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PC vs Console FPS Controls: Nails in the Coffin

AprecheApreche
edited July 2010 in Video Games
We've had a lot of discussions about keyboard and mouse vs. gamepad, but those discussions were all tangents in other threads. Since it seems we have some new evidence, let's make this the definitive thread.

Anyway, Rahul Sood is the founder of Voodoo PC, which got bought by HP. In a recent blog post he discusses the Shadowrun game for XBox 360 that allowed PC gamers and XBox gamers to compete with each other.

http://www.rahulsood.com/2010/07/console-gamers-get-killed-against-pc.html
There was a project that got killed at Microsoft. This project was designed to allow console gamers and PC gamers to interact and battle over a connected environment. Personally I wish it would have stayed the course. I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened? They pitted console gamers with their "console" controller, against PC gamers with their keyboard and mouse.

The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the XBOX team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative. Is this why the project was killed Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved --- what happened?
Apparently the professional level XBox players didn't just lose to the PC gamers. They got completely smoked by mediocre, non-professional, PC gamers. Ouch! To avoid embarrassment, they canned the project.

He brings up a good point that if Microsoft had kept the project going, it probably would have helped PC gaming a great deal. If there were many games out there where PC gamers could directly compete with console gamers, and the PC gamers were always dominating, people who cared about gaming would start to realize they should play on a PC, and it would become a preferred platform of serious competition. Because they did not continue this project, we are having people actually make the insane argument that the console is just as good, simply because Microsoft swept the evidence under the rug.
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Comments

  • Li_AkahiLi_Akahi
    If Microsoft would just let XBox users use a keyboard and a mouse, life would be so much easier.
  • GreatTeacherMacRossGreatTeacherMacRoss
    If Microsoft would just let XBox users use a keyboard and a mouse, life would be so much easier.
    I can think of no better thing to do than this. There's no excuse why they couldn't have a mouse/keyboard on what is essentially a computer. Hell, even Mario Paint had a mouse.
  • AprecheApreche
    edited July 2010
    If Microsoft would just let XBox users use a keyboard and a mouse, life would be so much easier.
    What's the point? It's incredibly uncomfortable to sit at a TV with keyboard and mouse. Just go sit at your computer. I'm sure somebody out there can get used to using mouse and keyboard from a couch, but I doubt it will be good. There's an ergonomic advantage to watch out for here.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • GreatTeacherMacRossGreatTeacherMacRoss
    edited July 2010
    If Microsoft would just let XBox users use a keyboard and a mouse, life would be so much easier.
    What's the point? It's incredibly uncomfortable to sit at a TV with keyboard and mouse. Just go sit at your computer. I'm sure somebody out there can get used to using mouse and keyboard from a couch, but I doubt it will be good. There's an ergonomic advantage to watch out for here.
    It would have to be a not-normal keyboard mouse. Perhaps a kind of lap-board. hell, if it's for hardcore console gamers who want the mouse advantage, you could come up with an entire gamer chair for that sort of thing.
    Not sayin' I'd buy it, just sayin'.
    Post edited by GreatTeacherMacRoss on
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    What's the point?
    The HUUUUUUUGE price difference.
  • AprecheApreche
    The HUUUUUUUGE price difference.
    Between what? A computer and an XBox?

    If you're any kind of person, you're going to have a computer anyway. If you're going to have a computer anyway, the only price difference you can take into account is the price difference between a non-gaming computer and a gaming computer. An uber gaming computer can be very expensive, over $1000. Even so, for $800 you can get a badass computer. For $600 you can probably still play every game on the Source engine, and many others, just fine. The new XBox 360 runs about $300. So the price of a netbook, which is the minimum computer you would need to just do modern computing, plus the price of an XBox, is the price of a gaming PC.

    PC games and XBox games also follow the same basic pricing model. They start out $50-$60. They price then drops rapidly as time passes, unless it's Nintendo.

    In fact, there is only one price difference, and that is the accessories. The XBox will require you to buy controllers, batteries, Kinect anyone? You'll already have a mouse and keyboard for your PC.

    The PC is cheaper.
  • RymRym
    The PC is cheaper.
    Unless you want to play a new game, and require a proper gaming PC.
  • sucrilhossucrilhos
    edited July 2010
    In my opinion there should be a market for both. People that want to game on the computer, fine, and people that want to use their consoles should be fine too. Maybe there should be a mouse & keyboard server for every console game, and whoever wanted could use that solution and those servers could be cross platform for PC users also. Console makers can even make money on that selling mice and keyboard with a token to allow you to play on the mouse & keyboard cross platform server.

    I agree with Scott's point of view in building a PC, you can get by with a 600 dollars PC (with a pirated copy of your favorite OS), but you'll only be able to play games at a mediocre display quality setting, which is just fine compared to console display quality.
    Post edited by sucrilhos on
  • AprecheApreche
    edited July 2010
    Unless you want to play a new game, and require a proper gaming PC.
    Don't play those crazy games. They aren't even that good. I think the game that really requires a crazy computer right now is Metro 2033, and I heard it's not very good. It's out for 360, but would you even play it there? Also, if you turn the settings way down, you CAN play it on a lower powered, inexpensive, PC just fine. Also, the 360 definitely has the settings turned down. There's no way the console version is equivalent to the PC with settings all the way up. Most of the games people are playing on consoles can work on a cheap computer.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    There is something to be said for the console gaming experience where you just pop in a game and start to play right away.
  • AprecheApreche
    There is something to be said for the console gaming experience where you just pop in a game and start to play right away.
    So waiting for a game to download on Steam takes more time and effort that physically obtaining a disc? Give me a break. Also, I only own a single disc-based game for the 360, the rest are all XBLA games, no different than Steam.
  • sucrilhossucrilhos
    There is something to be said for the console gaming experience where you just pop in a game and start to play right away.
    That no longer happens on the PS3. In most titles you have to wait for the "installing" business just the same. The hard disk eventually gets filled up just the same and you have to get rid of games installed.
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    That no longer happens on the PS3. In most titles you have to wait for the "installing" business just the same. The hard disk eventually gets filled up just the same and you have to get rid of games installed.
    weak.
  • GreatTeacherMacRossGreatTeacherMacRoss
    edited July 2010
    I agree with the demographic difference and each system of gaming having it's place. The hardest of hardcore gamers will always go for a PC. Typically, younger demographics, like little kids are going to go for the consoles because they love characters like Mario and Sonic. I know you're going to say they can just get an emulator, or if their parents are smart they could just get an emulator, but some kids will simply want to use the console-specific controllers or devices.
    Also, while graphics matter a bit, I think we can all agree that we'd take a game with marginal graphics but is amazing otherwise as opposed to a game that is just eye-candy. I'm sure Dragon Age looks better on a high-end PC, but why would I spend $60- $1000 for a new system that I can crank up the graphics on, and have to buy the game, when i have a console that does just fine and I only need to spend $40 on a game?
    PC gaming for FPS's is faster, more challenging, and has better controls for certain, but for people who are also not hardcore gamers, simpler is better. I don't think Kate would have gotten nearly as into Dragon age as she has if she was having to use the keyboard and mouse or had to deal with lots of key bindings. True, you can hook up an XBOX controller to a PC (I have yet to get it to recognize the wireless signal from either of my controllers), but it's also way more comfortable to be in the living room where we can both be at the same time even if one of us is not playing than in my study.
    I think the market for both is always going to be there, and which is 'better' depends on what kind of gamer you are and what you are looking for in your games.
    Post edited by GreatTeacherMacRoss on
  • sucrilhossucrilhos
    to be in the living room where we can both be at the same time
    I think this is a huge point for console gaming. It's a hell of a lot better for get togethers.
  • AndrewAndrew
    edited July 2010
    Dragon Age is possibly the worst game to use as an argument for consoles over PC. The game is fundamentally different between the systems and near objectively better on the PC.
    Post edited by Andrew on
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    Dragon Age is possibly the worst game to use as an argument for consoles over PC. The game is fundamentally different between the consoles and near objectively better on the PC.
    I think that's part of Adam's point. The people playing consoles don't need the bestest gaming experience evar! They just want to play some games.
  • AprecheApreche
    I think that's part of Adam's point. The people playing consoles don't need the bestest gaming experience evar! They just want to play some games.
    Then you're just someone who plays games, not a gamer. Game playing doesn't define you in any way. Everyone watches movies, but you're only a film buff if film defines you in some way. And if you don't care about games that much, who cares if you use a gamepad and suck? Nobody.

    The point is that there are people who do care, who do define themselves as gamers. They are professional Halo players or whatever. They believe, and spread, a lie that mouse and keyboard are not superior. They need to learn the truth.
  • AxelAxel
    Scott's argument that the new games that require a crazy PC are better is also crap. Let's talk about Mass Effect. I tried playing it on my brother's laptop, and it didn't run very well, so I couldn't get all that far into it. At this point, it would cost more to upgrade to an awesome PC than it would to buy an Xbox 360 and all the accessories needed with it. Granted, Mass Effect controls better with the mouse, but it's not multiplayer, so perfect aim doesn't really matter a ton.
    And everything that Adam said is also true. Game's might be inferior on consoles, but the console has innumerable benefits that a PC doesn't. Playing iconic games that, while they apparently don't appeal to Scott, definitely appeal to a lot of other people on this forum is only possible with a console. I want to keep playing the new Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong, and Kirby games because they're appealing to me. Other games for the PS3 and 360 appeal to me to, things like inFamous or Prototype that aren't fully possible on the PC and control much better with a controller. I think we definitely should get a mouse and keyboard attachments for modern consoles, and I don't think it's all that uncomfortable with a T.V., just set a coffee table down in front of you and use that to put the mouse and keyboard on.
  • sucrilhossucrilhos
    The point is that there are people who do care, who do define themselves as gamers. They are professional Halo players or whatever. They believe, and spread, a lie that mouse and keyboard are not superior. They need to learn the truth.
    Now I see the point of the thread. It amazes me how that could not be obvious to someone.
  • AprecheApreche
    Scott's argument that the new games that require a crazy PC are better is also crap. Let's talk about Mass Effect. I tried playing it on my brother's laptop, and it didn't run very well, so I couldn't get all that far into it. At this point, it would cost more to upgrade to an awesome PC than it would to buy an Xbox 360 and all the accessories needed with it. Granted, Mass Effect controls better with the mouse, but it's not multiplayer, so perfect aim doesn't really matter a ton.
    Mistake number one, laptop. Game on a desktop, which is upgradeable. Also, did you turn the settings all the way down on the game? Was your brother's laptop infested with performance-eating viruses and spyware? Did the laptop meet or exceed the advertised minimum system requirements? I'm willing to bet that for at least one of these, you will have the wrong answer.

    Also, who the hell has turned this argument into PC vs. Console in general? I own and use three consoles! The argument is only about the superiority of mouse and keyboard to gamepad in terms of FPS control. It seems like nobody is disagreeing anymore.
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    Then you're just someone who plays games, not a gamer. Game playing doesn't define you in any way. Everyone watches movies, but you're only a film buff if film defines you in some way. And if you don't care about games that much, who cares if you use a gamepad and suck? Nobody.
    So you can't be a console gamer? You can't simply prefer a gamepad despite it's inferiority?
  • AprecheApreche
    So you can't be a console gamer? You can't simply prefer a gamepad despite it's inferiority?
    You can prefer it, if you want, just like someone can prefer the smell of poop to the smell of roses. You just can't argue there's no difference when it comes to FPSing and such. The keyboard and mouse is objectively superior.
  • Li_AkahiLi_Akahi
    You just can't argue there's no difference when it comes to FPSing and such. The keyboard and mouse is objectively superior.
    Yes, but FPS-es are only one genre of games. Platforming is do-able on keyboard and mouse, but is much better on consoles with a controller and while you can buy a 360 controller for the PC, you still have to buy a controller. I'm pretty am with playing most of my games on my consoles on the 50-ish inch TV in my basement and holding off on playing FPS's until I can acutally get a computer that can competently play PC games.
  • AprecheApreche
    Yes, but FPS-es are only one genre of games. Platforming is do-able on keyboard and mouse, but is much better on consoles with a controller and while you can buy a 360 controller for the PC, you still have to buy a controller. I'm pretty am with playing most of my games on my consoles on the 50-ish inch TV in my basement and holding off on playing FPS's until I can acutally get a computer that can competently play PC games.
    That's some nice straw men you've got there.
  • JasonJason
    There is something to be said for the console gaming experience where you just pop in a game and start to play right away.
    Console games tend to be laden with unskippable splash screens for 10 different production companies and copyright holders before you can play. While not exclusive to consoles, they tend to be bigger offenders.
  • AprecheApreche
    Console games tend to be laden with unskippable splash screens for 10 different production companies and copyright holders before you can play. While not exclusive to consoles, they tend to be bigger offenders.
    Borderlands on PC has this same bullshit. Most other PC game let me skip.
  • AxelAxel
    @Scott
    Gaming desktops are super expensive, further proving my point.

    Yes, I turned the settings on the game all the way down. My brother's laptop does not have spyware. It at least met, probably exceeded the game's requirements. It had a good graphics card, tons of RAM, and was fairly clean. According to my brother, it ran Portal just fine, but Mass Effect was laggy and unbearable.

    Also, sorry for misinterpreting your argument. However, what Li says is right, the mouse and keyboard setup is only superior for a single genre. If that's your argument, wonderful. But I don't think that there are actually that many people arguing that.

    And enjoying the gamepad over a mouse and keyboard is not just stupid, like enjoying the smell of poop. It could be inferior for FPS', yes, but...Analog sticks are nice, and the styles of playing are completely different. Pro's wouldn't care if playing PC FPS' would make them even better pros, they like the gamepad setup. They have mastered that. Using a mouse and keyboard is an entirely different skillset, and those aren't the skills they want.
  • JasonJason
    Console games tend to be laden with unskippable splash screens for 10 different production companies and copyright holders before you can play. While not exclusive to consoles, they tend to be bigger offenders.
    Borderlands on PC has this same bullshit. Most other PC game let me skip.
    That's the one I was thinking of, as well as certain EA titles.
  • SovaSova
    edited July 2010
    I'll hand it to you that FPS games are much better on a computer, however there are many types of games that suck horribly when played with a mouse and keyboard. Imagine for instance trying to play ninja gaiden with a mouse and keyboard. That thought is horrifying to me. Granted I just bought a xbox controller, but playing emulated games like contra, zelda etc with a keyboard is a cramp inducing nightmare.

    So I'm not totally sure if this is a 'console vs pc' or 'keyboard and mouse vs controller' argument. Owning an Xbox is nice imo because anyone who has an Xbox out there and the same game can play with you, and you'll have nearly the same experience. It brings about a uniformity to gaming which is nice IN SOME SETTINGS. Also all games are developed specifically for that platform and tweaked to work, so at least you know you'll be able to play the things you buy. A PC on the other hand allows you to maximize performance, yet if you don't have spare money to optimize for gaming it can make your game unplayable.

    Something else I find interesting is that a mouse and keyboard were developed for typing and pointing, whereas a controller was made specifically to play games. I'm kind of curious to see what something optimized specifically FPS gaming would produce, and I don't mean those 'gaming keyboards'. I'm talking about something that was designed to be ergonomically perfect and potentially provide as much of an advantage over a keyboard as a keyboard does over a controller. The mouse works just fine for the most part, but I'v never really like the keyboard that much. Possibly eye tracking or something, I'm not talking about sportsmanship here, I'm just talking about a human user input that would provide an insane advantage (so aimbots don't qualify).
    Post edited by Sova on
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