I don't know at what point this turned into console vs. PC in general. Duh, different games are better with different controllers on different platforms. Some people like different genres of game more than others. Common sense people.
This is about mouse and keyboard vs. gamepad for FPS games.
What is there to discuss if that's the maximum scope of the argument you want to have?
There have been multiple threads on this forum and others where people have disagreed with this. I simply made this thread to present the new, and damning, evidence I had discovered.
What is there to discuss if that's the maximum scope of the argument you want to have?
The broader argument is too multifaceted to come down to a simple answer. Is DDR better with a game pad or a dance mat? How about an arcade platform?
The interesting argument, to us, is the strange position many console gamers playing their FPSs hold,that the gamepad itself is somehow equal in terms of the level of control it provides in contemporary games to a mouse for purposes of aiming. The closest thing to an argument they could make would be that some games can gimp the maximum precision of aiming or otherwise compensate with auto-aim to make up for the severe deficiencies of a gamepad, or else that games can obviate the need for precision and push the test of skill to other arenas.
But they never make that argument. Instead, they claim that they can do just as well across the board with their gamepads. We now have at least one solid piece of evidence that this is patently untrue.
I simply made this thread to present the new, and damning, evidence I had discovered.
We now have at least one solid piece of evidence that this is patently untrue.
The word of a dude about a supposed project is hardly evidence that proves your point. It's hearsay, there is no data at all. What's qualifies as a hardcore console FPSer? What qualifies as a mediocre PC FPSer? What sort of levels were they playing on? What were the specs of the computers? What TVs did the console gamers use? How close were they?
What's qualifies as a hardcore console FPSer? What qualifies as a mediocre PC FPSer? What sort of levels were they playing on? What were the specs of the computers? What TVs did the console gamers use? How close were they?
I am personally confident that most possible combinations will result in utter domination of the non-mouse players.
I am personally confident that most possible combinations will result in utter domination of the non-mouse players.
If I knew my opponents all had gamepads, I would always attack from 7:30 or 4:30. By the time they are able to aim at me in that position, omae wa mo shindeiru.
Maybe we could make an EXTRA point about what is the most suitable form of controller for everything. For instance, the k&m are better for RTSs and FPSs, game pads are better for platform, side scrolling(includes fighting) and driving. Flying simulators vary depending if it's spaceships or airplanes you're controlling. Although pretty much each game could use a specific sort of controller, casual gamers or punk kids with no money will always go for the best all around type of controller instead of having one of each. Between does two I would probably choose the game pad as a best overall gaming controller. As for preferring console gaming to pc it just makes no since, consoles now-a-days are basically just HTPC's with limited functionality. It boils down to what franchises you support the most.
This thread was falsely advertised, and pretty much baiting from what I can tell. Title leads people to believe this is a broad topic, OP changes it to being about a specific facet of FPS games on multiple platforms. Why then were games like dragonage even brought up here? I accept my bias as a console gamer, but your entire argument is coming across as short-sighted and childish. Kind of a 'we are better than you, who cares if you are more popular' kind of deal. And that's cool, so long as that's what you're trying to do and admit it. If anything, this thread shows to highlight microsoft's and possibly sony's lack of concern for the level of competition on consoles. Take pride in being the better side. I guess.
This thread was falsely advertised, and pretty much baiting from what I can tell. Title leads people to believe this is a broad topic, OP changes it to being about a specific facet of FPS games on multiple platforms. Why then were games like dragonage even brought up here? I accept my bias as a console gamer, but your entire argument is coming across as short-sighted and childish. Kind of a 'we are better than you, who cares if you are more popular' kind of deal. And that's cool, so long as that's what you're trying to do and admit it. If anything, this thread shows to highlight microsoft's and possibly sony's lack of concern for the level of competition on consoles. Take pride in being the better side. I guess.
Sounds to me like you guys just fail for reading the topic and again not actually reading the first post. I'll update the topic though.
Also, for anyone who thinks we are PC fanboys or anything, go listen to early GeekNights "PC gaming is dead" and such were heard quite often.
There is absolutely no argument about FPS's on consoles VS ones on PC's. PC's will always win. Even with devices like the Wii Remote and the PlayStation Wii Remote in or coming to the market (essentially enabling a mouse-like controller). Console FPS's still don't have access to a keyboard. The only reason I was arguing about other genres of gaming and how a controller is superior for those was because of the title of the thread. The fact that it has been changed can now focus us to the topic that we all already agree on.
So you admit to reading the title of a thread, and then replying without reading the posts, not even the first one?
No, I read the first post, but no where in said post is "FPS" said. I didn't know what kind of game Shadowrun is (mostly because I don't give a flying fuck). I did assume that it was going to be about FPS's, though. The topic did open up a lot as comments were added, so the focusing of the title made the actual intent of the thread completely clear.
Personally I'm still amused by the fact that you take this guy's word as evidence to your cause. Confirmation bias is so silly.
Ok, how about we do a test ourselves. XBox 360 controllers work on the PC. Why don't you plug one in and we'll play some Quake Live. Just bind all the movements to the left stick and aiming to the right stick. Then bind the buttons however you want on the game pad. I'll use mouse and keyboard, and we'll do a simple death match. Do you think even a professional console FPS player will stand a chance?
Ok, how about we do a test ourselves. XBox 360 controllers work on the PC. Why don't you plug one in and we'll play some Quake Live. Just bind all the movements to the left stick and aiming to the right stick. Then bind the buttons however you want on the game pad. I'll use mouse and keyboard, and we'll do a simple death match. Do you think even a professional console FPS player will stand a chance?
What I think is irrelevant in the matter. Also if we actually want to recreate this test, we need some one good at console shooters. I am not, nor are you I believe (though maybe you are). I'm a mediocre FPSer at best on whatever platform I play.
This is silly. If we are restricting the argument to games that require a large range of motion to be covered quickly, the mouse is inherently superior, and this statement can be measured empirically.
Joysticks and game pads have set CPI and no variable acceleration, which mice do.
In other words, software settings and preferences can be used to change how many counts per inch (CPI) a mouse covers. Also, I can move my hand (holding the mouse) over a cubic foot surface in less than a second, but a console controller can only move a fraction of an inch before software determines how quickly a reticule will travel in game space. In addition, mouse acceleration -- especially in high-end mice with specialized drivers -- allow pointing to change at a different rate when the mouse is moving slowly than it would when the mouse is moving quickly, which means I can own you when sniping and still whirl around in a heartbeat to hit someone on my tail.
Confirmation bias requires evidence that is contrary to one's conclusion. Do you have any?
Confirmation bias is simply selecting information that supports your opinion, regardless of whether or not it's true. In this case, the project that Microsoft cancelled may never have existed in the first place. Objectively this information has no merit what so ever.
Oh, wait, Didn't I make multiple posts 24 to 48 hours ago that you're making a big deal out of what doesn't even amount to believable Anecdotal evidence, and noted that Scott would most likely play this up into a big thing? This Guy isn't a reliable resource on any scale, let alone that even he admits that it's just something he heard about. He didn't see it. He didn't speak to anyone involved in it. To quote directly from him -
Rumor has it that there was a project many many months ago at Microsoft that was under wraps.
But then suddenly, Despite that he's already said that "Rumour has it" He has a reliable source from inside the project which two paragraphs ago, was a rumor.
I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened?
And wow - Isn't it a strange coincidence that Microsoft killed a project just like that.....Oh wait, no they didn't. Games for Windows live brings PC and console gamers onto the one service, Sharing messaging, Achievements, DLC, and multiplayer gaming, and You can play various titles multiplayer cross platform. And despite your predictions, The console players and PC players are surprisingly equal.
And furthermore, He's probably not a dumb guy - He's the founder of Voodoo PC, and now the CTO of HP's Gaming business. Why would he possibly just spout off some rumor as fact, and make some shit up.
Wait, wait hold on a second.
He's the founder of Voodoo PC, and is not the CTO of HP's PC focused gaming division. He knows that, since he's a high-up industry professional, people will trust his opinion, and funnily enough, The area he does business in - PC gaming - is shrinking every year, thanks to the accessibility of console gaming, and it's de-stigmatisation among the mainstream as just being a hobby for geeks.
WOW I WONDER HOW HE MIGHT POSSIBLY HAVE A SLIGHT BIAS, OR A REASON FOR REPORTING RUMOR AS FACT, OR MAKING SHIT UP.
Seriously, Scott, Seriously? I prefer not to be unkind when I critique you, but did you fall off your bike on the way home from work, suffering a shattering blow to the head that has caused catastrophic brain damage, or to put it in the short, common vernacular, ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?
Nails in the coffin - This isn't even a thumbtack holding up a poster that says "PC GAMERS ARE SUPERIOR LOLOLOLOLOL" under a big, high-res photo of a trollface.
You'd have to be a fucking gullible moron to believe this shit, even before you did any basic research. Basic research indicates that there is no possible way what he's saying is true, but since this seems to confirm what you're saying, you didn't bother to think to do that, did you? No, of course not, the Rubin cannon be wrong. Yes, to avoid embarrassment they canned the project which is now a major component of their PC gaming business, as well as including their massive, multi-million dollar revenue-spinner X-box live, you fucking idiot.
Here it is, about PC Vs Console - When Challenged, you make a lot of noise that amounts to "Shut up, I'm right" and a bunch of pseudo-scientific, theoretical arguments that ignore reality. You will take anything anyone says in support of your position, and play it up as a massive thing(For example, some guy with an obvious bias disproved by any basic research into what he says - OMG ANOTHER NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF CONSOLE GAMING), even if that means incorrectly interpreting the content of an article, or posting some ludicrous, obviously bullshit or at the least useless commentary by an unreliable source. You will call all of this factual evidence, despite that you never have anything more than anecdotal evidence and pseudo-scientific theories. You ignore the obvious Biases and conflicts of interest in anyone who supports or appears to support your side of the argument, and treat what they say as fact even when it's obviously made up or wrong.
Now, to illustrate my point, please everybody following along, Replace "PC VS Console" with the words "Homeopathy" or "Chiropractic", or "Ear Candling" or whatever woo-woo you fancy to substitute.
Thus, this is all that can be said - Scott Rubin, You're a Randi-bullshit artist, and your Randi-bullshit is "PC Vs console", and furthermore, I think that with the fervour of your randi-bullshit, the only cure would be a Buzz Aldrin-ing, metaphorical or otherwise, nothing less.
The likely "BABY GAMES HURR DURR" response you will come back with to this is as meaningless as the usage of "Energy", "Quantum" and "Nano" by the Alt-med community, and your Attempt at any factual response will inevitably be nothing but your pet pseudo-scientific BS that you've spouted off before. Don't bother.
Jesus Churba you go against Scott on an fps using a game pad. I bet 100 dollar's on Scott with K&M. I play FPS's on my PC (last one was battlefield 2142) and on the ps3 (bad company 2 right now), I assure you on the PC I got killed a helluv a lot faster. lol I can't say I was any better because I suck at both.
Jesus Churba you go against Scott on an fps using a game pad. I bet 100 dollar's on Scott with K&M.; I play FPS's on my PC (last one was battlefield 2142) and on the ps3 (bad company 2 right now), I assure you on the PC I got killed a helluv a lot faster. lol I can't say I was any better because I suck at both.
You use-a the mouse-a!? I PLAY WITH-A THE-A GAMEPAD!!
This is probably a good thread for me to go on a complete tangent on, so I shall: To be honest, I have never really seen the attraction of a game that tests just your auto-motor skills. If all I did was click on someone else before they clicked on me, I don't really feel I've gotten the better of someone. Things like TF2, Tribes 2 and NS1 made me feel engaged because I had to think about things using my left brain which eventually lead me to the realisation that, the thing I look for in games is a test of my problem solving skills, be it Zelda, Abe's Oddesy, TF2 (I play a lot as the engineer.), etc.. a game has to have some other really strong draw if it lacks this. For games where I just want to zone out, I find racing games to be much better suited to that kind of thing as you can completely trance out; Though, I play them very rarely.
If someone were to make a game where it's just people constructing puzzles for others to solve, I would be all over that shit like Churba on Russian strippers.
Jesus Churba you go against Scott on an fps using a game pad. I bet 100 dollar's on Scott with K&M.; I play FPS's on my PC (last one was battlefield 2142) and on the ps3 (bad company 2 right now), I assure you on the PC I got killed a helluv a lot faster. lol I can't say I was any better because I suck at both.
No, I go up against his bullshit arguments about it. I don't give a fuck - I'll play on any platform, regardless. For PC credentials I was for years a regular at my local Games Cafe, to the point where I was essentially working there, and just being paid in hours on my account - Literally, if the guy who owned the joint wanted to go to the shops, or take a nap, it'd be "Yo, Scott, take over the desk for a bit, I'm gonna take a nap" or whatever - and they are all PC. On top of that, I've been playing FPS for pretty much as long as Scott has.
Like I said, it's the bullshit arguments I can't stand - This is a good example. If this was to do with ANYTHING else, then Scott would jump on whoever used this bullshit in an argument, because it's barely worth calling anecdotal evidence, if you're not going to call it outright bullshit. But because it supports his cherished position, He's up it like a rat up a rafter.
This was posted on Kotaku. While the create of this video was assisted by various technologies, the speed is what to pay attention to. This is what real PC fpses are actually like. This is why we say that games like TF2 are slow, weak sauce, and have a low skill cap.
Play multiplayer Quake with us old schoolers. The game will be that fast. Quake 3/Quake Live is significantly slower. And good luck playing that kind of game with a gamepad. I dare you.
Comments
This is about mouse and keyboard vs. gamepad for FPS games.
The interesting argument, to us, is the strange position many console gamers playing their FPSs hold,that the gamepad itself is somehow equal in terms of the level of control it provides in contemporary games to a mouse for purposes of aiming. The closest thing to an argument they could make would be that some games can gimp the maximum precision of aiming or otherwise compensate with auto-aim to make up for the severe deficiencies of a gamepad, or else that games can obviate the need for precision and push the test of skill to other arenas.
But they never make that argument. Instead, they claim that they can do just as well across the board with their gamepads. We now have at least one solid piece of evidence that this is patently untrue.
Between does two I would probably choose the game pad as a best overall gaming controller.
As for preferring console gaming to pc it just makes no since, consoles now-a-days are basically just HTPC's with limited functionality. It boils down to what franchises you support the most.
Also, for anyone who thinks we are PC fanboys or anything, go listen to early GeekNights "PC gaming is dead" and such were heard quite often.
Awesome.
Personally I'm still amused by the fact that you take this guy's word as evidence to your cause. Confirmation bias is so silly.
Joysticks and game pads have set CPI and no variable acceleration, which mice do.
In other words, software settings and preferences can be used to change how many counts per inch (CPI) a mouse covers. Also, I can move my hand (holding the mouse) over a cubic foot surface in less than a second, but a console controller can only move a fraction of an inch before software determines how quickly a reticule will travel in game space. In addition, mouse acceleration -- especially in high-end mice with specialized drivers -- allow pointing to change at a different rate when the mouse is moving slowly than it would when the mouse is moving quickly, which means I can own you when sniping and still whirl around in a heartbeat to hit someone on my tail.
Also, yet again, damn you Phantom.
And furthermore, He's probably not a dumb guy - He's the founder of Voodoo PC, and now the CTO of HP's Gaming business. Why would he possibly just spout off some rumor as fact, and make some shit up.
Wait, wait hold on a second.
He's the founder of Voodoo PC, and is not the CTO of HP's PC focused gaming division. He knows that, since he's a high-up industry professional, people will trust his opinion, and funnily enough, The area he does business in - PC gaming - is shrinking every year, thanks to the accessibility of console gaming, and it's de-stigmatisation among the mainstream as just being a hobby for geeks.
WOW I WONDER HOW HE MIGHT POSSIBLY HAVE A SLIGHT BIAS, OR A REASON FOR REPORTING RUMOR AS FACT, OR MAKING SHIT UP.
Seriously, Scott, Seriously? I prefer not to be unkind when I critique you, but did you fall off your bike on the way home from work, suffering a shattering blow to the head that has caused catastrophic brain damage, or to put it in the short, common vernacular, ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?
Nails in the coffin - This isn't even a thumbtack holding up a poster that says "PC GAMERS ARE SUPERIOR LOLOLOLOLOL" under a big, high-res photo of a trollface.
You'd have to be a fucking gullible moron to believe this shit, even before you did any basic research. Basic research indicates that there is no possible way what he's saying is true, but since this seems to confirm what you're saying, you didn't bother to think to do that, did you? No, of course not, the Rubin cannon be wrong.
Yes, to avoid embarrassment they canned the project which is now a major component of their PC gaming business, as well as including their massive, multi-million dollar revenue-spinner X-box live, you fucking idiot.
Here it is, about PC Vs Console - When Challenged, you make a lot of noise that amounts to "Shut up, I'm right" and a bunch of pseudo-scientific, theoretical arguments that ignore reality. You will take anything anyone says in support of your position, and play it up as a massive thing(For example, some guy with an obvious bias disproved by any basic research into what he says - OMG ANOTHER NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF CONSOLE GAMING), even if that means incorrectly interpreting the content of an article, or posting some ludicrous, obviously bullshit or at the least useless commentary by an unreliable source. You will call all of this factual evidence, despite that you never have anything more than anecdotal evidence and pseudo-scientific theories. You ignore the obvious Biases and conflicts of interest in anyone who supports or appears to support your side of the argument, and treat what they say as fact even when it's obviously made up or wrong.
Now, to illustrate my point, please everybody following along, Replace "PC VS Console" with the words "Homeopathy" or "Chiropractic", or "Ear Candling" or whatever woo-woo you fancy to substitute.
Thus, this is all that can be said - Scott Rubin, You're a Randi-bullshit artist, and your Randi-bullshit is "PC Vs console", and furthermore, I think that with the fervour of your randi-bullshit, the only cure would be a Buzz Aldrin-ing, metaphorical or otherwise, nothing less.
The likely "BABY GAMES HURR DURR" response you will come back with to this is as meaningless as the usage of "Energy", "Quantum" and "Nano" by the Alt-med community, and your Attempt at any factual response will inevitably be nothing but your pet pseudo-scientific BS that you've spouted off before. Don't bother.
To be honest, I have never really seen the attraction of a game that tests just your auto-motor skills. If all I did was click on someone else before they clicked on me, I don't really feel I've gotten the better of someone. Things like TF2, Tribes 2 and NS1 made me feel engaged because I had to think about things using my left brain which eventually lead me to the realisation that, the thing I look for in games is a test of my problem solving skills, be it Zelda, Abe's Oddesy, TF2 (I play a lot as the engineer.), etc.. a game has to have some other really strong draw if it lacks this. For games where I just want to zone out, I find racing games to be much better suited to that kind of thing as you can completely trance out; Though, I play them very rarely.
If someone were to make a game where it's just people constructing puzzles for others to solve, I would be all over that shit like Churba on Russian strippers.
The creation of a mad genius.
Like I said, it's the bullshit arguments I can't stand - This is a good example. If this was to do with ANYTHING else, then Scott would jump on whoever used this bullshit in an argument, because it's barely worth calling anecdotal evidence, if you're not going to call it outright bullshit. But because it supports his cherished position, He's up it like a rat up a rafter.