deficits.
"Thimerosal is a very effective preservative that has been used since the 1930s to prevent contamination in some multi-dose vials of vaccines. There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. The 2009-H1N1 influenza vaccines that FDA has licensed will be manufactured in several formulations, including pre-filled, single-dose syringes and nasal sprayers along with multi-dose vials. Only multi-dose vials of seasonal influenza vaccine will contain thimerosal to prevent potential contamination after the vial is opened. "
Also read a few more studies on whether vaccines cause autism, you'll find there is not a link between the two.
3. The vaccine curiously contains nonoxynol-9 used in spermicides.
I can't find anything that says vaccines actually have this. Even if it did would this matter? I'd have to find that it used.
4. The vaccine will likely cause (and spread) the flu.
No proof of this, some people will have already gotten the flu at the time of the vaccination as well as some others that will get light symptoms of the flu just like the normal flu shot.
5. No neurological testing will be done to ensure the vaccine is safe from harmful neurological side effects.
This is pretty much the same as a normal flu shot..
6. Monitoring for safety will last 13 months, well beyond the flu season.
See above, oh and by the way the H1N1 vaccine was tested at my lab for safety.
The next link doesn't link to a single scientific journal and the claims are similar to those I debunked above. The next link is the same..about the squalene...
finally the one from the Vatican, There are a few cell lines that have been derived from aborted fetuses, they were created before the ban was put into effect, these few lines in the US are vital to our biologic research and honestly the way we make vaccines there should be no trace of the cell line that helped create the vaccine...
Hope that helped. Oh by the way, one of my best friends is a PH.D. candidate working on the bird flu strain, if you want to talk to her about this, I'd be more then happen to send you her E-mail I'm sure she'd love to talk about this.
I'm not saying people are necessarily out there to profit at being anti-vaccine, it's more that they mean well but they do not have the facts straight. http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=308 (a opinion blog I found that talks about this pretty well) Just because you think you are saving the world from some threat doesn't mean the threat is... See More actually there or that you are on the right side. That's why you need to look at more then a few blogs on the internet that spout one sided opinions and look for neutral empirical sources of research, and read and understand the methodology. Science is not just about conducting one experiment and saying it's true, it's about peer review and repeat experimentation. Even that can come to imperfect answers and that's why we challenge and throw out whole fields of science over time and build and build upon our knowledge. Scientists are not a monolithic group of people. We come from all sorts of backgrounds and we definitely do not agree on everything. However we do move with evidence. Unfortunately most of the blogs you listed do not check facts or even bother to present a neutral take on a topic. They have an agenda that while they might wholeheartedly believe it is flawed. They don't update their claims when presented with new evidence... They are still claiming that vaccines cause autism even after several studies have come out in the last couple months have shown no link between the two (in reality it's more likely we got better at detecting autism which actually let to an increase).
Guy: Blogs are about as useful as Wikipedia, actually less useful. I never read them, especially for news and facts, as it seems you do. I only used one because he cited all his research.
I never said anything bad or against science in any way, why do you defend it from nonexistent attacks?? I said the government is using the peoples trust in science ... See Moreto do whatever the fark they want, which is dirty and deceptive. As far as having an agenda, who is calling the kettle black here? Do you honestly believe that just because the "official sources" make it sound nice and pretty, that they don't have some kind of agenda? It's all part of the brainwashing. Put a frog in cold water, raise the temperature slowly, and it will cook itself. I will not let myself be slow boiled by their piece by tiny piece plan for total control. I read your blog, and I could predict every word. I have seen those arguments so absolutely many countless times it makes me sad they can't come up with something new. First, you need an enemy. In this case they picked two individuals. Then you need a catch phrase with a negative connotation. They chose the word "conspirators". When the average person reads the word, they think crazy people in tin foil hats. In fact, all a conspiracy really is is multiple people organizing against another person or group. A conspirator is one who then calls the said organizing group to the light. No tin foil. Then they quote some of the "enemies" catch phrases. "powers that be". The media has trained you to think people who use that phrase don't know what they are talking about. On and on they point the finger for ten whole paragraphs chalk full of fallacies (you did take college English, right? Come on, you can do better) before even pretending to use facts. Then they just associate mercury with a group, stating not a single solitary scientific statement......... and then I stopped. Faux news all the fuck over again. You seriously need to consider the validity of your own sources before you can be able to think about criticizing others.
Me: I'm not really sure which part you are ranting about, I think you are talking about that blog I used to short cut the answer to your question "Why would anti-vaccine people be against vaccines if they are not making a profit" which well it did give a reason.
There is no need for an enemy vaccines have been doing just fine on their own. The problem is as people start not taking vaccines we start losing our "herd immunity" which lets diseases that were nearly eliminated in North America to start creeping in again. Vaccinations are our best defense against disease.
You are falling for the same thing you were just railing against, as soon as they say it's a government coverup you start giving it more cred then it might have as much as I might see the word conspiracy and start to give it less cred. Why don't you look into these facts a bit more then and I'll look into your claims. That's the point of this. Not to name call or ask whether I took college English. (oh and by the way I worked my way up to AP English after struggling because of sight and hearing problems thank you very much).
Your so hell bent to mistrust the government that you can be manipulated by people who have an anti-government agenda, bty, I mistrust the government and anti-government folks.... you should do the same.
Maybe you can convince Guy that all these anti-government groups are actually traps set up by the government to monitor those who would oppose them. It wouldn't cure him, but it could render him safely paralyzed.
Has this guy ever watched CSPAN? Maybe you should introduce him. If he sees firsthand how ham-fistedly moronic and inefficient the US government is, maybe he'll give up. Or perhaps you could take him to a city council meeting sometime and show him what governance really looks like.
Has this guy ever watched CSPAN? Maybe you should introduce him. If he sees firsthand how ham-fistedly moronic and inefficient the US government is, maybe he'll give up. Or perhaps you could take him to a city council meeting sometime and show him what governance really looks like.
he's probably say there is some super efficient shadow government.
he's probably say there is some super efficient shadow government.
If they're that super-efficienct and competent, an average guy of average education like him, or pretty much any other conspiracy theorist would have no hope of uncovering their plots, and therefore, they absolutely cannot be that Super-efficient or competent, because they know about them.
Comments
When SHTF, somehow "i told you so" just won't quite say it.
Me: Friend of guy,, explain how it started to make sense? because your not making sense. My views are mainstream now? I wish it was but I follow a path of reason and logic. (I.E. I'm an Atheist) I don't care what you think really, I do care about guy's opinion and since ... you seem to influence him (or at least have similar opinions) I have to care a bit about your opinion to. (plus I like a good discussion)
but I'm also a curious person, what caused you to become interested after you delved into it? Why are you choosing to believe in something with less evidence then the mainstream religions (and significantly less). The bit of evidence you do have is from a source that there are many others claiming the similar or different things that you don't believe? Why are you dead set on believing this, I see you turn your skepticism on other things but why not this as well?
So when is the SHTF again? So I can be ready for the I told you so?
regardless, I'll continue to debunk claims, it's what I do.
Sir, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship lol.
I didn't come here for an argument. I came here to wake people up. Obviously you have been in a somewhat ... See Moredifferent way. Just ask yourself, what if other guy is right? You will probably just dismiss this, but what if you are the one who doesn't ask enough questions? Arguments about 'logic' seem to float your boat. It doesn't matter what I say, you will always come up with a new attack angle. That's fine, congratulations on being a tactician. But until you recognize the system, until you see the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you, you are still part of the system.
But, because you won't believe a word I say, let's go back to self-reliance. Just stock up on food Scott. That's right, just go out to Sam's club and buy a big bag of rice.
Me: I came here to wake Guy up and in return hopefully get through to you, unfortunately, you would rather spout on about how I wouldn't listen to your proof even if you presented irrefutable proof, while in reality you're having trouble answering even my simplest questions or even backing up your belief in even some half-assed fundie "god did it sort of way". You'll just change the subject and act like I prosecuted you in some way. I came to this discussion to wake people up as well, the internet is full of crazy people spouting crazy things, and it's best that you find ways to determine the crazy from the sane (or at least half sane).
I come to you warning that you are delving into the crazy, take that as it may, I have no problems with crazy beliefs as long as you harm none and keep it to yourself.
However I am genuinely curious about how you arrived at this point. You could answer my above questions instead of dodging.
If you want to stop discussing this topic stop posting. I'm genuinely interested in those questions you haven't answered.
And as for self-reliance, it's good to be as self-reliant as possible, my dad taught me that but we can't all grow our own food because that would be inefficient as well as time consuming, society works as well as it does because we can efficiently make food so that someone else can be the teacher full time or the doctor, if we all took the time to be totally self-sufficient we'd be a lot less effective as a whole. (the industrial revolution destroyed the cottage industries).
We're in the same boat.
As for this guy, he's nuts. There is nothing to talk about any more. Maybe he'll lay off the crazy juice and come back around to sanity, but I wouldn't bet on it myself.
I'm of the opinion that these two are off of the deep-end, but there still may be hope. Do you know either of these two in real life? Maybe you could get "Guy" to sit down with you and talk one on one. In a setting like Facebook, he has a chance to collect his crazy shit and prepare it for you, and as already stated, there's a lot of copy-paste in that shit. I'm convinced that alone in a room with him, he'll give in in under an hour. If this doesn't happen, then try Rym's idea, because otherwise he's a lost cause.
Also, on the note of pot smoking and such, I feel that if this is drug induced, it's more of a LSD three times a week kind of thing. Pot won't do that shit to you, at least to someone who's not already batshit.
I have always felt disgusted towards those people who will only complain about this or that problem, and never make any move to do something about it. I will not be a hypocrite. I will not sit by and watch as people are dying of starvation while we throw out half our McDonald's food letting it waste. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7848886 I will not sit by as people are being shot in wars fought in streets. Or as FEMA camps are being set up all around us across the nation. http://www.campfema.com Or when the government releases plans to kill 90% of the world population LITERALLY IN STONE http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm
and IN MAPS
http://www.google.com/search?aq=1&oq=reserve+and+corridor+system+to+protect&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=simulated+reserve+and+corridor+system+to+protect+biodiversity
all under the guise helping the environment. This is why they want carbon taxes to help fund FEMA, why they want us to believe in global warming, when in fact the entire solar system, every planet, is going through a natural warming cycle, and it is of NO CONSEQUENCE of human doings. (though I am all for alternative energy!) http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-other-planets-solar-system.htm
I post so many links so you don't have to keep asking all the time. Some may be short and of questionably validity, but they all state cold hard infallible facts. Facts which you have still as of yet to even disprove a single one of, even when asked on multiple occasions. Seriously Scott, you can take the blue pill if you want, but I really thought you were smarter than this. Please tell me specifics, not just dancing around pointing fingers and ONLY talking about you, John and I. This is about the facts, not about us. Stay on topic.
I could go on, but for now it's past twelve.
Me: "Some may be short and of questionably validity, but they all state cold hard infallible facts."
How can something be of questionable validity but also be cold hard infallible facts? Validity would be something borne out of fact, if it is questionable that would mean it is not necessarily fact.
Also very strange that we had a swine flu outbreak and we were not rounded up in camps, why is that? if that's what was going to happen? Also maybe you should get some outside people in your group... Your definitely sounding like your suffering from an echo chamber.
Hey I'm not one to complain about things and not do something about it, but ... See Moreyou don't have to believe crazy conspiracies to want to help the world. You have to do it by volunteering and getting out there. I encourage you to go out and help poor people or society in whatever way you can. That's why I am engaged in politics as a hobby.
My final advice is to try my suggestion before (the Medusa strategy). If you do not try it, then I will say that your friend is 100% beyond hope, and should be cut off. If you try it and fail, he should be cut off as well, but at least you tried. Give up on your current tactics: they have no chance of success. And if you cannot succeed, remove him has far from your life as possible: he's a dangerous liability.
Guy:
Me: You do realize that the invention of the Vaccine has saved probably more people in the world and animals then anything short of sterile technique.
Guy: yes, I absolutely do realize that. Penicillium Notatum was an absolutely revolutionary discovery. But when they put more than just vaccines in the vaccine, such as mercury, placenta, animal body parts, MF59, etc.
Side affects of H1N1 vaccine:
http://www.politicolnews.com/topics/side-effects-list-of-swine-flu-vaccine/
Me: you realize that in the case of Mercury it was just trace amount due to Thimersoal which is a preservative in vaccines and in most cases it was removed from vaccines for children under 6. The compound Thimersoal is an organic compound that contains mercury as one of the elements, note that mercury in a compound is different then mercury on it's own... See More...
Placenta??? never heard of that one..... citations please.
Animal body parts, well since vaccines are primarily made in chicken eggs, though as we go on they probably will be made in cell cultures and such. So I can't imagine why they wouldn't be made of animal body parts since they are anti-bodies created in a chicken egg....
MF59? Haven't heard anything bad about that... citation please.
As for the link (i'm at work so i didn't watch the Youtube video) but half of those claims don't even have citations and the referred to articles barely backup the claim or do not point to any larger trend.
Guy: http://www.immunize.org/concerns/vaticandocument.htm
This is one of a few sources for the human tissue. Here it's actually aborted fetus tissue, not placenta. My mistake.
MF59: Here is a guy with a whole bunch of sources listed.
http://web.mac.com/monotreme1/iWeb/Pandemic Influenza Information/Blog/2A16B064-56FC-420B-A530-215948BBF9A3.html
also:... See More
http://www.novaccine.com/vaccine-ingredients/results.asp?sc=235
http://vactruth.com/2009/09/11/ingredients-found-in-spermicides-cleaners-and-cosmetics-along-with-thimerosal-and-squalene-present-in-experimental-h1n1-vaccine/
http://diseases-viruses.suite101.com/article.cfm/swine_flu_vaccine_side_effects
To name a few of my sources
Me: do you have any neutral sources? because things labeled "vactruth" "Novaccine" are not exactly sites that can be trusted to be unbiased. I'll start looking at the sources now but I just wanted to mention that before I continue
Guy: Ok, I will look seriously at any information you would like to share with me. But it makes you wonder, there is no ulterior motive to being against vaccines. They don't make money being against them, they don't get any kind of benefit to themselves at all. So then why are there so many independent organizations against it. The only reason to do something for no service to self would obviously be service to others. What do you think all these peoples motivation is for getting all this information out as best as they can?
Me: Ok, so going up through the links from the bottom, The diseases-viruses.suite101.com from what I got skimming it, it lists the common side effects that all vaccines have.
The next article at vactruth.com is definitely all over the place, it makes way more claims then I feel like fact checking but luckily it summarizes them at the bottom.
1. The vaccine contains squalene (MF59) which has not been tested for causing cancer.... See More
"First and foremost, there is no reason to worry about squalene because it simply is not present in vaccines in the US. According to Patricia El-Hinnawy, a spokesperson for the US Food and Drug Administration: “There is no squalene in any FDA-approved vaccine in the US. There is no squalene in any kind of seasonal flu vaccine or in the H1N1 vaccine.â€
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/squalene-not-to-worry/
2. The vaccine contains thimerosal, a known culprit in causing autism and neurological deficits.
"Thimerosal is a very effective preservative that has been used since the 1930s to prevent contamination in some multi-dose vials of vaccines. There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. The 2009-H1N1 influenza vaccines that FDA has licensed will be manufactured in several formulations, including pre-filled, single-dose syringes and nasal sprayers along with multi-dose vials. Only multi-dose vials of seasonal influenza vaccine will contain thimerosal to prevent potential contamination after the vial is opened. "
Also read a few more studies on whether vaccines cause autism, you'll find there is not a link between the two.
3. The vaccine curiously contains nonoxynol-9 used in spermicides.
I can't find anything that says vaccines actually have this. Even if it did would this matter? I'd have to find that it used.
4. The vaccine will likely cause (and spread) the flu.
No proof of this, some people will have already gotten the flu at the time of the vaccination as well as some others that will get light symptoms of the flu just like the normal flu shot.
5. No neurological testing will be done to ensure the vaccine is safe from harmful neurological side effects.
This is pretty much the same as a normal flu shot..
6. Monitoring for safety will last 13 months, well beyond the flu season.
See above, oh and by the way the H1N1 vaccine was tested at my lab for safety.
The next link doesn't link to a single scientific journal and the claims are similar to those I debunked above. The next link is the same..about the squalene...
finally the one from the Vatican, There are a few cell lines that have been derived from aborted fetuses, they were created before the ban was put into effect, these few lines in the US are vital to our biologic research and honestly the way we make vaccines there should be no trace of the cell line that helped create the vaccine...
Hope that helped. Oh by the way, one of my best friends is a PH.D. candidate working on the bird flu strain, if you want to talk to her about this, I'd be more then happen to send you her E-mail I'm sure she'd love to talk about this.
I'm not saying people are necessarily out there to profit at being anti-vaccine, it's more that they mean well but they do not have the facts straight. http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=308 (a opinion blog I found that talks about this pretty well) Just because you think you are saving the world from some threat doesn't mean the threat is... See More actually there or that you are on the right side. That's why you need to look at more then a few blogs on the internet that spout one sided opinions and look for neutral empirical sources of research, and read and understand the methodology. Science is not just about conducting one experiment and saying it's true, it's about peer review and repeat experimentation. Even that can come to imperfect answers and that's why we challenge and throw out whole fields of science over time and build and build upon our knowledge. Scientists are not a monolithic group of people. We come from all sorts of backgrounds and we definitely do not agree on everything. However we do move with evidence. Unfortunately most of the blogs you listed do not check facts or even bother to present a neutral take on a topic. They have an agenda that while they might wholeheartedly believe it is flawed. They don't update their claims when presented with new evidence... They are still claiming that vaccines cause autism even after several studies have come out in the last couple months have shown no link between the two (in reality it's more likely we got better at detecting autism which actually let to an increase).
I never said anything bad or against science in any way, why do you defend it from nonexistent attacks?? I said the government is using the peoples trust in science ... See Moreto do whatever the fark they want, which is dirty and deceptive. As far as having an agenda, who is calling the kettle black here? Do you honestly believe that just because the "official sources" make it sound nice and pretty, that they don't have some kind of agenda? It's all part of the brainwashing. Put a frog in cold water, raise the temperature slowly, and it will cook itself. I will not let myself be slow boiled by their piece by tiny piece plan for total control. I read your blog, and I could predict every word. I have seen those arguments so absolutely many countless times it makes me sad they can't come up with something new. First, you need an enemy. In this case they picked two individuals. Then you need a catch phrase with a negative connotation. They chose the word "conspirators". When the average person reads the word, they think crazy people in tin foil hats. In fact, all a conspiracy really is is multiple people organizing against another person or group. A conspirator is one who then calls the said organizing group to the light. No tin foil. Then they quote some of the "enemies" catch phrases. "powers that be". The media has trained you to think people who use that phrase don't know what they are talking about. On and on they point the finger for ten whole paragraphs chalk full of fallacies (you did take college English, right? Come on, you can do better) before even pretending to use facts. Then they just associate mercury with a group, stating not a single solitary scientific statement......... and then I stopped. Faux news all the fuck over again. You seriously need to consider the validity of your own sources before you can be able to think about criticizing others.
Me: I'm not really sure which part you are ranting about, I think you are talking about that blog I used to short cut the answer to your question "Why would anti-vaccine people be against vaccines if they are not making a profit" which well it did give a reason.
There is no need for an enemy vaccines have been doing just fine on their own. The problem is as people start not taking vaccines we start losing our "herd immunity" which lets diseases that were nearly eliminated in North America to start creeping in again. Vaccinations are our best defense against disease.
You are falling for the same thing you were just railing against, as soon as they say it's a government coverup you start giving it more cred then it might have as much as I might see the word conspiracy and start to give it less cred. Why don't you look into these facts a bit more then and I'll look into your claims. That's the point of this. Not to name call or ask whether I took college English. (oh and by the way I worked my way up to AP English after struggling because of sight and hearing problems thank you very much).
Your so hell bent to mistrust the government that you can be manipulated by people who have an anti-government agenda, bty, I mistrust the government and anti-government folks.... you should do the same.